Dealing with your ego...

[geezer]

I was reading Skinter's thread on how frustrating it is to train with someone who has a big ego and is always trying to score hits, even if they are cheap shots and poor technique. We've all been through it. There's a time for being competitive and testing yourself. It's called sparring. There's also a time for cooperation in training. The way we train chi-sau in our group can vary in either direction. Usually there has to be a lot of cooperation to polish your technique and to learn how relax in order to respond effectively. Then we "free it up" to see how it goes under pressure. The problem is when your training partner is unwilling to do the cooperative phase of the training. Then, usually you get frustrated and respond in kind, giving hit for hit. It doesn't make for a good learning environment.

So, has this happened to you? If so, how did you handle it?

 

[Steve]

I was reading Skinter's thread on how frustrating it is to train with someone who has a big ego and is always trying to score hits, even if they are cheap shots and poor technique. We've all been through it. There's a time for being competitive and testing yourself. It's called sparring. There's also a time for cooperation in training. The way we train chi-sau in our group can vary in either direction. Usually there has to be a lot of cooperation to polish your technique and to learn how relax in order to respond effectively. Then we "free it up" to see how it goes under pressure. The problem is when your training partner is unwilling to do the cooperative phase of the training. Then, usually you get frustrated and respond in kind, giving hit for hit. It doesn't make for a good learning environment.

So, has this happened to you? If so, how did you handle it?

You can't control someone else's behavior and trying to do so will only lead to frustration. Honestly, it's going to depend upon the specific person. If this is just one thing the guy does that's kind of annoying, I might work with him and try to lead by example. If he's a dink all the time and in many ways, it's really something that the instructor should deal with.

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

I think we all trained we people like that In the begining of my training I used to get pissed and started hitting cheap shots back or I used to tell them that in my opinion that is not the point of Chi Sao... But you soon realise that some people are just like that and it's not much you can do about it. It doesn't bother me anymore I just look at it as something else to train. The bottom line is that you want to be able to defend yourself against sped up attacks and cheap shots too, right? Now if you can't do that in a relatively controled enviroment like Chi Sao you for sure can't do it in a streetfight

So if the guy does Chi Sao with me with good WC energy I consider it a good training. If the guy constantly speeds up and tryes to make cheap shots I don't realy consider it a good training but I still consider it training and I don't get unnerved anymore.

Sparring is diffrent tho...

 

[paulus]

There are 2 scenarios for me:

1) getting slapped by cheap shots. For instance if your partner gets a reckless shot in that leaves them open and vulnerable, but you don't notice the opening and they are lucky you don't take advantage. i.e. they were careless and lucky. This gets me riled if it happens over and over again and I tend to react badly. The chi sau just degenerates into a slug fest and all technique is gone. Last time it happened, as was suggested in the other thread, I decided that next time I'd forget attacking completely and just focus on flowing around my partner with good technique. I've not had chance to try that out yet.

2) getting slapped by genuinely good strikes. i.e. partner uses good technique, has better footwork etc. This I don't mind at all. I can generally keep balanced, keep my emotions in check and just keep trying. At the weekend I was slapped silly by several senior students (not at the same time!), but that was ok because I could appreciate their skill and my mistakes.

 

[seasoned]

Everyone, at one time or another, may try this. It’s just human nature to push the envelope, from time to time. J But the one that consistently does it, will eventually will learn a very hard lesson indeed. :asian:

 

[qwksilver61]

I got rid of him,I was told by a Sifu to keep this cat at a distance,apparently I wasn't the only one who could see he as a problem.
Too agreeable.... a "yes man" so I turned the tables and asked him to explain as best as he could, what I had just explained.After a year-and-a-half he produced no results...I could not even train myself with this guy even after a sharp tongue lash by my Sihing.He knew better, I told him not to screw around trying to push buttons "what if I do this?or this?" I pinned both his arms & nailed his *** bending him over backwards to the floor,another time...I deflected every single one of his kicks(hands behind back)....skipped forward and delivered a knee to his abdomen"how much proof do you need?I asked. Frustrated, I said "no more"
When I hit him with an *** chewing and payment for my personal time and commitment he backed off.End of story....

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Sounds like he got you pissed.

Sometimes when I run into arrogance I usually go to defense mode only an continous block,deflect and redirect their force. I use Jut Sau to jerk them off balance. An sometimes I use hard pak sau's on their guards. Sometimes for body strikes I just let them have it so they can get it out of their system. After awhile they realize they are no longer doing Chi Sau but merely striking. Then sometimes the arrogant gets it right. I have a Sihing who hates loose. So eventually if I block his strikes too much and strike him too much he uses alot force and power to get into my defenses. i remeber one time He did a hard and fast pak da to my face. I simply smiled and remember to tuck my lip in.

Ha Ha.

I got rid of him,I was told by a Sifu to keep this cat at a distance,apparently I wasn't the only one who could see he as a problem.
Too agreeable.... a "yes man" so I turned the tables and asked him to explain as best as he could, what I had just explained.After a year-and-a-half he produced no results...I could not even train myself with this guy even after a sharp tongue lash by my Sihing.He knew better, I told him not to screw around trying to push buttons "what if I do this?or this?" I pinned both his arms & nailed his *** bending him over backwards to the floor,another time...I deflected every single one of his kicks(hands behind back)....skipped forward and delivered a knee to his abdomen"how much proof do you need?I asked. Frustrated, I said "no more"
When I hit him with an *** chewing and payment for my personal time and commitment he backed off.End of story....

 

[mook jong man]

I was reading Skinter's thread on how frustrating it is to train with someone who has a big ego and is always trying to score hits, even if they are cheap shots and poor technique. We've all been through it. There's a time for being competitive and testing yourself. It's called sparring. There's also a time for cooperation in training. The way we train chi-sau in our group can vary in either direction. Usually there has to be a lot of cooperation to polish your technique and to learn how relax in order to respond effectively. Then we "free it up" to see how it goes under pressure. The problem is when your training partner is unwilling to do the cooperative phase of the training. Then, usually you get frustrated and respond in kind, giving hit for hit. It doesn't make for a good learning environment.

So, has this happened to you? If so, how did you handle it?

We have a technical word for people such as this in Australia , we call them WANKERS .

If you are lucky enough to train in a big group , then I think it best to avoid them and train with some one else when you are trying to learn a new technique .
But when it comes to sparring , then by all means seek them out and give as good as you get .

 

[bully]

+1 MJM.

Had a guy who used to make himself look good by sparring with new students and lower grades.

He only turned up once every 4 or 5 weeks.

After 18 months of training 4-5 times per week us lower grades were not so low anymore.

Nothing was said amongst the 5 of us, but one sparring session we gave the guy back what he deserved and then some. It was funny how it worked out, we all knew what to do without speaking about it. Once one of us had finished sparring with him, the next went and picked him as their next partner.

Now perhaps we shouldnt have sunk to his level, but hey we were all in our 20's and invincible.

Now?

I would find it amusing and avoid him/her if possible.

 

[mook jong man]

+1 MJM.

Had a guy who used to make himself look good by sparring with new students and lower grades.

He only turned up once every 4 or 5 weeks.

After 18 months of training 4-5 times per week us lower grades were not so low anymore.

Nothing was said amongst the 5 of us, but one sparring session we gave the guy back what he deserved and then some. It was funny how it worked out, we all knew what to do without speaking about it. Once one of us had finished sparring with him, the next went and picked him as their next partner.

Now perhaps we shouldnt have sunk to his level, but hey we were all in our 20's and invincible.

Now?

I would find it amusing and avoid him/her if possible.

Ha , sounds like a tag team match to me , except he had no one on his team.

 

[skinters]

We have a technical word for people such as this in Australia , we call them WANKERS .

pmsl

 

[profesormental]

Greetings.

Interestingly enough, these people can be toned down by a very high level skill... so that their minds open for a bit and you can hammer in the importance of training to get better instead of training to beat people up and feel good about yourself for a bit...

If you improve and look for improvement and try new things, many times you'll pay for it... that is experience. You will learn what not to do, and how to make what you do even more effective.

For example, in Chi Sao I was playing around to set up circular strikes, like hooks and hammerfists in a way that couldn't be stopped. So I was working to open up doors and sometimes got caught, my student took my center and I got nailed...

Eventually I got to do it, yet it cost me a few hits. Much fun!

Also, the intention to hurt and win is different from the intention of trying things out and learning.

Again, enough time learning and thinking about learning and training for learning will lead to much more rapid development than the wankers... and the last laugh will be sweet indeed!!

Hope this helps!

Juan M. Mercado
Wing Chun Gong Fu Si Fu

Tomorrow I'm going for uppercuts and something looney like overhead vertical downward hook, just to see what happens! And just for fun! (I'll wear a helment... I think I'll get broken!)

Yes, I've tried a lot of stupid stuff, and it is funny whether it works or not!

 

[skinters]

this kind of thing has interested me for years and not just from a martial art perspective .i write a lot of my thoughts on this down so i can keep it as a reference.its intresting so see how my ideas have changed over the years.
i found this,which i had written when i first started thinking along these lines.

Is it possible to face an apponent with complete freedom and ease ? to completely turn every notion about martial art and fighting totally on its head ? forget winning or losing, pride, and ego and to honestly let go of it ?.
If you face your apponent and you don’t think of it as beating the hell out of him or the chance of you getting hurt,and not of winning or losing from a sport perspective, what happens ? what does it become?
By thinking this way does the will and determination vanish? I mean whats the point of fighting if its not to win or just be a case of surviving.
Is it possible to feel some sort of compassion and respect when fighting ?. your apponent may be feeling anger and fear and the desire to win but can the fight unfold without any on this on your part?



i was trying to get to a point where fighting was just as normal as breathing,and i reacted,in a calm measured way.not passive but quietly determined .
in me a lot of it comes down to the fear of losing,when i can accept that i can and will lose,maybe i can reach another level.

 

[KamonGuy2]

I was reading Skinter's thread on how frustrating it is to train with someone who has a big ego and is always trying to score hits, even if they are cheap shots and poor technique. We've all been through it. There's a time for being competitive and testing yourself. It's called sparring. There's also a time for cooperation in training. The way we train chi-sau in our group can vary in either direction. Usually there has to be a lot of cooperation to polish your technique and to learn how relax in order to respond effectively. Then we "free it up" to see how it goes under pressure. The problem is when your training partner is unwilling to do the cooperative phase of the training. Then, usually you get frustrated and respond in kind, giving hit for hit. It doesn't make for a good learning environment.

So, has this happened to you? If so, how did you handle it?

I don't know. I'm so good and so amazing that I've never been in that situation lol

If your partner does not co-operate during drills etc , don't train with them
It is dangerous and pointless if you are learning a set pattern and your partner is trying to do random moves/attacks

There is a time and place for that - feeding techniques when your partner can throw in any attack. Or sparring. Or even chi sao

But if you are doing a set drill against a straight punch just to learn the structure etc and someone throws in a hook then they aren't worth training with. I am not talking about accidental slip ups - we all do that. But if it is a deliberate attempt to 'catch you out' then personally I would find them after the lesson and 'have a word'. It is easy to let it slide, but my worry would be that they would keep doing it to other lower ranked students in class who wouldn't/couldn't speak up

In chi sao, when people do that I don't let it bother me too much. You are going to take slaps and taps in the eventual confrontation in the street so look at it as conditioning

Plus, they shouldn't really get through anyway, even if it is only a tap, so try and get to the level where they can't do that and you'll be a great practitioner

 

[Seeker]

Lately, my dilemma has been dealing with newbie know-it-alls.

I've been attending the advanced class for the past three months, but lately I've been going to the beginner's because of my work schedule. I have had three different encounters with three different people who are about a month or two in.

They seem to feel the need to correct everyone on everything. Normally, that would be cool since they probably believe that I am new and trying to help out, but once they figure out I've been there awhile, they do not let up on making corrections on everything I do it seems, in fact it seems to exacerbate their need to (unfounded) troubleshoot me on my stance, position of my fook sau... you name it. Nothing is good enough for these instant Sifus. At one instance our (real) Sifu interjected and told one of them that so-and-so's techniques are fine, but still they will not relent.

How do you politely tell someone you're not following their advice without sounding like a know-it-all yourself? I know I am not flawless and I don't mind being shown the error of my ways, but I cannot stand being hen-pecked by people, especially when they're doing it just for the sake of... whatever.

 

[geezer]

Is it possible to face an apponent with complete freedom and ease?

By thinking this way does the will and determination vanish?

Is it possible to feel some sort of compassion and respect when fighting? ...your apponent may be feeling anger and fear and the desire to win but can the fight unfold without any on this on your part?

...i was trying to get to a point where fighting was just as normal as breathing,and i reacted,in a calm measured way.not passive but quietly determined .

Sounds pretty "Zen" to me, but I don't know about how realistic it is to try fighting with such a detached yet resolute frame of mind. At least one of my instructors believes that a certain amount of attitude, or what Bruce Lee referred to as "emotional content", is essential. Certainly, our bodies evolved a "fight or flight" response, in which our emotional, instinctive brain takes over, and our bodies surge with an adrenalin rush, because it gave us a survival advantage. In a real fight, I suspect a harnessed and well directed rage will usually get better results than enlightened detachment.

On the other hand, when training with real wankers in class, I find it helpful to adopt the more detached frame of mind. In other words, if you have to train with "tools", try to use them as tools for your training.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Skinters: Interesting thoughts. Sounds like Wu Wei? are you familiar with that?

I think it will be decades before I reach the level to winning with out focusing on winning. In a fight I thinking about hurting my attacker, breaking limbs, Getting a good right hook to knock him out. How to deliver swift kicks to his diaphram or blooding his nose. I thinking about how to hurt him fast an end the fight. I do not think about being not winning or being okay with loosing or getting hurt. I am not there yet. Not sure if it would work for me yet!


Seeker: I know what you mean. That sounds pretty awful. But What I would do is say them privately that I feel your giving me more critism than anyone else. I feel kinda of discouraged with too much criticism. Please tone down a little. If they refuse. I would simply try to put my mind elsewhere. Go to class to practice and increase my skill. An when they give me corrections. I simply would say thank you an smile. The Sifu knows you don't need it. Its just a constant irritation I know how you feel. But it could be worse. They could just ignore you. I had same issue concerning scripture study with some older guys at this one synagogue. But that didn't last long. I think it was the fact that I was a guy in my 20's who knew as much as they did about Torah if not more. This can sometime make people feel like they got something to prove and since they are above you in title only they want to have you submit to them. No problem. You can be big brother. I will cowtow. But when it comes time to spar I will show you I am big brother in fighting skills. An in instruction I cowtow. Sparring you cowtow. And back and forth.

this kind of thing has interested me for years and not just from a martial art perspective .i write a lot of my thoughts on this down so i can keep it as a reference.its intresting so see how my ideas have changed over the years.
i found this,which i had written when i first started thinking along these lines.

Is it possible to face an apponent with complete freedom and ease ? to completely turn every notion about martial art and fighting totally on its head ? forget winning or losing, pride, and ego and to honestly let go of it ?.
If you face your apponent and you don’t think of it as beating the hell out of him or the chance of you getting hurt,and not of winning or losing from a sport perspective, what happens ? what does it become?
By thinking this way does the will and determination vanish? I mean whats the point of fighting if its not to win or just be a case of surviving.
Is it possible to feel some sort of compassion and respect when fighting ?. your apponent may be feeling anger and fear and the desire to win but can the fight unfold without any on this on your part?



i was trying to get to a point where fighting was just as normal as breathing,and i reacted,in a calm measured way.not passive but quietly determined .
in me a lot of it comes down to the fear of losing,when i can accept that i can and will lose,maybe i can reach another level.

 

[mook jong man]

Lately, my dilemma has been dealing with newbie know-it-alls.

I've been attending the advanced class for the past three months, but lately I've been going to the beginner's because of my work schedule. I have had three different encounters with three different people who are about a month or two in.

They seem to feel the need to correct everyone on everything. Normally, that would be cool since they probably believe that I am new and trying to help out, but once they figure out I've been there awhile, they do not let up on making corrections on everything I do it seems, in fact it seems to exacerbate their need to (unfounded) troubleshoot me on my stance, position of my fook sau... you name it. Nothing is good enough for these instant Sifus. At one instance our (real) Sifu interjected and told one of them that so-and-so's techniques are fine, but still they will not relent.

How do you politely tell someone you're not following their advice without sounding like a know-it-all yourself? I know I am not flawless and I don't mind being shown the error of my ways, but I cannot stand being hen-pecked by people, especially when they're doing it just for the sake of... whatever.

Oh God I hate those people they are a real pain in the **** aren't they . They do more talking than training , and you've got three of them you say . Thats outrageous ,if they 're doing that and they are a lower rank than you .

At our school you might get a bit of that from somebody in your grade , or higher , but not some one lower .
Do you have badges or sashes in your school or different coloured t shirts , something to denote your grade or rank .

I think these things can really help knock that sort of nonsense on the head because straight away you can see what grade they are and if they have done a grading test and are higher than you and further along the path then you can't really be commentating on their techniques.

If you don't have a system like that where rank or grade is displayed on your shirt , then I think your Sifu has to take these people quietly aside and say listen here , newbie , you have been here five minutes , I want you take a big , long sip from a can of shut the hell up and just train .

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Okay that was funny...wow you tell it MJM...lol...wow...

funny ha ha...

Oh God I hate those people they are a real pain in the **** aren't they . They do more talking than training , and you've got three of them you say . Thats outrageous ,if they 're doing that and they are a lower rank than you .

At our school you might get a bit of that from somebody in your grade , or higher , but not some one lower .
Do you have badges or sashes in your school or different coloured t shirts , something to denote your grade or rank .

I think these things can really help knock that sort of nonsense on the head because straight away you can see what grade they are and if they have done a grading test and are higher than you and further along the path then you can't really be commentating on their techniques.

If you don't have a system like that where rank or grade is displayed on your shirt , then I think your Sifu has to take these people quietly aside and say listen here , newbie , you have been here five minutes , I want you take a big , long sip from a can of shut the hell up and just train .

 

[Brian King]

Seeker wrote:

“How do you politely tell someone you're not following their advice without sounding like a know-it-all yourself? I know I am not flawless and I don't mind being shown the error of my ways, but I cannot stand being hen-pecked by people, especially when they're doing it just for the sake of... whatever.”

I do not do Wing Chun so your mileage may vary. This is common in many of the arts. The new people are often nervous and this makes them ‘chatty’ and to help themselves get over the anxiety they try to help others so as to take their mind off of their own confusions. For others it is simply social posturing as they try to establish their position in the pack. Others are insecure and to cover up the insecurity they try to impose their will

There are different ways of handling this depending on the context. Some examples: One is to ignore hem and do the movement as you have been taught or how you are exploring it. Another is to try it their way to see if they are onto something that perhaps you did not previously catch/ and to see if you can feel what is ‘wrong’ with their suggestion compared to how you are doing it. If you both enjoy a little meathead hard type work as them to show you again and blast thru them exploiting the weakness and massaging your own ego in the process…not very nice but fun sometimes. Another way perhaps a bit more subversive is to merely state that it is interesting and thank them, while also stating that what they are ‘teaching’ is different than what sifu is teaching and before they can reply ask your sifu over and ask your partner to again explain the ‘proper’ way of doing it. For giggles you can phrase the question to your sifu so that the ‘teacher’ gets to demonstrate why his way is better than the sifu’s way. Something along the lines of Sifu- (insert training partner’s name) says that the proper way of doing (insert whatever you two have been working on here) and that the way you showed me is weak? What is the difference in the ways and is his way truly stronger (act innocent here) *Warning before using this make sure that you are indeed doing whatever the way that you have been taught and that the other ‘teachers’ advice is not good.

Good luck
Regards
Brian King