DC Police Plan Checkpoints

[5-0 Kenpo]

Wow, I understand about not wanting to live in a totalitarian state. I do disagree with the point of turning away people who “dont have a reason to be there.”

But I wonder how many of you are cops?

It amazes me how quickly people jump on the profiling band wagon. Let me inform you all of something. Most police work (get ready for it....) is based on some type of profiling. TA DA!

And you know what else. If it werent for profiling, a lot of criminals would not be arrested.

For example, in the area where I patrol, MOST of the people that buy, sell and use crack cocaine are black. So if I see them, attended to with other obvious characteristics (see how I am building a profile here) I can reasonably assume they are a crackhead.

Most people who use meth in my area are white. If I see them there with the obvious characteristic (again, profiling) I can reasonably assume that they are methheads.

I could go on, but I think you see the point.

Do I think that the police should be able, or justified in stopping people solely because of their race, absolutely not. But it can be considered as one factor among many (see above examples), that make such profiling reasonable. Are we gonna miss the white guy crackhead based on these statistics. Absolutely. But in order to be efficient, and clean up the most amount, before we start on the exceptions, it is what is necessary.


BTW, I dont know what neighborhood you live in that neighborhood watch works in, but, and this comes from admittedly anecdotal experience, they tend not to be so effective when gang/drug homicides are common. Thats because people are more concerned with self-preservation, then with other-people preservation.

 

[Big Don]

About profiling, every law enforcement agency uses some form of profiling for one reason: IT WORKS.
I had a call at work today to look for a "Tall Guy in a Blue Shirt".
I turned a slow cirlce and saw three tall mexican guys in 3 shades of blue and 3 types of blue shirts, 2 black guys and oh, 10 or so employees that fit the PC description I was given, which one was I supposed to look for?

 

[MJS]

Inevitably they will, of course. My point is that where the cops are turning people away due to evidence of guns/drugs/etc., there's less discretion and thus less likelihood of unfair profiling then where the deciding factor is whether the police think his reason for coming isn't good enough.

So to answer your question, I do think there's a difference between the two types of checks with respects to profiling. Bear in mind, even police officers who are just making a good faith effort to do their jobs can still engage in profiling where too much is left to their discretion. Imagine the following arguments if a checkpoint decision is challenged in court: "I found evidence of guns/drug paraphenelia/known gang symbols, so I turned them away" versus "He said he was visiting his brother, and I just didn't believe him."

My apologies for not replying to this point yesterday, but after seeing a few posts today, I started thinking a bit more on the profiling issue. In your opinion, do you feel that profiling will be a big issue with this? I mean, if its a predominately black neighborhood, the majority of cars going thru will probably be operated by black drivers. Could white drivers pass thru? Probably. In another post, you mentioned drugs and things openly visable to the officer. What about the things that are not visable? Many criminals are dumb, but I don't think they're all so dumb as to leave a gun in plain sight, the same with drugs.

So, as I said in another post, this will be a damned if you do/damned if you don't situation. The area has high crime. The cops respond but its a response that is drawing heat from civil rights groups, residents, etc.

 

[elder999]

I mean, if its a predominately black neighborhood, the majority of cars going thru will probably be operated by black drivers. Could white drivers pass thru? Probably.

More,like,"iprobably not.

Most urban police forces are very suspicious of white people in "ethnic" neighborhoods--the assumption is that they are there to buy drugs.

Who can say how this is being played, though......

 

[MJS]

More,like,"iprobably not.

Most urban police forces are very suspicious of white people in "ethnic" neighborhoods--the assumption is that they are there to buy drugs.

Who can say how this is being played, though......

I actually touched on some of this in my earlier posts. I think that you hit the nail on the head though.

I work as a dispatcher for a PD here in CT. Cops run plates all the time. What makes me laugh is when they run plates and they come back to people who dont even live in the city and the area they're coming from makes one wonder....why are they there. Someone driving a fancy car, thru a known bad section of the city...hmmm.....and sure, could they be passing thru, lost, trying to get onto the highway, etc.? Why of course, but if I had to wager a bet, I'd say the odds of that are slim.

Many of the cops that I work with are assigned to the same area everyday. They get to know the area, they get to know the people, who the bad guys are. Pretty much every time a cop sees a person of interest, I'm asked to check for any warrants. Profiling? In a way yes, but due to the fact that they're known by the cops, you can't blame them. As I said earlier...if you dont want to draw attention to yourself, don't do things that have a high percentage of drawing that attention.

 

[Archangel M]

Given DC's anti-freedom measures like the handgun ban, I am not surprised. I am also not surprised that it will be poor minorities, as usual, who are affected by this policy. I would also not be surprised if it did nothing to stop crime.

Well..Ive spent a considerable ammount of time in the area and just want to say that the victims and neighborhoods effected are "poor minority". And as an aside, the DC police force is pretty heavily minority, so I would hesitate to put a white cops vs. minority spin on this one.

Of course thats separate from the constitutionality of these checkpoints. Im not decided on the "rightness or wrongness" of that one yet.

 

[Errant108]

You guys are having a huge hypothetical discussion on a situation you really don't know much about.

 

[Empty Hands]

You guys are having a huge hypothetical discussion on a situation you really don't know much about.

Welcome to the internet, my friend!

 

[Errant108]

It's not a dump truck.

 

[MJS]

You guys are having a huge hypothetical discussion on a situation you really don't know much about.

You're right. All we have to go off of is what we read from various sources, ie: the paper, the net, etc. Are we getting the whole story? No. This, as well as many other topics both in the study and in other areas, are simply opinions of the various members.

 

[jkembry]

I have to admit that I am surprised to see this posted here...but I am a new arrival. I live in the DC Metro area and I am also retired Navy. When I see thing such as this, I wonder why I spent the 20 + years in the Navy. this to me reeks of the old regimes in the former Soviet Union, or Nazi Germany and is a kick in the face of all that I believe this country stands for. I don't want to or believe I should have to carry papers everywhere I travel around my neighborhood...but since this has happened I believe a dangerous precedent has been set. I hope that this is indeed a single event...but given the track record of the 'Patriot Act' - parts of which I strongly disagree with - I am sure it will spread.

- Jeff -

 

[GradualProgression]

Wow there are alot of slightly silly responces in here. USSR? I dont want to carry indetification papers with me?

Hardly.

These are areas where crime is rampant and violent. The only people who should be worried are the people who are up to no good. As far as identification goes, anyone who is driving carries identification papers with them, its called your Drivers Liscense which you had to provide multiple documents proving your identity to get in thr first place. Let's also remember it is against the law not to have your current address on said identification.

I sincerly do not understand why any law abiding citizen who follows the rules and updates their DL would have a problem with this. Let's face it the Police department has every right to do this and for good reason! If you have no business in a high crime area WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO BE THERE!

Come on people this is for protection and only troubles those up to no good anyway!

 

[Empty Hands]

I sincerly do not understand why any law abiding citizen who follows the rules and updates their DL would have a problem with this.

Because it just doesn't end with those nasty poor criminals you don't like. These actions set precedents, and power given to the government is rarely if ever taken back. If this becomes established practice, it WILL spread. It will become established for things you don't agree with, but by then it will be too late. Everyone will be conditioned to it, and the powers that be can point to the past and say "We've been doing it for years and you never complained before!"

"Papiere, bitte."

 

[GradualProgression]

"Since April 1, the Trinidad neighborhood has had seven homicides, 16 robberies and 20 assaults with dangerous weapons, according to police data, the newspaper reported."

Doesn't something have to be done? You realize Phildelphia started the "stop and frisk" policy planning months ago and the crime rate has dropped drastically. The governor has stated that is there is a spike in crime they will take up these measures too. The only people who are truly complaining are the residents there who aren't effected because they live there. Also these aren't continous checkpoints they are being done at randoms times over the next 5 days and the cops aren't stopping pedestrians. I believe the city is sincerly doing something in an attempt to stop this horrible outbreak of crime. This on community, Trinidad, has had 22 deaths due to crime THIS YEAR!! IT'S ONLY JUNE!

You say it will only set a precedence for others to do. Well guess what!? If something drastic isn't done it will only set a precedence for crime and it will spread until you have people shooting eachother outside of your front door!

And for the NAACP to say that Trinidad was targeted due to the racial profile of the residents is simply stupid and a bad attempt to create more racial tension in a racially tense community. This is a crime thing not a color thing.

 

[Errant108]

The residents want the cops there.

This is a temporary measure. Not permanent.

This was also done in NYC several years ago. Same situation. The residents wanted the police there.

This is not a first step toward your paranoid fears.

Why don't you move to Trinidad and then tell me you don't want cops there.

How many rich white Americans live in gated communities patrolled by paid security guards?

The poor cannot afford that, and thus become victims of crime waves like this.

 

[tellner]

Raw Story and the Washington Post report that the checkpoints have been abandoned under pressure from the public and civil liberty advocates. The plan to ask housing residents to submit to "voluntary" warrantless searches has also been suspended. Plans for a London-style network of thousands of constantly-monitored CCTVs are still on track.

Fewer jack boots on the ground but more Big Brother. Yippee.
:barf:

 

[newGuy12]

If you live there or have a legit reason, then there doesnt seem to be any worry. If you're a good citizen, live in the area, and are not in that area to cause problems, there shouldnt be any worry.

And if you have nothing to hide, then you won't worry about eavesdropping on your phone.

This is all EXTREMELY unamerican.

This is the direction that the Empire is headed, though. If the people of this country have to choose between freedom and safety (there's no such choice, but it certainly is proposed that way). They will choose safety (security theatre, actually, not true safety).

They will get what they deserve. Very few societies deserve freedom. We in the US do not. Not anymore.

 

[newGuy12]

I have mixed feelings. I'm glad they're taking action, but...I don't want to have to carry identification papers for travel within my own country.

Hehe

How about an embedded rfid chip. That should make us all nice and "safe" (again -- the illusion of safety).

 

[jks9199]

Raw Story and the Washington Post report that the checkpoints have been abandoned under pressure from the public and civil liberty advocates. The plan to ask housing residents to submit to "voluntary" warrantless searches has also been suspended. Plans for a London-style network of thousands of constantly-monitored CCTVs are still on track.

Fewer jack boots on the ground but more Big Brother. Yippee.
:barf:

Actually, I do believe the rash of shootings and attacks elsewhere in the District while all the attention was being put into Trinidad was a little bit of a factor...