DC Cop brings gun to snowball fight.

[Carol]

Remember people, I am only offering a possible reason for his actions. I do not know whether my hypotesis was also his reasoning. What is irritating, however, is the prejudgement on the basis of a video.

Now, do I think he made a tactical error. Absolutely. But it is not one that warrants such vitriol by the public, though I may understand it. The public has very little, if any, understanding of what is involved in police use-of-force situations, and therefore make judgements out of ignorance.

The ignorant public of whom you so disdainfully speak of caught a veteran detective behaving badly and caught highly educated (Juris Doctorate from Maryland), high ranking (Assistant Chief) brass in a lie.

Think about that before making a pandemic denigration about us, mmmkay?

EDIT: I apologize, especially to you 5-0, for my gruff tone in this post. For reasons completely unrelated to the subject at hand, I'm not in the best temperment at the moment and I'm afraid my rotten mood coming across in my writing.

 

[Archangel M]

While I think it was not the smartest thing to do, I also think it's getting way overblown. If he had actually pointed it at someone I would be more concerned.

 

[Carol]

While I think it was not the smartest thing to do, I also think it's getting way overblown. If he had actually pointed it at someone I would be more concerned.

Agreed, but the story doesn't have the legs it does simply because a few officers of the MPD made a call that, under the microscope, proved not to be the best call. If the story was about an officer getting free coffee from a convenience store, the story may not even make the 11pm local newscast.

The story has the legs because it illustrates issues that some citizens have with police coverage...and it happened in the most over-hyped media market in the country.

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

The detective behaved more like hothead that got pissed because his pwecious wheels were hit by a snowball, rather than behaving like a mature, responsible 25 year veteran of the force.

Ok. So how many "mature, responsible 25 year veterans of the force" do you know, and know well enough to be able to say what their reaction would be in this situation (though not through 20/20 hindsight)? And even then, where do you get your expertise to be able to make such an opinion?

And tell me, to what specific actions are you objecting? Saying that he acted like a hothead is all well and good. That's your opinion, and you are entitled to it. But it doesn't make for good debate.

 

[The Last Legionary]

Is almost causing a riot what we want in a 25 yr veteran?

 

[Sukerkin]

Not at all a helpful tone to be taking, Kenpo.

Carol's opinion doesn't require law enforcement experience to make. She's one of 'your' clients and how she feels about how those enforcing the laws carries weight regardless (given that, as far as i know) she's not a criminal.

This is not anything I want to really get my feet into as I'll just get told to "butt out Limey!" but when those upon whose cooperation your job depends show powerful negative responses to something maybe it's a good idea to listen?

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

Not at all a helpful tone to be taking, Kenpo.

Carol's opinion doesn't require law enforcement experience to make. She's one of 'your' clients and how she feels about how those enforcing the laws carries weight regardless (given that, as far as i know) she's not a criminal.

This is not anything I want to really get my feet into as I'll just get told to "butt out Limey!" but when those upon whose cooperation your job depends show powerful negative responses to something maybe it's a good idea to listen?

Thank you. And I'll forgive your Limey-ness.

The point I was trying to make, perhaps badly, was that having an emotional reaction to a video, especially in light of a law enforcement professional giving you a perfectly plausible explanation for the actions is not helpful in a debate.

She made an opinion about what a "mature, responsible 25 year veteran of the force" in their right mind would do. I don't think that asking her how she has come to that understanding of what such a person should do is inappropriate. And that's why I also asked her what specifically she objected to. Without knowing that, what she said is a rant, and of no use in a debate.

As I said, having an opinion is fine, but it does nothing to enhance a debate.

The fact of the matter is that all police uses-of-force can look bad without proper context. As professionals, it is our responsibility to make decisions based on the law, our training and experience, and department policy. It is the legal, training and policy aspects of this issue which should be subject to debate and to which the public should have input. You cannot deny a person their experiences. You can only ask if their behavior is consistent within the framework of the other three. If not, then appropriate actions against the detective should be taken.

But as I stated before, just watching a video doesn't tell the whole story.

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

Is almost causing a riot what we want in a 25 yr veteran?

Is he causing the riot, or are the people who are engaging in an illegal act, and then violently responding to a police presence causing the riot?

Of course, I'm guessing that your answer is likely to be the cop. I guess we will have to agree to disagree, though you might want to take a look at my posts regarding the legal aspects of what he did, and how they were justified, if a bit reckless.

 

[Sukerkin]

{nods with understanding and agreement} That is a most true and undisputable point in your penultimate paragraph (in post#67).

Thanks indeed for clarifying and elaborating and also for your forgiveness and :thumbsup:

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

Food for thought for those who want to judge based on video alone:

http://blutube.policeone.com/Clip.aspx?key=BC26982214F7DEA2

I will try to embed the video a little later, when I learn how.

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

Try as I might, even after talking to an ITC guy, still don't know how to embed it, so I guess you'll just have to go to the link and see the video.

 

[dnovice]

He was trying to flaunt his authority plain and simple. If he really felt that the two factions engaging themselves were gang members, why wouldn't he simply call for back up and wait... Its what a nyc cop, or any other cop i hope, would do when he is outnumbered by hostiles to degree the DC cop was. So suffice it to say he 1) didn't think they were a threat, 2) he thinks he's rambo. I doubt he thinks he's rambo.

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

He was trying to flaunt his authority plain and simple. If he really felt that the two factions engaging themselves were gang members, why wouldn't he simply call for back up and wait... Its what a nyc cop, or any other cop i hope, would do when he is outnumbered by hostiles to degree the DC cop was. So suffice it to say he 1) didn't think they were a threat, 2) he thinks he's rambo. I doubt he thinks he's rambo.

Who said gang members? What about just a fight. I've seen fights spontaneously erupt for the smallest reasons.

And even the LEO's here said that tactically he shouldn't have done what he did. I will leave you with the fact that after being out of the field for a while (he is a detective), his tactical prowess is gonna go out the window.

 

[Tez3]

Who said gang members? What about just a fight. I've seen fights spontaneously erupt for the smallest reasons.

And even the LEO's here said that tactically he shouldn't have done what he did. I will leave you with the fact that after being out of the field for a while (he is a detective), his tactical prowess is gonna go out the window.

We have fights that do that, we send in the Royal Military Police, such is their presence that the fighting spontaneously stops the minute they turn up....... as everyone regroups and charges them instead, it does your heart good to see it.

 

[xJOHNx]

Who said gang members? What about just a fight. I've seen fights spontaneously erupt for the smallest reasons.

And even the LEO's here said that tactically he shouldn't have done what he did. I will leave you with the fact that after being out of the field for a while (he is a detective), his tactical prowess is gonna go out the window.

I go to underground shows with up to 300 people in small venue's. Last 2 years there was 1 fight.

Two sides of the medallion

 

[jks9199]

Try as I might, even after talking to an ITC guy, still don't know how to embed it, so I guess you'll just have to go to the link and see the video.

I don't think you can embed it here. That sort of thing is limited a bit because it's easy to end up with a hot linking situation, and site policy generally forbids hotlinking.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Our current setup doesn't allow that site to embed (we have to hard code per site). I'll shortly be doing a major upgrade though that might add that ability (still reading through all the new bits).

Thanks for the link.

 

[Carol]

Thank you. And I'll forgive your Limey-ness.

The point I was trying to make, perhaps badly, was that having an emotional reaction to a video, especially in light of a law enforcement professional giving you a perfectly plausible explanation for the actions is not helpful in a debate.

The explanation you gave was inconsistent with comments from the Chief of Police of the MPD that were indirectly referenced to earlier in the thread.

Specifically, here is a post from BigDon, it was made before I noticed any of your contributions in the thread so I am not sure if you saw this.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1251044&postcount=33

She made an opinion about what a "mature, responsible 25 year veteran of the force" in their right mind would do. I don't think that asking her how she has come to that understanding of what such a person should do is inappropriate. And that's why I also asked her what specifically she objected to. Without knowing that, what she said is a rant, and of no use in a debate.

The fact of the matter is that all police uses-of-force can look bad without proper context. As professionals, it is our responsibility to make decisions based on the law, our training and experience, and department policy. It is the legal, training and policy aspects of this issue which should be subject to debate and to which the public should have input. You cannot deny a person their experiences. You can only ask if their behavior is consistent within the framework of the other three. If not, then appropriate actions against the detective should be taken.

But as I stated before, just watching a video doesn't tell the whole story.

You're implying that I made up my mind just from watching a video.

However, please note that there is more content here than just a video.

For example, a Google news search on "DC snowball fight" returns over a thousand hits.

The post from BigDon that I referenced above is a link to a Washington Post article, which links to another Washington Post article. The latter contains the full public statement by the Metropolitan Police Department's Chief of Police.

Here is the link for convenience, it can be found many other places on the web as well.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/crime-scene/the-district/dc-police-chief-laniers-statem.html

Chief Lanier has stated that the detective got out of the car in response to the snowballs hitting the vehicle:

It is very obvious to me that the officer pulled his service weapon in response to the snowballs hitting his vehicle. I have no doubt about this, nor has the officer denied the accusations.

Chief Lanier on the detective's behaviour:

Let me be very clear in stating that I believe the actions of the officer were totally inappropriate! In no way, should he have handled the situation in this manner.

Chief Lanier did not care for the overhyped coverage...

...it does not sit well with me that the negative actions of one officer has become “viral” during a time when so many officers have done so much good.

...but encouraged the videos and feedback from the public.

The video clips and the number of witnesses willing to come forward have proven a point I have reiterated, you are the additional eyes and ears in the community and your feedback in solving criminal complaints are crucial.

My office is receptive to this kind of information.

 

[Gordon Nore]

This is not anything I want to really get my feet into as I'll just get told to "butt out Limey!" ...

Sorry for the thread drift, but I couldn't let this pass.

Suke, you've alluded to getting your knuckles rapped in the past for commenting on US politics. Apart from the fact that this thread is in The Study -- not the US Poli sub-forum -- as I perceive it, MT is essentially international, even though it originates in the USA, by virtue of the fact that it's on the WWW.

I'm sure if he were so inclined, Bob could lock people out of political discussion based on geographic location, but I don't see that happening. Occasionally, Aussies, Brits and Canucks might be seen as telling Americans how to do things, but heck, it's not like America or Americans are never known for telling the rest of the world what to do.

It bothers me no end that someone of your reputation (both in rep points and personal character) should feel constrained from voicing an opinion. I've seen entire discussions of health care in the US Politics forum built upon mis-information about Brit and Canadian health insurance. Similarly, you, Tez and others have been there to correct mis-perceptions S/D rights in GB. And good on you for it.

Hell, it's a discussion forum. Let's discuss. Being thoughtful, critical, or even boldly opinionated are not tantamount to being disrespectful of others or their homelands. So speak up, Suke. I've got your six.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I'm sending all the Brits lemons and carbonated water this holiday. This way, they can be bubbly lemon n limeys. (7Up, Sprite, etc).