DC Cop brings gun to snowball fight.

[celtic_crippler]

Is a snowball deadly? :idunno:

Anyway... two words: Anger Management.

 

[SensibleManiac]

No a snowball isn't deadly, but a snowball fight of this magnitude could easily get out of hand and turn into a real fight.

I wasn't there so can't comment on all the details, put there could have been alot more involved here that could easily constitute disturbing the peace.

If you're walking down the street minding your own business and you get hit in the face hard by a snowball, that could be seen as assault.

Remember fun is fun when everyone involved is having fun, that doesn't give anyone the right to infringe on your personal space and well being in the name of fun.

 

[jks9199]

I think it's possible the Assistant Chief spoke before seeing all the video & photos. In some -- it does look like he had a radio or cell phone. But he shouldn't have made any sort of definitive statement before getting all the facts.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Lets look at one of the facts we do have..... Guy had a gun, clear as day, and some asshat still hit him deliberately with a snow ball. The situation had the potential to go south fast.

 

[CanuckMA]

Didn't the asshat hit the unmarked car of the off-duty cop?

Either way I look at it, the cop made a bonehead decision. Getting out of the unmarked car brandishing a gun was one. If he thought that the situation needed to be brought under control, don't you think asking for some uniformed backup staring down 200 people would be a reasonable thing to do?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Someone hit the car which pissed off the bonehead who stopped and got out waving a gun. He's lucky no one else there pulled theirs and dropped him.

 

[Gordon Nore]

Didn't the asshat hit the unmarked car of the off-duty cop?

Either way I look at it, the cop made a bonehead decision. Getting out of the unmarked car brandishing a gun was one. If he thought that the situation needed to be brought under control, don't you think asking for some uniformed backup staring down 200 people would be a reasonable thing to do?

I have to agree. Yes, a group of 200 people can get out of control. Introducing a lone gun into that situation does not seem sensible to me. He could have identified himself as an officer (since he was in street clothes and his personal vehicle), but in a crowd of 200 people chucking snowballs during a snow storm, who is going to hear it?

Then, you have other officers arriving (such as the uniform in the first video) who do not know that it is a police officer with a gun because he did not radio in that he was there and had his weapon out. If he perceived the situation to be a threat to public safety, he might have told someone.

 

[Carol]

Someone hit the car which pissed off the bonehead who stopped and got out waving a gun. He's lucky no one else there pulled theirs and dropped him.

Lucky? Only cops and criminals can carry in the district.

Decent residential neighborhood with a largely educated demographic...

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I thought they gave the folks in DC back their 2nd Amend rights?

 

[Carol]

I thought they gave the folks in DC back their 2nd Amend rights?

Hmm...

In practice? I'm honestly not sure.

 

[blindsage]

Did I say that?

No, of course you didn't, that's the point. The conversation isn't really about what you might do that would be totally justified and sensible, it's that this officer didn't do any of those things.

 

[blindsage]

So let me get this straight...

Cop driving through the neighborhood in a city known for its violence sees about 200 people in the street throwing snowballs at each other (what looks to be one factions vs. another) as well as some pushing and shoving.

Rather then driving blithely through, he stops, maybe at what he thinks is a major fight, with his gun drawn, stands next to his vehicle (rather calmly I think), gets on his police radio (ostensibly to call for assistance). Oh, and after he gets hit with several snowballs, still does not physically confront the crowd, as an "enraged" (to quote a report on foxnews.com) person might.

He stops, pulls his gun, and paces back and forth in front of his car and that's "calm"? Gets on his police radio to call for assistance? Who's assuming now? So far the reports all say the other officers showed up as a result of 911 calls about him, and pulled their guns when they arrived, only holstering them after recognizing him. And there's is clear video of the officer getting aggressive after the other cops show up.

I'm sorry, what is the problem here...???

The problem is though there is a lot still to figure out here, you are certainly looking at this with a slanted view.

I think some major assumptions are being made here:

Yes, there are.

1. The cop knew this was merely a snowball fight, and not a major fight or a brewing fight.

Major brawls start with snowball fight a lot where you live?

2. The cop only stopped because he was upset that a snowball hit his vehicle, otherwise he would have continued driving.

Possibly, but no other reasons have come forward yet, and he didn't ID himself.

3. That snowballs even hit his car. Nothing in the video that I have seen, nor any statement made by the officer, shows that.

There aren't any videos available for when his care stopped, but he definitely isn't acting calm as you claim in any of the ones available, and he doesn't engage in any appropriate actions if he stopped for law-enforcement reasons.

Now, do I know that this was this detective's reason for doing what he did? Nope. But how do you know why he did it either? Considering that he is a 25 year law enforcement veteran who has gone through an extensive background check at some point in his career, I will, from my limited perspective, give him the benefit of the doubt.

Good for you, I'm glad you have respect for LEOs, so do I. But that doesn't excuse bad behavior and fortunately not having concrete evidence of his motives doesn't undermine the video. You don't have to know motive if the actions are clear.

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

He stops, pulls his gun, and paces back and forth in front of his car and that's "calm"? Gets on his police radio to call for assistance? Who's assuming now? So far the reports all say the other officers showed up as a result of 911 calls about him, and pulled their guns when they arrived, only holstering them after recognizing him. And there's is clear video of the officer getting aggressive after the other cops show up.
[/quote}

Ok, being in a situation where there are people all around you, I would not stay in any one place. I would keep moving so as to watch my own back.

Tell me, why would anyone get on a police radio, which is clearly in evidence in the video? To ask his friends what he's doing for dinner? And not the "ostensibly" (outwardly appearing as such) comment that I made. There was only an assumption in as much as I can think of no other reason to get on a police radio.

And the reports also say that he got out "enraged". None of the behavior that I viewed on the video when he first gets out of the vehicle is evidence of "enraged" behavior. Hell, even after he gets hit in the face with a snowball, he still remains disengaged from the people involved. It is only after uniformed units arrive that he begins confronting the crowd. At that point he is, ostensibly, going to take enforcement action, which would be his job.

The problem is though there is a lot still to figure out here, you are certainly looking at this with a slanted view.

Not slanted, alternate. I have already stated that I don't know that my hypothesis was this detective's reasoning for his actions. But, I will not judge him until I, at the very least, get his side of the story, as you and others here have done.

Major brawls start with snowball fight a lot where you live?

I live in the Los Angeles area, so no. But what is at issue is not what you or I think might or might not happen, especially in light of the 20/20 hindsight that you are applying to your analysis of the situation. For instance, you know that this was merely a snowball fight coordinated through the use of online social networking websites. What you should be doing in analyizing in light of what the officer could reasonably know. And I don't think that a, what, 46 year old cop does a lot of twittering. But then again, I can't say that for sure.

Possibly, but no other reasons have come forward yet, and he didn't ID himself.

Really??? Then I guess all the shouts of "Pig" were merely speculation on the part of the crownd. Shouts which occurred before uniformed personnel arrived on scene.

And in light of the contraversy regarding this situation, if I was involved, I wouldn't say anything to the press either. You can easily imagine that some lawsuits are going to arise out of this, or that this man might lose his job. Is it any wonder that he might be a bit quiet?

There aren't any videos available for when his care stopped, but he definitely isn't acting calm as you claim in any of the ones available, and he doesn't engage in any appropriate actions if he stopped for law-enforcement reasons.

Oh, I would certainly agree that after other cops arrived, he was definately aggressive. But you tell me what you would define as a man's behavior who is only standing in front of his vehicle talking on a police radio while being pelted with insults and snowballs?

Getting on a police radio during what he may consider to be a fight is not an appropriate action?

Good for you, I'm glad you have respect for LEOs, so do I. But that doesn't excuse bad behavior and fortunately not having concrete evidence of his motives doesn't undermine the video. You don't have to know motive if the actions are clear.

So, just like everyone else, you chose to judge an issue before you see all of the evidence in this case, especially without hearing the officer's side of the situation. Hell, you would give a common criminal more slack then that.

Besides, your last statement goes to show you absolute ignorance of the legal aspects of police use-of-force.

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

I have to agree. Yes, a group of 200 people can get out of control. Introducing a lone gun into that situation does not seem sensible to me. He could have identified himself as an officer (since he was in street clothes and his personal vehicle), but in a crowd of 200 people chucking snowballs during a snow storm, who is going to hear it?

Then, you have other officers arriving (such as the uniform in the first video) who do not know that it is a police officer with a gun because he did not radio in that he was there and had his weapon out. If he perceived the situation to be a threat to public safety, he might have told someone.

You have no evidence to show that. What is your real world experience with the way that police dispatch / 911 center works? I can tell you that miscommunications happen in small agencies, much less one that has 4,050 officers divided between seven police districts. And that is just at the station level, not including specialized units and such with their own radio channels.

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

Someone hit the car which pissed off the bonehead who stopped and got out waving a gun. He's lucky no one else there pulled theirs and dropped him.

What is your evidence that someone hit his car with a snowball? Making up your own facts, or just repeating what a "news" article says doesn't make it true.

I thought you were more of a skeptic then that.

 

[Archangel M]

I'm thinking that some people haven't bothered to watch the video.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

What is your evidence that someone hit his car with a snowball? Making up your own facts, or just repeating what a "news" article says doesn't make it true.

I thought you were more of a skeptic then that.

The articles I've read stated that, and I quote:

People squealed as they hurled balls of snow across the largely deserted road. Then, a snowball or two slammed into a Hummer. The driver, a plainclothes detective whom D.C. police refused to identify, got out, drew his gun and exchanged angry words with revelers, according to video footage and witnesses.

Then a maroon Hummer pulled up and was hit by snowballs. A man in plainclothes got out with a gun in his left hand.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/12/20/AR2009122000881.html
Monday, December 21, 2009

Cop says on video he pulled a gun because he was hit with a snowball

An off-duty member of the Metropolitan Police Dept. was reportedly driving his personal car in the area when the car was suddenly pelted with a barrage of snowballs, according to a statement from the MPD.

http://www.nbcwashington.com/weathe...t_Over_Snowball_Fight_Waves_Gun-79729162.html
Mon, Dec 21, 2009

Police said Monday they were looking into reports that a plainclothes officer pulled a gun after he and his personal car were hit by snowballs. Police say witness accounts and videos from the scene appeared to support the claims.

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/12/21/crimesider/entry6005292.shtml
December 21, 2009

So.....?

Am I yet again citing crap sources, or should I limit myself to commenting only on what I have direct interaction with, or can someone point me to the Galifrayian Consulate so I can hitch a ride in the next TARDIS visiting DC last Saturday?

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

The articles I've read stated that, and I quote:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/12/20/AR2009122000881.html
Monday, December 21, 2009



http://www.nbcwashington.com/weathe...t_Over_Snowball_Fight_Waves_Gun-79729162.html
Mon, Dec 21, 2009


http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/12/21/crimesider/entry6005292.shtml
December 21, 2009

So.....?

Am I yet again citing crap sources, or should I limit myself to commenting only on what I have direct interaction with, or can someone point me to the Galifrayian Consulate so I can hitch a ride in the next TARDIS visiting DC last Saturday?

To me, its not a matter of quoting crap sources. What I am offering is that we have a news report of facts not in evidence. Those news organizations that you listed do not cite the source of their information, which is what amounts to evidence. Unless the writer was there, then without citing their source, it amounts to speculation.

A news article is not a source, unless it cites what the author sees. I will give it a measure of being an accurate depiction of facts if a witness is named.

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

Remember people, I am only offering a possible reason for his actions. I do not know whether my hypotesis was also his reasoning. What is irritating, however, is the prejudgement on the basis of a video.

Now, do I think he made a tactical error. Absolutely. But it is not one that warrants such vitriol by the public, though I may understand it. The public has very little, if any, understanding of what is involved in police use-of-force situations, and therefore make judgements out of ignorance.

 

[Carol]

What is your evidence that someone hit his car with a snowball? Making up your own facts, or just repeating what a "news" article says doesn't make it true.

I thought you were more of a skeptic then that.

The detective behaved more like hothead that got pissed because his pwecious wheels were hit by a snowball, rather than behaving like a mature, responsible 25 year veteran of the force.