David Peterson's new book on Wong Shun Leung

[KPM]

It sounds like what you are suggesting is that WSL's wing chun is the best and closests to Yip Man's wing chun. As such, all other YM students who do not resemble WSL's focus/theory/interpretation are wrong. Also that PB is the closest representation of WSL. Therefore anything different from him is wrong.

In other words YM = WSL = PB?

That is certainly what guy and LFJ have suggested in the past! But I can't wait to see how they dance around that point this time around!

 

[guy b.]

It sounds like what you are suggesting is that WSL's wing chun is the best and closests to Yip Man's wing chun. As such, all other YM students who do not resemble WSL's focus/theory/interpretation are wrong. Also that PB is the closest representation of WSL. Therefore anything different from him is wrong.

In other words YM = WSL = PB?

I don't think LFJ said anything like that. He was speaking in general terms.

 

[Wing Chun Auckland]

Hmmmm ..... wonder where I got that impression from then?

It sounded like he was saying that variance in WC is caused by arious deficiencies in the student and that is all. But I must have completely misunderstood him. My bad, seemed like he was being a wing chun snob there for a minute.

 

[Phobius]

Or maybe he is saying DP is the one without the errors? Or maybe both of them are doing it with errors? The only thing that is clear so far is that someone of them is deemed to do VT with errors.

This is at least what seems to be explained here in this thread.

I am fairly certain both DP and PB respect and believe each other to have the correct training and skill set.

 

[LFJ]

Hmmmm ..... wonder where I got that impression from then?

Not sure, since I already told you I wasn't talking in terms of right or wrong.

It sounded like he was saying that variance in WC is caused by arious deficiencies in the student and that is all.

I said much of not all. There are some branches in the WSL line that have modified the entire system for whatever reason but not for any apparent deficiency.

 

[LFJ]

Or maybe he is saying DP is the one without the errors? Or maybe both of them are doing it with errors? The only thing that is clear so far is that someone of them is deemed to do VT with errors.

I was never talking about errors in the system, but errors made during a fight. Whoever doesn't make errors in fighting is already perfect and doesn't need any MA training... I don't think either of them is perfect.

I am fairly certain both DP and PB respect and believe each other to have the correct training and skill set.

Have you trained or spoken with either of them?

 

[Phobius]

I was never talking about errors in the system, but errors made during a fight. Whoever doesn't make errors in fighting is already perfect and doesn't need any MA training... I don't think either of them is perfect.

Yes, this part I was not questioning you on. But you were saying that these errors then gets integrated into their system/style and it is no longer optimal. This eans that one or both of them integrate errors into their WSLVT. Keep in mind that my own opinion is that changes are not errors because it would imply there is an optimal fighting system for all. If you have ever been a head taller than all your opponents that whole thought on an optimal style that fits all goes right out the window.

I am trained in believing that we are the style, and we do what suits us best. The more we train, the better we know what suits us in a given moment. (Not talking mere techniques). This belief is also something I have felt has been verified myself. Just adding it so we are clear on why I have a different mind set and dont need to argue, but rather discuss as it is interesting as long as we stay away from "my lineage is better than yours" ********.

Have you trained or spoken with either of them?

It was a comment meant more out of respect, not saying that they are somehow spreading any ill thoughts about the other. That this discussion does not explode into something else.

Had I met PB or DP I would not be asking you these questions. And if I could, I would gladly go and meet as well as train with these guys.

 

[LFJ]

But you were saying that these errors then gets integrated into their system/style and it is no longer optimal. This eans that one or both of them integrate errors into their WSLVT.

That is not at all what I said.

An error in fighting is when something doesn't work right and possibly causes you to get hit or lose the fight. Why would anyone integrate errors into their system?

What I said is that there are two ways of dealing with these errors. Either you use the system to correct them, as it was designed to do. Or you modify the system / fighting strategy / tactics to do something else to fill the gap.

Some people will do the latter, claiming to be evolving the system based on their experience. But I would say perhaps they haven't understood the system to begin with and haven't given it a chance to do what it's supposed to do.

Unless one is already perfect, I see no need to change the system. Just train harder and keep improving upon errors you find in free fighting.

 

[KPM]

Being dedicated doesn't mean they received much direct transmission, or that they understood the big picture.



Speaking strictly about interpretations of things, only ever playing in chi-sau without much guidance and no fighting experience is going to limit one's understanding of the system.

The main goal of testing isn't to change or adapt the system to fill your gaps, but to find your errors so the system can correct them. The system is really a self-correction tool.

Without understanding that, chi-sau has no clear goal and becomes a playground where all sorts of blind theories get made up.

Fundamentally changing the system based on fighting experience would be revealing a misunderstanding of the purpose of the system. It's not a grab bag of applications that are to be swapped out.



Pretty sure I know the clip you're talking about. It's in French, right? That's MK's student and the way they do this drill is not identical to DP's branch. It may seem so from an outside perspective, but there are subtle tactical ideas missing from DP's branch.

Just reposting for the record, since some people tend to lose track of what they have actually said.

 

[LFJ]

How is that any different from what I've been saying in each post here?

 

[Phobius]

That is not at all what I said.

An error in fighting is when something doesn't work right and possibly causes you to get hit or lose the fight. Why would anyone integrate errors into their system?

What I said is that there are two ways of dealing with these errors. Either you use the system to correct them, as it was designed to do. Or you modify the system / fighting strategy / tactics to do something else to fill the gap.

Some people will do the latter, claiming to be evolving the system based on their experience. But I would say perhaps they haven't understood the system to begin with and haven't given it a chance to do what it's supposed to do.

Unless one is already perfect, I see no need to change the system. Just train harder and keep improving upon errors you find in free fighting.

I now know where my understanding of what you mean was off, you wrote:

"If instead the system is being modified to fill gaps, one's understanding is inverted. That's using errors to fix the system, rather than using the system to fix the errors."

I interpreted this as errors to fix the system meant people integrate errors into their styles in your view. You mean that errors during execution would change the style into something that is not errors but also no longer the same system. I can accept that view.

So is above text what you actually mean? Just so I know if this is where I missunderstood you.

 

[LFJ]

Let's say for example that I keep getting hit because my wu-sau is bad. It's always sleeping or I'm using bad lines.

I can use the VT system to train it in chi-sau and gwo-sau drills until I get it back up to fighting speed without it breaking down, then have a go again to see if it has improved. That's what the system is designed to do.

But if I don't understand the system as a corrective tool for free fighting, and more importantly don't know how to use it as such, I may just think the wu-sau "technique" is flawed and attempt to "evolve" it by changing something about it, replacing it with something else, or changing my fighting strategy to remedy the problem.

Do that enough and I'll end up with something that is no longer VT with no guarantee that it's an actual improvement upon VT.

But again, as I said, how many people are actually using free fighting experience like that? I think most changes to the system come from people playing around with what works and doesn't work in chi-sau.

 

[Phobius]

Let's say for example that I keep getting hit because my wu-sau is bad. It's always sleeping or I'm using bad lines.

I can use the VT system to train it in chi-sau and gwo-sau drills until I get it back up to fighting speed without it breaking down, then have a go again to see if it has improved. That's what the system is designed to do.

But if I don't understand the system as a corrective tool for free fighting, and more importantly don't know how to use it as such, I may just think the wu-sau "technique" is flawed and attempt to "evolve" it by changing something about it, replacing it with something else, or changing my fighting strategy to remedy the problem.

Do that enough and I'll end up with something that is no longer VT with no guarantee that it's an actual improvement upon VT.

But again, as I said, how many people are actually using free fighting experience like that? I think most changes to the system come from people playing around with what works and doesn't work in chi-sau.

Ignoring that last comment since it is nothing but vinegar and will only cause unnecessary fighting or bickering here.

My view is that what you are describing is the reason why lineages can never find common terms. We are concept and not technique based so if I try to convince you that one "technique" should be done in a certain way, it wont work for you unless the other movements are changed as well. They are not techniques but movements, so I cant convince you that one needs to be changed or is done differently.... because all of them has to be in that case.

Not meaning you are doing it wrong, you are doing things differently. That is why you train WSLVT or even WSLPBVT perhaps and I don't.

I believe also in evolution, not in keeping the old. Not because system is flawed but because world is changing. And also my style differs to that of others, I am taller than most. My angles are never same as others.

 

[guy b.]

What I said is that there are two ways of dealing with these errors. Either you use the system to correct them, as it was designed to do. Or you modify the system / fighting strategy / tactics to do something else to fill the gap.

Some people will do the latter, claiming to be evolving the system based on their experience. But I would say perhaps they haven't understood the system to begin with and haven't given it a chance to do what it's supposed to do.

Unless one is already perfect, I see no need to change the system. Just train harder and keep improving upon errors you find in free fighting.

Absolutely.

I would add that if you don't believe in the system, then modify away to your hearts content. Or do something else. But to gap fill by changing things when an error is discovered is a gross misunderstanding of what the system is designed to do. This is why the various drills exist and are so important in VT.

My view is that what you are describing is the reason why lineages can never find common terms. We are concept and not technique based so if I try to convince you that one "technique" should be done in a certain way, it wont work for you unless the other movements are changed as well.

That is why you train WSLVT or even WSLPBVT perhaps and I don't.

I don't agree that everything is ok when groups have radically different interpretations of the system or fighting strategy. Obviously one of those groups has gap filled, i.e. has not understood the purpose of the system.

 

[wckf92]

My view is that what you are describing is the reason why lineages can never find common terms. We are concept and not technique based so if I try to convince you that one "technique" should be done in a certain way, it wont work for you unless the other movements are changed as well. They are not techniques but movements, so I cant convince you that one needs to be changed or is done differently.... because all of them has to be in that case.

I think LFJ gave a good example with his Wu sao story.
And to your point, if the concept of Wu ("guarding" hand, or "protective" hand, whatever) for you is failing you consistently (i.e. the "concept" has gone to sleep under pressure) you can either chose to fix it or not. One would have to go back to system drills or whatever and analyze why/where/how your Wu concept became 'lazy' and fix it. (or live with the incessant fists in your teeth)

 

[Phobius]

I think LFJ gave a good example with his Wu sao story.
And to your point, if the concept of Wu ("guarding" hand, or "protective" hand, whatever) for you is failing you consistently (i.e. the "concept" has gone to sleep under pressure) you can either chose to fix it or not. One would have to go back to system drills or whatever and analyze why/where/how your Wu concept became 'lazy' and fix it. (or live with the incessant fists in your teeth)

That is my point.

I dont know why/if these things failed for you and you had to change things in your system. You see my point? I am not the one sayings things have to be wrong to be different, my belief is that things are different because people are. I have seen that if someone would copy my movements they would not follow the concepts of the system. So styles have to be different.

So if things are different because they don't work that is you that needs to answer that statement.

To emphasize and give an example, when punching people in the face most often I punch in straight or downward angle. When others punch me they often punch in an upward angle. Concepts are the same, movements are not.

 

[Phobius]

Oh and to clarify. If a movement fails then yes one needs to go back to drills to figure out why and resolve it.

We are talking about differences between lineages and even within such as between PB and DP.

Not basic training to improve.

 

[guy b.]

Oh and to clarify. If a movement fails then yes one needs to go back to drills to figure out why and resolve it.

We are talking about differences between lineages and even within such as between PB and DP.

Not basic training to improve.

Gap filling is often how such differences arise.

 

[guy b.]

That is my point.

I dont know why/if these things failed for you and you had to change things in your system. You see my point?

I don't see your point. LFJ's point is that you don't change the system if things fail- you use the system to correct your error.

 

[Phobius]

Gap filling is often how such differences arise.

Which is an OK answer. Was just misunderstanding LFJ thinking he said differences were errors introduced or introduced because of errors in their training.