I don't see your point. LFJ's point is that you don't change the system if things fail- you use the system to correct your error.
Who do you claim changed a system to correct their errors?
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I don't see your point. LFJ's point is that you don't change the system if things fail- you use the system to correct your error.
Which is an OK answer. Was just misunderstanding LFJ thinking he said differences were errors introduced or introduced because of errors in their training.
Who do you claim changed a system to correct their errors?
I believe you are not understanding LFJ's point. He is saying that VT is a self correction system. When you discover an error through sparring or fighting, VT provides a self contained error correction process allowing you to fix your error before going back to a pressure situation, where more errors will arise. In this way we get better.
If instead of looking within the system to fix your error, you instead graft something on, change something, re-invent something then you are filling the gap in your current knowledge and skill set with something not VT. This is gap filling.
Apparently most of the people who learned something from YM did this, resulting in current systemic differences
Everyone does this, it is called basic training.
That can then be argued towards you, me and all. Because WC was changed by YM.
Not everyone does this. Some people gap fill, resulting in changes to the system.
VT is what was taught by YM. Changes since that time by various people as a result of gap filling have produced the various things calling themselves VT that exist today.
WSL footwork is something that I have not seen in other wing chun lineages. I don't believe YM taught it. I think he came up with it himself and it works bloody well.
WSL footwork is something that I have not seen in other wing chun lineages. I don't believe YM taught it. I think he came up with it himself and it works bloody well.
I mean, there is even some evidence that he added the knife form a Weng Chun guy in HK. Who knows?
Hadn't heard of this before...any further info or links where one can research further? Thx.
KPM .... I stand corrected. Think I got that from Sergeo!
But the point remains the same. YM in his wisdom decided to add it in even though he wasn't taught it from his orignal teacher.
The footwork I have seen from lineage to lineage differs a lot. With WSL footwork, the hand structure is supported by the footwork. Just as a basic example, if I tan or jut a strike, the WSL approach would be to step off the line and the same leg steps back as the side that does the tan or jut. What this means is that if someone presses that arm structure, the force goes into the back leg and can be held by the stance. What I see with a lot of other lineages is the other leg being used. So if their arm structure gets pressured their stance and footing cant hold it because their is no support. Their pros and cons for both approaches ... I have since discovered. However, the WSL approach is the one that is stronger structurally.
As for the footwork example, it is difficult to picture what you are saying but "hand structure is supported by the footwork" is, I thought, common in WC.
WSL was known as an innovator. There are plenty of stories of him making adjustments and improving his system according to his focus and needs.
WSL footwork is something that I have not seen in other wing chun lineages. I don't believe YM taught it. I think he came up with it himself and it works bloody well.
I believe WSL's approach was to make Wing CHun your own and continue to evolve and refine it.
Now gap-filling is a somewhat dismissive term that implies someone didn't learn something as well as they should have. This is pure and unadulterated snobbery and a pile of steaming BS. There is infinite room for differences in expression, interpretation, focus etc. It is also quite well known that YM taught his students differently.
And the fact is guys, WSL did miss some things that you can find in other lineages. I believe this was because he was heavily focussed on application and fighting.
This is not true. WSL made changes to your system from what was taught by YM. Not saying it was bad, just different.
But again, as I said, how many people are actually using free fighting experience like that? I think most changes to the system come from people playing around with what works and doesn't work in chi-sau.
Ignoring that last comment since it is nothing but vinegar and will only cause unnecessary fighting or bickering here.
I am pretty certain WSL's wing chun looked a lot different from what YM taught. I think PB's probably looks different from WSL's.
WSL was known as an innovator. There are plenty of stories of him making adjustments and improving his system according to his focus and needs. WSL footwork is something that I have not seen in other wing chun lineages. I don't believe YM taught it. I think he came up with it himself and it works bloody well.
I believe WSL's approach was to make Wing CHun your own and continue to evolve and refine it.
But WSL wing chun is just one expression of wing chun based on a particular focus and mindset. Yes, WSL had a certain mindset and approach that was his own and to some extent has been passed down to his students.
Now gap-filling is a somewhat dismissive term that implies someone didn't learn something as well as they should have.
This is pure and unadulterated snobbery and a pile of steaming BS. There is infinite room for differences in expression, interpretation, focus etc. It is also quite well known that YM taught his students differently.
And the fact is guys, WSL did miss some things that you can find in other lineages. I believe this was because he was heavily focussed on application and fighting. I am not going to expand on this and start a lineage war because this argument is already tiresome
Every wing chun teacher under YM has a slightly different take and focus
Phaebus is right in pointing out that YM changed things himself. His wing chun looks quite different from fhe stuff that his kung fu brothers and sisters learned. Also it is different from the stuff he taught before moving to HK. I mean, there is even some evidence that he added the knife form a Weng Chun guy in HK. Who knows?
That's a bloody uninformed opinion. WSL footwork is contained in the forms, like the dummy and knives. YM obviously taught this footwork. There are videos of him on the dummy.
Most other lineages also have (kinda) this footwork in forms, but don't appear to understand the tactical ideas of it applied to free fighting.
Most other lineages also have (kinda) this footwork in forms, but don't appear to understand the tactical ideas of it applied to free fighting.
You really think YM taught dozens of radically different methods of VT?? That's highly illogical.
Your belief seems to be based on the desire for all different approaches to be justified under the "evolution" rationale.
If your position is for evolution in other lineages, then WSL didn't miss things. Other lineages invented them. But since he was more focussed on fighting, he didn't mess around with chi-sau tricks and blind theories.
Yep, and these skills were things YM could also do.You even admitted that your lineage cares less about applicability than it does playing around with structure and forces. So you shouldn't take offense to that. Just a different focus.
There's footwork in the forms (which doesn't differ too much from lineage to lineage), and then there is the footwork in application to a strike or in fighting. This is what I am referring to. I can only assume WSL made it up because I haven't seen it used in other lineages and it seems to suit the general WSL approach, mindset and focus.
If you love WSL so much, what's wrong with any notion that he developed something like the footwork. WC wasn't a gift from the heavens nor was it necessarily made by enlightened beings. It was made by people. WSL is a person. At a certain point his expertise could have reached a level where he could have made his own judgement to make improvements or adjustments wherever he saw fit ..... and rightly so.
My belief is not so much evolution based, but one of specialisation. Different students gave different levels of importance and focus to the things that YM taught them and specialised in that.
Your hero worship of WSL is so strong that you have a really limited perspective. It seems your reverence for him is so unbending, that you don't see him as anything less than a perfect representation of wing chun. There is no possibility that while he might have been great at some things, he might not have been great at others (like all of us! He is human after all).
Because I don't just make blind assumptions. WSL was directly asked if he made any changes to the system. He said the system didn't need any changes. He would be stupid to make changes if he believed that then, wouldn't he? How much clearer could that be?
As I said, there is a disconnect in some lineages that share similar footwork in forms, but don't appear to understand the tactical application of it in free fighting.
Rather than assume WSL made it up, just look at fighting experience. Those with less or no fighting experience have worse footwork.
Okay, I think that is a bad idea, because the system is meant for all parts to work as a whole. If you focus on certain things to the extent that the fighting strategy and tactics are changed, it will cause short circuits in the functioning of the system.