Dangerous habits

[Stealthy]

Oh, and Stealthy? Perhaps a little less attitude in your responces will serve you better

I do have issue with rewording the same question ten times though, it feels like baby sitting which is okay if I'm in the mood but more importantly it just feels like my chain is being jerked when intelligent people pretend they don't know what I'm talking about.

There is nothing wrong with the wording, I've even re-worded it once already because I am such a nice guy.

If someone doesn't understand the question then it is unlikely they have the intelligence to answer it anyway.

 

[Chris Parker]

I do have issue with rewording the same question ten times though, it feels like baby sitting which is okay if I'm in the mood but more importantly it just feels like my chain is being jerked when semi-intelligent people pretend they don't know what I'm talking about.

There is nothing wrong with the wording, I've even re-worded it once already because I am such a nice guy.

If someone doesn't understand the question then it is unlikely they have the intelligence to answer it anyway.

This is what I'm referring to, really. Your question may have been clear to you, but not to anyone else, and that is far from a reflection on their intelligence. It's honestly more a reflection on your clear communication abilities. You complained about the state of your reputation points at one stage, this is how you get them.

Oh, and Tez is precisely who you want to answer your questions about MMA, insulting her is really not the way to go. Not to mention the offence I may take at your comment here.

 

[Stealthy]

This is what I'm referring to, really. Your question may have been clear to you, but not to anyone else, and that is far from a reflection on their intelligence. It's honestly more a reflection on your clear communication abilities. You complained about the state of your reputation points at one stage, this is how you get them.

Oh, and Tez is precisely who you want to answer your questions about MMA, insulting her is really not the way to go. Not to mention the offence I may take at your comment here.

Tez has no interest in answering my question and you along with a bunch of other people did understand it at least enough to respond intelligently so I don't know why you would take offense to my comment but my apologies if you did.

 

[Chris Parker]

My offence is taken to the attitude you are showing a friend of mine, not to mention someone who you are specifically trying to reach, as Tez trains in MMA, and trains others, as well as ref'ing from time to time. Cool your jets, and understand that if people are seeking clarification, it doesn't mean that they are lacking in intelligence, it means that you haven't explained yourself clearly. That happens to everyone, I've clarified myself many times over the time here, all you do is come at it from another angle. Insulting people's intelligence won't get you any points or answers. Okay?

 

[Cyriacus]

Intelligent conversationalists make for interesting conversation, my friend.

We have a range of takedown defences, but understanding the way such things happen in MMA approaches, a sprawl is about the only thing that'll help you. From there you may have a chance to use a few different responces, but the ones you listed are actually fairly weak, and there are better ones to look to...

Indeed
And as ever, my Knowledge has only been expanded by Deconstructing and Skeptically Interrogating perfectly functional Techniques

Good Day to you, Sir!

My offence is taken to the attitude you are showing a friend of mine, not to mention someone who you are specifically trying to reach, as Tez trains in MMA, and trains others, as well as ref'ing from time to time. Cool your jets, and understand that if people are seeking clarification, it doesn't mean that they are lacking in intelligence, it means that you haven't explained yourself clearly. That happens to everyone, I've clarified myself many times over the time here, all you do is come at it from another angle. Insulting people's intelligence won't get you any points or answers. Okay?

Im just going to overally Support this Statement. (As in, im Supporting the Statement as a whole. Not just its use in this Thread)

People tend to hear someone Question something theyve said, and take it like some kind of Attack.
And unfortunately, Few Gentlemen can end such Squabbles before they have a chance to begin, and end up being Derailed by Negativity.
Theres a Certain Thread in the WC Section i could Drag up as an Example

 

[Stealthy]

My offence is taken to the attitude you are showing a friend of mine, not to mention someone who you are specifically trying to reach, as Tez trains in MMA, and trains others, as well as ref'ing from time to time. Cool your jets, and understand that if people are seeking clarification, it doesn't mean that they are lacking in intelligence, it means that you haven't explained yourself clearly. That happens to everyone, I've clarified myself many times over the time here, all you do is come at it from another angle. Insulting people's intelligence won't get you any points or answers. Okay?

Okay, good advice.

 

[Tez3]

Tez has no interest in answering my question and you along with a bunch of other people did understand it at least enough to respond intelligently so I don't know why you would take offense to my comment but my apologies if you did.

Well, sir, as you seem to know my mind better than I do you may be the first man to totally understand women, congratulations.

The written word isn't always as clear as we think it is when we write it, I've had my posts misunderstood or not understood at all, sometimes it's because I use English words instead of American ( the 'spanking' thread in the Study is a case in point as spanking here is a sexual activity, what you do here to children is smack them. It can make a serious subject seem odd), sometimes it's because I didn't explain properly a concept which seems fine in my head but not when written down. It's always, always better to say you don't understand and maybe look like a fool rather than answer and confirm you are. It is intelligent to say you don't understand when others appear to, we all think in different ways about things. It can be frustrating when people don't understand, I teach children TSD kata and Bunkai and often I have to rethink how I explain things but it can be done.

Thanks Chris much appreciated!

 

[Chris Parker]

And here was me thinking I was the first one to understand women completely.... er, they're the ones that wear the dresses, right? Or am I confusing them with Scotland again...

 

[Cyriacus]

And here was me thinking I was the first one to understand women completely.... er, they're the ones that wear the dresses, right? Or am I confusing them with Scotland again...

No, not at all, Sir.

Youre thinking of Kendo Practitioners!
(No Offense to any Kendo Practitioners. This is meant strictly in humor, the same way he made reference to Scots )

 

[Stealthy]

Well, sir, as you seem to know my mind better than I do you may be the first man to totally understand women, congratulations.

To be honest I assumed you never bothered to read my post when you commented on dropping the guard as a bad habit. Then you did read my post and did understand my question but still threw in a completely unrelated comment about not turning your back. I could have taken offense to receiving such basic advice but since you don't know me from a bar of soap it's okay if you think I don't know about things like dropping the guard and protecting your back.

What I really took offense to was this comment:

It seems to be yet another one on how MMA fighters can't actually fight outside their ruleset because they get into 'bad' habits for self defence

It is in the interests of clearing the air that I am pointing this out but the real reason I am posting is to a) Apologise to Mr Parker for the attitude I have shown his friend(you) and b) To apologise to you for taking offense to the above comment.

I assure you it is my intention to exploit any viable weaknesses were I to need to deal with a trained MMA fighter but it is not my intention to make some remark about how MMA fighters are no good at real fighting.

 

[Chris Parker]

No, not at all, Sir.

Youre thinking of Kendo Practitioners!
(No Offense to any Kendo Practitioners. This is meant strictly in humor, the same way he made reference to Scots )

(Ahem!) And this is where I break out pictures of myself in hakama for my Kenjutsu and Iai training, is it...?

Although, I will say that I was teaching a couple of my guys in a park a number of years ago, and I was wearing a hakama, with my hair flowing freely in the wind, and a young girl and her little brother wandered past. I heard the young lad ask her what those two guys and that girl were doing.... hmm, woulda thought the goatee at least would have been a clue!

 

[Tez3]

To be honest I assumed you never bothered to read my post when you commented on dropping the guard as a bad habit. Then you did read my post and did understand my question but still threw in a completely unrelated comment about not turning your back. I could have taken offense to receiving such basic advice but since you don't know me from a bar of soap it's okay if you think I don't know about things like dropping the guard and protecting your back.

What I really took offense to was this comment:


It is in the interests of clearing the air that I am pointing this out but the real reason I am posting is to a) Apologise to Mr Parker for the attitude I have shown his friend(you) and b) To apologise to you for taking offense to the above comment.

I assure you it is my intention to exploit any viable weaknesses were I to need to deal with a trained MMA fighter but it is not my intention to make some remark about how MMA fighters are no good at real fighting.

Er...giving up your back is common in Judo but the worst possible thing you can do in MMA and in self defence. Dropping your guard is common in amateur MMA as there are no head shots but it can lead to people not keeping their guard up not only in semi and pro rules but in the 'street'.
Are we supposed to post only things you understand? If so we aren't going to be passing on any information are we, you may know that giving your back up is 'not good' in MMA but we get Judoka coming into train with us who don't know that and follow their habit of doing just that. The same with keeping hands up, it seems a very basic thing but again to those who don't know about am rules they may not realise that fighters get into the habit of not keeping their hands up. Keeping hands up when kicking is something many martial artists don't do, one arm is dropped when kicking through, some places even teach people to do this but to many it's a very bad habit.

Chris, the Scots aren't the only ones to wear 'skirts', the Welsh have kilts as do the Irish and the Fijians soldiers walk around here on the very odd days we have when the sun is hot enough in what appears to be sarongs!

 

[Stealthy]

Are we supposed to post only things you understand? If so we aren't going to be passing on any information are we...

Definitely not but even if you were to, I am sure you have a lot to pass on. I certainly don't know everything and when it comes to MMA I know very little that's why I came here to ask the experts what they(you) think.

I imagine it is something you have thought about before since everyone likes to know their weaknesses so they can shore them up but it is a difficult question since in essence it involves thinking outside the box.

I think I gave a pretty good example about boxers getting over complacent because of the protection gloves offer, not many people would even consider this viable but there's one boxer out there that wishes he'd taken hand conditioning a little more seriously. If you are wondering why I didn't just kick him, I had to agree not to use kicks prior to the fight.

 

[Steve]

Hey... soo... the thread has drifted along, but I would like to go back to the take down/sprawl/elbow to the back of the neck thing.

Be sure you have in mind the technique executed by someone doing it correctly. For example, in wrestling, a double leg take down isn't done by bending over and charging in until you barrel through and over the other guy. That doesn't work. It's easy to read, easy to stop and because the dude is bent over at the waist charging in, it's easy (at least not impossible) to drop an elbow on the back of the neck.

A properly executed take down doesn't work like this, though. It looks like this:

Some keys that would prevent the average person from dropping an elbow or successfully sprawling. First, notice that the first thing he does is changes levels. He drops straight down so that when he shoots in, he's not bent over and he's driving straight in. Second, he doesn't shoot from Georgia. He's close enough that he penetrates with good posture all the way into the hip. Third, his head is pinned to his opponent's side and is high. You can also take the single leg and keep your head inside. Either way, you shouldn't be looking at the floor. Finally, the entire motion is smooth, powerful and executed very quickly.

In the video above, you can see how easy it is to defend against someone bending over and reaching out. This entire animation is ridiculous. Every one of the keys mentioned above are conspicuously absent. And as a result, the takedown defense looks really easy.

 

[Cyriacus]

Hey... soo... the thread has drifted along, but I would like to go back to the take down/sprawl/elbow to the back of the neck thing.

Be sure you have in mind the technique executed by someone doing it correctly. For example, in wrestling, a double leg take down isn't done by bending over and charging in until you barrel through and over the other guy. That doesn't work. It's easy to read, easy to stop and because the dude is bent over at the waist charging in, it's easy (at least not impossible) to drop an elbow on the back of the neck.

A properly executed take down doesn't work like this, though. It looks like this:

Some keys that would prevent the average person from dropping an elbow or successfully sprawling. First, notice that the first thing he does is changes levels. He drops straight down so that when he shoots in, he's not bent over and he's driving straight in. Second, he doesn't shoot from Georgia. He's close enough that he penetrates with good posture all the way into the hip. Third, his head is pinned to his opponent's side and is high. You can also take the single leg and keep your head inside. Either way, you shouldn't be looking at the floor. Finally, the entire motion is smooth, powerful and executed very quickly.

Not to worry, im Clear of mind
This has been Discussed, however. Saying that Sprawling was necessarily involved was an Error on my Part. I didnt mean to imply that as part of the Cycle.

Now;
The Main Factor is, and I plan to Test this Theory on Thursday, is that even in a Swift Takedown, there can be either a Delay during the Takedown, or once you are Taken Down. There is also the chance of Jamming the Technique, or entering a Long Stance (Forcing a MINOR Delay).
My Point is mainly that its Possible, and that most Takedowns dont particularly take the possibility of Spinal Strikes into account.
Take Chancery, for example. Or being... I dont know the MMA Term. When someone is on the bottom, and holds the Tops head with both hands; From either Position, one could deliver Short Strikes to the Neck or Spine, as their Hands are already back there.
If someone can be Delayed, even for a moment, during a Takedown, it can be enough.

Now, im not saying its Easy. Not AT ALL. Speed is the biggest factor in that. But my Main Idealogy is the Possibility.

I shall allow you to Reply before I go on - It will make for awekward conversation, otherwise.
This way, we can Directly Point/Counterpoint.

 

[jks9199]

Or, perhaps, what you're saying is not what people are receiving.

Communication is a 2-sided endeavor. If the sender and receiver aren't on the same page, it's kind of like using a radio tuned to the wrong frequency. If it's close, something gets through, but it may not be intelligible. If they're far apart... nothing gets through.

Here's an example:How hard the stretchy string yanks back is depends on how long it's stretched between the two things.

That'd make perfect sense to some of my buddies from high school; it's built on an inside joke. It might make sense to other people, if they recognize the relationship it's describing. To others? It's English words, but they don't really make much sense.

(Try it this way: The force of gravitational attachment varies inversely with the square of the distance between two masses.)

Your original post is:

Which common place techniques facilitated by the protection the Rules offer lend themselves to becoming quite deadly without the Rules for protection?

For example sitting down in front of a person and hugging his leg seems like a pretty crazy move that would more than likely result in a knee in the face or elbow to the back of the head or spine.

Taking it in the context of MMA, since that's where you posted it, it's still pretty unclear. You capitalize Rules; is there a particular reason? You seem to be asking "what techniques that work in the context of sport are dangerous in the context of a real violent encounter?" but you've said anyone answering that question is wrong. Then you describe a situation that I honestly have never seen in a MMA match.

 

[elder999]

Which common place techniques facilitated by the protection the Rules offer lend themselves to becoming quite deadly without the Rules for protection?
.

Well, "without the rules for protection" implies a few things. Truly violent encounters happen suddenly and without warning-most martial arts, including most MMA gyms, don't really train for that,and they all offer varying degrees of conditioning for it, with those like MMA and judo, where the practitioner is inured to impact by being taken down to the ground and/or struck, leading the way-their practioners are used to getting hit, so it comes as less of a shock. After the violence has been perpetrated, of course, technique doesn't matter nearly as much as will-though bing able to do something in given scenarios is better than not being trained at all, provided your technique is sound.

On the other hand, if you're talking about facing off against some stranger who's mouthed you off or something, well, who does that anyway?

I mean, in that case, the most dangerous technique is the one that you do instead of walking away.

 

[Stealthy]

You capitalize Rules; is there a particular reason? .

If you are not here to discuss the question and only interested in picking apart my use of the English language I have no interest in continuing any form of dialogue with you. If I want English lessons I'll visit a languages forum.

You seem to be asking "what techniques that work in the context of sport are dangerous in the context of a real violent encounter?"

Seem to be? I asked no such thing, exactly when did I refer to a real violent encounter? What is your fixation with violence and what does that have to do with my question. I said in the absence of the rules, if taking the rules away means getting all violent on someone to you, how about you leave me out of it.

but you've said anyone answering that question is wrong.

That is a complete lie, I said one specific thing said by one specific person was wrong. I have no time for your lies, please leave me alone.

Then you describe a situation that I honestly have never seen in a MMA match

So what, I have. How about you just leave me alone please Sir.

 

[Stealthy]

Well, "without the rules for protection" implies a few things.

I didn't specify any specific encounter or I would have specified a specific encounter. How about you assume I meant....any encounter "without the rules for protection".

To that end you've given two sample encounters the second of which includes a pretty good answer to my very open ended question, allow me to paraphrase so it actually makes sense relative to the question.

"MMA fighters are repeatedly trained to engage opponents, this is a dangerous habit because in some situations where they don't have the rules to protect them, the reflex of engaging opponents is detrimental to rapid disengagement and escape from the conflict".

 

[Tez3]

If you are not here to discuss the question and only interested in picking apart my use of the English language I have no interest in continuing any form of dialogue with you. If I want English lessons I'll visit a languages forum.




Seem to be? I asked no such thing, exactly when did I refer to a real violent encounter? What is your fixation with violence and what does that have to do with my question. I said in the absence of the rules, if taking the rules away means getting all violent on someone to you, how about you leave me out of it.


That is a complete lie, I said one specific thing said by one specific person was wrong. I have no time for your lies, please leave me alone.

So what, I have. How about you just leave me alone please Sir.

Temper, temper.

English is an odd language, the rules of grammar are there to ensure we mean what we say and not something else. Look at these examples from a website on words.
Beware of armed Arctic mammals. Murray Ball spotted the following
headline on a story in the Calgary Herald on 27 August: "Polar bear
dies after shooting at oil workers' compound."

This grisly story may remind you of an ancient horror film. Part of
a long-dead body had been found in Peckham, south London, the Daily
Mail reported on 25 August: "The hand, thought to be Mr Benit's, was
discovered by council workers at the run-down third-floor flat on
the Tustin estate and immediately alerted police."

Louis Cohen wrote, "An email announcement of the opening of the
student restaurant at the local community college culinary program
included a sample lunch menu item: Grilled Chicken Noodle Soup. When
I took classes there, they never taught us how to grill soup."

We are talking on this thread about techniques and movements, we need to say exactly what we mean or else the meaning changes and we have bears armed with rifles and dead body parts phoning the police. It's perfectly reasonable to assume you thought 'rules' had an importance that we hadn't seen.

You start a thread on a public forum you cannot then pick and chose who you will allow to answer, if you don't like the answer you can ignore it, put the poster on ignore or you can answer it politely refuting the other's argument. Being childish isn't an option that reflects well on you nor is making allegations of lying, something I've never seen from jks on here and I never will. An apology is due to him I think.