WTF Sparring: why it is the way that it is.

[Manny]

Can anybody tell me why dertractors of WTF Style of sparring compalin so much for the low GUARD! Even boxers that use up guard are hitt in the face and even got KO's, even Manny Pacquiao got KO, I think a well KO is tjhe result of good tactics. How many KO have you seen in boxing and how many KO have you been seen in WTF competition? Yes you can get caught wiht a nice kick on the head/face inside TKD, I got several of them and know I will get some as long as I keep training TKD.

If my perfect range of fighting is long range (using kicks) this is the range I will use most of the times and the low guard favors me period, but then if I need close counters contact a semi up gard is waht I use.

Manny

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Can anybody tell me why dertractors of WTF Style of sparring compalin so much for the low GUARD! Even boxers that use up guard are hitt in the face and even got KO's, even Manny Pacquiao got KO, I think a well KO is tjhe result of good tactics. How many KO have you seen in boxing and how many KO have you been seen in WTF competition? Yes you can get caught wiht a nice kick on the head/face inside TKD, I got several of them and know I will get some as long as I keep training TKD.

If my perfect range of fighting is long range (using kicks) this is the range I will use most of the times and the low guard favors me period, but then if I need close counters contact a semi up gard is waht I use.

Manny

After many go-rounds with people on this subject over the years, I have come to the conclusion that they simply will not accept any deviation from 'hands up' because it was drilled into them. There is also the mentality that the WTF low guard posture is how KKW taekwondo is taught across the board and that practitioners will always 'fight like they train.'

KKW pumsae are not practiced with a low guard, however, and not all sparring is competitive. I always was trained to maintain a guard appropriate to the scenario.

Honestly, I have seen very few constructive or accurate criticisms of WTF sparring. Some people don't like it and see it as their mission to be on the web discrediting it at every turn. There is usually a degree of organizational dislike accompanying it as well.

 

[Cyriacus]

After many go-rounds with people on this subject over the years, I have come to the conclusion that they simply will not accept any deviation from 'hands up' because it was drilled into them. There is also the mentality that the WTF low guard posture is how KKW taekwondo is taught across the board and that practitioners will always 'fight like they train.'

KKW pumsae are not practiced with a low guard, however, and not all sparring is competitive. I always was trained to maintain a guard appropriate to the scenario.

Honestly, I have seen very few constructive or accurate criticisms of WTF sparring. Some people don't like it and see it as their mission to be on the web discrediting it at every turn. There is usually a degree of organizational dislike accompanying it as well.

Im gonna quote myself from another thread:
Your system is neither the peak nor nadir of what you can do. Any system of neither the peak nor nadir of what someone else can do.

And hey - Some boxers carry a low guard. I keep a low front hand for various reasons.

 

[ETinCYQX]

As an interesting point, having just watched Coach Kim, Sae-hyuk's Guide to Kyorugi first video this lunch time - he says that he teaches all his athletes to hold their guard up not to have them down by their sides (I can post the exact timepoint and quote the English version if anyone needs it or is interested). Coach Kim is one of the most successful WTF sparring competition coaches in history.

I see the logic for having the hands by the side, and Coach Kim may have changed his opinion since that video set was produced, but it's what was said (while it's fresh in my mind).

Shin Lim, the Canadian Olympic coach, teaches a high guard too. Fists around the chin

 

[paitingman]

The low guard to me is all about priorities. Since punching to the face is not allowed hands are often not ready to punch, and not ready to defend them. The lowered arms protects the sides and lowers the center of gravity, slightly slouching the shoulders and relaxing the upper body. This increases mobility and makes kicking easier. It is easier to have the kicking-side arm extended downward while kicking than to have it held up. It is just natural. Like when walking, the arm tends to want to extend away from the direction the leg swings. This ergonomic technique increases speed/power. Muay Thai fighters often uses this same principle, though their guard returns quickly afterward.

As far as why WTF sparring is the way it is. It is as it's been stated here before. These changes were made to make it unique.

Heavy karate influence is an apparent fact. Early on certain members wanted to distinguish Taekwondo from other arts.
The old Karate/ITF style point sparring was obviously from Karate influence that emphasized forms and the ideal of a single lethal blow.
To separate from this, they employed full contact and body protectors.

Full contact changed the game forever.

It changed the timing. The point sparring style of "I attack-You block-You counter" simply didnt work well when full contact was introduced and "trembling shock" was needed to score. You simply couldn't expect to block a full force kick and then give a full force blow back afterwards. Your opponent would not be there. The classic Taekwondo style counterattack was invented to solve this problem. The blocking stage was eliminated and replaced with footwork that enabled a simultaneous "You attack-I counterattack" type exchange. From here all sorts of combos and other unique footwork were spawned. This is how/why WTF Taekwondo took kicking footwork to the level it's at.

(Kyokushin also shows the different timing compared to point sparring. Though instead of footwork, they replaced the blocking stage with toughness "I will weather your full contact blow, in order to have the distance/time to give my own")

Most differences between ITF/Karate, and WTF can be in some way traced back to unique rules introduced way back when.

 

[Cho, Yeonsoo]

To, OP (daniel) this is my first post on this forum, I'm currently a 1st Dan that (specializes?) in contact Taekwondo (also Korean) and I must say, yes! Yes! YEs! YES! finally, someone understands, everyone calls us "*******", "cowards" etc for wearing gear, however, if we were to not wear this gear, we could get very seriously injured, I know of fellow students which suffered concussions and even I have injured others through the gear, so yes, the gear is quite necessary.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Welcome to Martialtalk!

 

[Laplace_demon]

Most differences between ITF/Karate, and WTF can be in some way traced back to unique rules introduced way back when.

True. When I go diagonally with my roundhouse kicks head high, the ITF asisstant instructor (4th Dan) asserts those are "soccer kicks", not Taekwondo! He even went as far as saying their "wrong". The fact that I perform them seeminglessly and fast doesn't matter. He won't accept them as legitimate. My head instructor liked them, and their height.

Of course, any Taekwondo instructional from South korea has them, instead of his outdated "mawashi geri" styled roundhouse, which in my opinion is slow and ineffective.

 

[Dinkydoo]

Of course, any Taekwondo instructional from South korea has them, instead of his outdated "mawashi geri" styled roundhouse, which in my opinion is slow and ineffective.

I don't do TKD however I'm interested to know how the "mawashi geri" styled roundhouses go when compared with what you were doing. Having done a few differernt styles (some much more briefly than others) I've been taught a few different ways to do a roundhouse. Mostly, I prefer and persist with the Muay Thai method I was taught.

 

[Laplace_demon]

I don't do TKD however I'm interested to know how the "mawashi geri" styled roundhouses go when compared with what you were doing. Having done a few differernt styles (some much more briefly than others) I've been taught a few different ways to do a roundhouse. Mostly, I prefer and persist with the Muay Thai method I was taught.

Huh? Just google mawashi geri, and you will find out. This instructional demonstrates a modern TKD kick, which some, as I just mentioned , labelled a soccer kick, simply for not being able to open his eyes to modern advancements in the world, but instead is stuck in the 60s!

1:36 - Roundhouse kicks.

And that tape is even old!

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I'd be interested if anyone has any theories as to why Kyokushin sparring and WTF sparring have evolved so differently, even though there are a lot of similarities in the allowed techniques. Is it the scoring or something else? Could a high-level Olympic TKD competitor do well in Kyokushin competition or vice versa? (Obviously the Kyokushin competitor couldn't use leg kicks or knees in WTF competition, but I've seen Kypkushin competitors who seem to specialize in high kicks of the sort which are legal in TKD.)

 

[Dinkydoo]

Huh? Just google mawashi geri, and you will find out. This instructional demonstrates a modern TKD kick, which some, as I just mentioned , labelled a soccer kick, simply for not being able to open his eyes to modern advancements in the world, but instead is stuck in the 60s!

1:36 - Roundhouse kicks.

And that tape is even old!

Ah, didn't realise it would be that simple with mawashi geri being a well used term. I was interested to see if any of the round house varieties I'd been taught were similar - mainly because I've been wondering where the hell all these variations have came from. The answer was, not really.

 

[Laplace_demon]

I'd be interested if anyone has any theories as to why Kyokushin sparring and WTF sparring have evolved so differently, even though there are a lot of similarities in the allowed techniques. Is it the scoring or something else? Could a high-level Olympic TKD competitor do well in Kyokushin competition or vice versa? (Obviously the Kyokushin competitor couldn't use leg kicks or knees in WTF competition, but I've seen Kypkushin competitors who seem to specialize in high kicks of the sort which are legal in TKD.)

Japan did not allow tournaments involving punches to face without boxing gloves of some sort, which is part of the reason Kyokushin rules do not have it to this day.

As for WTF, Koreans pride themselves on their unique kicking proficiency and in an effort to promote this, incorporated such rules.

Unfortunately, WTF bares little resemblence to KK, but is in theory possible through removal of protectors and few other adjustements.

WTFers kick better(for several obvious reasons), and have beaten KK guys from time to time. But most TKD guys don't care for it. Anderson Silva is a 5th Dan black belt in WTF.

 

[mattktkd]

I am a currently participating athlete who fights under the WTF rules. Now I have sort of a different take on why we fight with our hands low. While it is not practical to keep them low if we need to block our head it is a lot easier to block the body. If the feet sensor pads never reach you how can they score a point? and if not enough of them reach you then no point is scored either. This being said it is more common for the better fighter to fight with the rear hand held slightly higher and the front hand to be lower -- about waist level -- and more in front of the player. The higher carried rear hand is in a position to punch from here and it is high enough where blocking head kicks is not out of the picture.

 

[Moto9000]

Also a kick to the head takes longer, giving more time to raise the guard.

 

[TheTraveleress]

The necessity of electronic equipment moved our school away from participation at the state and national levels. It makes the sport too expensive for the youth we trained to compete and there is not a lot of competition or practice for them at the olympic level without the expensive gear. In additions, the last time I judged at a state competition I was extremely disappointed in the lack of coordination, skill and control for those looking to earn points for advance levels of competition. The goal was just fancy head kicks regardless of the fact that they could not land on their feet or control their bodies. How is it a useful skill if you are on the mat all the time? How are these kids competing with black belts if they have no control? What is the point of training if all they need is some electronic gear and a jump kick?

I got yelled at and cussed out by some young coach because I did not score his teams jump kicks "properly". The competitors were being trained to jump and kick for competition points, it did not look like aiming, timing, focus points, control etc were a part of the training at all. I miss the ring, but I am just not willing to give points in the absence of clean techniques just because some little electronic light was triggered. WTF surely had bigger and better goals... I hope. In practice, it is just another thing that seems to be taking away from the art, materializing and cheapening the value. I hope this is only a problem in this part of the country (Midwest)

 

[skribs]

The necessity of electronic equipment moved our school away from participation at the state and national levels. It makes the sport too expensive for the youth we trained to compete and there is not a lot of competition or practice for them at the olympic level without the expensive gear. In additions, the last time I judged at a state competition I was extremely disappointed in the lack of coordination, skill and control for those looking to earn points for advance levels of competition. The goal was just fancy head kicks regardless of the fact that they could not land on their feet or control their bodies. How is it a useful skill if you are on the mat all the time? How are these kids competing with black belts if they have no control? What is the point of training if all they need is some electronic gear and a jump kick?

I got yelled at and cussed out by some young coach because I did not score his teams jump kicks "properly". The competitors were being trained to jump and kick for competition points, it did not look like aiming, timing, focus points, control etc were a part of the training at all. I miss the ring, but I am just not willing to give points in the absence of clean techniques just because some little electronic light was triggered. WTF surely had bigger and better goals... I hope. In practice, it is just another thing that seems to be taking away from the art, materializing and cheapening the value. I hope this is only a problem in this part of the country (Midwest)

One thing that really interests me is 20/20 armor (although it, too is expensive).

In particular, what I would like to do is get only the chestguards. That way, you can go for power shots to the body, and those power shots mean something. I would avoid the 20/20 helmets because I don't want to encourage power shots to the head in training.

 

[HighKick]

One thing that really interests me is 20/20 armor (although it, too is expensive).

In particular, what I would like to do is get only the chestguards. That way, you can go for power shots to the body, and those power shots mean something. I would avoid the 20/20 helmets because I don't want to encourage power shots to the head in training.

Well, they are $450 each, down from $650. I got to believe this is a hard price for most school owner's swallow unless they are a hardcore WT (or UBL) sparring school. I could see it as something a school eases into, maybe having one pair of small, medium, and large hogus.
Can you calibrate this gear?

 

[HighKick]

I am a currently participating athlete who fights under the WTF rules. Now I have sort of a different take on why we fight with our hands low. While it is not practical to keep them low if we need to block our head it is a lot easier to block the body. If the feet sensor pads never reach you how can they score a point? and if not enough of them reach you then no point is scored either. This being said it is more common for the better fighter to fight with the rear hand held slightly higher and the front hand to be lower -- about waist level -- and more in front of the player. The higher carried rear hand is in a position to punch from here and it is high enough where blocking head kicks is not out of the picture.

 

[HighKick]

I am a currently participating athlete who fights under the WTF rules. Now I have sort of a different take on why we fight with our hands low. While it is not practical to keep them low if we need to block our head it is a lot easier to block the body. If the feet sensor pads never reach you how can they score a point? and if not enough of them reach you then no point is scored either. This being said it is more common for the better fighter to fight with the rear hand held slightly higher and the front hand to be lower -- about waist level -- and more in front of the player. The higher carried rear hand is in a position to punch from here and it is high enough where blocking head kicks is not out of the picture.

It has changed a little, but the blocking style you describe has been around for some time. We called it a cross block or 'X' block back in the day. Front hand low, back hand higher.