Dan ranks of high level coaches and competitors

[puunui]

Everyone speaks of the gap in 6th and up Dans. I know a few that I could rely on, but I do not see the whole picture so I truly have no idea of how large or small that gap is.

The gap is huge. Try and add it up. Name all the American borns you know who have Kukkiwon 6th Dan or higher AND are promoting people using Kukkiwon certification.

What I do know, is that it is easier today to promote through KKW than it was during the mid 80's thru mid 2000s and many more american masters can do so...

Good.

 

[bluewaveschool]

Why is it that people are unwilling to promote?

 

[puunui]

Andy the problem is most sport people do not do any poomsae or one steps or any self defense, they only practice Olympic style sparring. That is why so many seperate sport/from tradition.

Different practitioners focus on different areas at different parts of their journey.

I stopped practicing poomsae for over ten years and was severely criticized for it by everyone (except my instructor, who said nothing about it, even when I told him). Then I went to the Kukkiwon Instructor Course (doing 50,000 poomsae repetitions in the process) and my critics shut up about that, and then started criticizing me for talking about the short narrow stances. Now everyone pretty much knows that short narrow stances are the Kukkiwon standard, so then they started saying I was "too strict" or "too traditional" because I try to keep Korean culture and customs within Taekwondo. For example, there is one person out there who is mad at me because I mentioned that we do not address people by their last name only, especially our seniors, because it is disrespectful, from a Korean cultural viewpoint. For example, I never address GM HWANG Kee as simply "Hwang". That guy is still angry and resentful about me saying that, ten years later.

 

[Archtkd]

\ I try to keep Korean culture and customs within Taekwondo. For example, there is one person out there who is mad at me because I mentioned that we do not address people by their last name only, especially our seniors, because it is disrespectful, from a Korean cultural viewpoint. For example, I never address GM HWANG Kee as simply "Hwang". That guy is still angry and resentful about me saying that, ten years later.

Please expound on that. If addressing a senior, would you say the full names starting with the surname or the first nae. For example, how would I address Master Tae-Hyen Park.

 

[terryl965]

puunui this is true but one must first practice all area's of TKD to insure a more unified TKD. The basic's are what a foundation is built upon, I cannot understand any instructor that would not question a student if they was not practicing poomsae for ten years. During this time was you still in TKD or did you move onto another art or something else like mountain biking? Not tryingto be dis-respectful but ten years is a long time to be doorment with poomsae's. Now there is time's before a major tournament we take off from poomsae and self defense a month or so to just concetrate on competition sparing but then we jump back into the saddle and try to fine tune them again.

 

[puunui]

Why is it that people are unwilling to promote?

I already explained that. One reason is because they don't want to create competition or potential competition. Their student may open a dojang across the street for example. Others feel that they worked really hard, kissed a lot of butt, paid a lot of money and jumped through all kinds of hoops for their Kukkiwon certification and so they are not inclined to simply give it away to their students. Others simply want to keep a certain degree of rank separation between themselves and their students.

Kukkiwon certification can be analogized to official United States currency. You go to your job and you get paid in dollars. But some people work on a plantation and the plantation owner pays them with plantation dollars instead. That's ok if you live on the plantation your whole life and buy all your goods at the plantation store, but what value is that plantation currency if you decide to leave? Everyone should be paid in dollars, just like everyone should receive Kukkiwon certification, irrespective of your values, political affiliations or whatever else people use to distinguish or separate themselves from others.

 

[Master Dan]

Andy the problem is most sport people do not do any poomsae or one steps or any self defense, they only practice Olympic style sparring. That is why so many seperate sport/from tradition.

All you need is the person name as it appears on there certificate and there actual b-day to retrieve info from the KKW site.

This was quite easy on the old site but I am having trouble on the new site as well as registration? have not tried for 2 months will try again.

 

[bluewaveschool]

I already explained that. One reason is because they don't want to create competition or potential competition. Their student may open a dojang across the street for example. Others feel that they worked really hard, kissed a lot of butt, paid a lot of money and jumped through all kinds of hoops for their Kukkiwon certification and so they are not inclined to simply give it away to their students. Others simply want to keep a certain degree of rank separation between themselves and their students.

Kukkiwon certification can be analogized to official United States currency. You go to your job and you get paid in dollars. But some people work on a plantation and the plantation owner pays them with plantation dollars instead. That's ok if you live on the plantation your whole life and buy all your goods at the plantation store, but what value is that plantation currency if you decide to leave? Everyone should be paid in dollars, just like everyone should receive Kukkiwon certification, irrespective of your values, political affiliations or whatever else people use to distinguish or separate themselves from others.

That's quite sad. I want my students to obtain the highest level that I can promote them to. When they are ready, of course.

 

[puunui]

That's quite sad. I want my students to obtain the highest level that I can promote them to. When they are ready, of course.

When you promote your students, do you give them US dollars or plantation money? If it's plantation money, then there are no limits as to what you can promote your students to.

 

[bluewaveschool]

I can not promote someone to the same rank as me, nor can I promote myself to a higher rank. Of course, if you wish to operate under the thinking that KKW is real dollars and all other TKD outside of it is fake money, then I suppose I could do whatever I wanted.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Kukkiwon certification can be analogized to official United States currency. You go to your job and you get paid in dollars. But some people work on a plantation and the plantation owner pays them with plantation dollars instead. That's ok if you live on the plantation your whole life and buy all your goods at the plantation store, but what value is that plantation currency if you decide to leave? Everyone should be paid in dollars, just like everyone should receive Kukkiwon certification, irrespective of your values, political affiliations or whatever else people use to distinguish or separate themselves from others.

This is a good analogy. But then it begs the question, what about the requirements to earn this valid certificate? If there is no standard & a way to insure the standard is met, then the certifcate, like money can become devalued, can it not?
Now I would like to have a KKW certificate, but I don't know Kukki TKD, but I am TKD just like anyone else, am I not? I could even make the arguement that I was TKD before the TaeSuDo guys were, can I not?
So how does the KKW rectify this to the satisfaction of all & what is right?

 

[puunui]

I can not promote someone to the same rank as me, nor can I promote myself to a higher rank.

Why not? Who or what is going to stop you?

I never said fake, I said plantation, in the sense that it is good while you live on the plantation and never venture outside the plantation, just like dojang dan certificates are good if the students never venture outside the dojang.

 

[puunui]

This is a good analogy. But then it begs the question, what about the requirements to earn this valid certificate? If there is no standard & a way to insure the standard is met, then the certifcate, like money can become devalued, can it not?

Value is a personal thing. What you value, I may not and vice versa.

Now I would like to have a KKW certificate, but I don't know Kukki TKD, but I am TKD just like anyone else, am I not? I could even make the arguement that I was TKD before the TaeSuDo guys were, can I not?

Why would you want a Kukkiwon certificate? And no you cannot make the argument that you were "TKD" before the "Taesoodo guys", because some of the Taesoodo guys were also using the name Taekwondo. But this is all moot if you weren't training in Taekwondo prior to 1961.

So how does the KKW rectify this to the satisfaction of all & what is right?

They do it on an individual basis.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I can not promote someone to the same rank as me, nor can I promote myself to a higher rank.

It is organizations that set the rules of who can promote to what dan. Many orgs, and if I'm not mistaken, the Kukkiwon until recently, only allow you to promote to two grades below your own (4th can promote up to second, 5th up to third, etc.). But if your school is independent, then realistically, you are your own self contained organization. If you run the school, you are not bound by organizational rules. Now, for propriety, you may choose to adhere to the promotion conventions of other organizations, but you are not bound to.

Of course, if you wish to operate under the thinking that KKW is real dollars and all other TKD outside of it is fake money, then I suppose I could do whatever I wanted.

As Puunui explained, plantation dollars, not fake dollars. Some stores used to issue store dollars, which of course, had to be spent at either that store or at a store in that chain.

Another way to describe it would be getting a 100.00 Visa gift card for your birthday. You can spend it in most places, as most retail stores take Visa. This would be your Kukkiwon certificate.

But if I receive a gift card or gift certificate from a local, independent retailer, then you would only be able to purchase items in that store. This would be an independent school's certificate.

Both cards are 'real' and both are worth a hundred bucks, but you can spend one most anywhere while you can only use the other at that specific store.

My hapkido and kumdo certificates are both essentially dojang dans. I have a TKD dojang dan and I also have a Kukkiwon dan certificate. The dojang-dans don't affect me; I teach privately and at the school where they were issued. The only certificate that would receive any recognition outside of where I train and teach is the Kukkiwon cert.

Daniel

 

[bluewaveschool]

It would be accept at other KKW schools, that is. We've accepted ATA Black Belts before, not because of their ATA cert, but on their honor as a BB. I would accept a KKW BB the same way, on their word, not on a piece of paper. Just as if I wanted to join a KKW school, I'd have a long road to advancing, and either I'd prove that I was what I claimed, or I'd wash out.

 

[puunui]

It would be accept at other KKW schools, that is. We've accepted ATA Black Belts before, not because of their ATA cert, but on their honor as a BB. I would accept a KKW BB the same way, on their word, not on a piece of paper. Just as if I wanted to join a KKW school, I'd have a long road to advancing, and either I'd prove that I was what I claimed, or I'd wash out.

Most schools I know do that, honor a person's prior rank and then attempt to get them to conform to the school curriculum. That is the dojang instructor's perspective, and this is an example of assimilating people from other organizations and schools. Nothing wrong with that, and in fact, for the sake of school harmony, it is probably better to do it that way.

The issue becomes more complicated when the head instructor of a school wants to assimilate for Kukkiwon dan purposes. They may acknowledge that they are an old dog who cannot learn new tricks, but their students are young dogs who can and for their sake, they seek out Kukkiwon certification. Students are different in perspective from their instructors, or even their fellow students, in much the same way that parents are different from their children and children are different from each other.

 

[puunui]

My hapkido and kumdo certificates are both essentially dojang dans.

I don't know about Kumdo, but to me, all Hapkido dan are dojang dans. This might not have been true when most Hapkido dojang were certified through the Korea Hapkido Association, but with the recent proliferation of Hapkido organizations in Korea, it certainly is now.