Daedo electronic hogu distorts original concept of full contact kyorugi

[Gorilla]

I will finish my though. TJ Curry is a great fighter. His game sets up very well for the New rule set and EBP.

He is a athletic head kicker who uses allot of spin kicks. I think that if he stays with it he will be very hard to beat if he avoids injury.

 

[mastercole]

Do you need sensor on a sock for the Adidas system? It sounds to me like that system adheres better to the WTF concept/rule that any part of below the ankle can score. I think you had earlier mentioned that people using the Daedoo system are having major problems scoring with back kick because the sensors are placed in part of the foot that are usually not used in back kicks.

Adidas measures air pressure so no electronic sensor is needed on the foot.

 

[mastercole]

we used the adidas hogu twice...the first time at the Dutch Open and the second time at the ATU/CTU. It definitely more of a power game. The problem is that knees score falling down scores it was disaster at the 2009 Dutch Open.

We used laJust at the US open 3 tImes in both the Sr and JR divisions.

We used the Daedo system at the Spanish Open. AAU team trials twice. The US Open. The Pan American Open.

my daughter fought World ranked fighters, national team members, u24 team members,Olympians...women ranked as high as #2 in the world. They have all adjusted their game to accommodate the EBP. Sanaa Atabrour whole game is an adaptation to the EBP. The same players remain on top but they have had to adjust their game.

All the top coaches say that they have had to adjust to the new system. In some wAys it has made it more interesting.

TJ Curry is a great fighter but the Epb game sets up quite w

>>>>>>> Again, the original post was not about if coaches and fighters could adjust.<<<<<<<<

Was knees and falling down the only problem with Adidas? I would think that falling down, and kneeing were Kyungo and referees should wave off any such point?

 

[puunui]

It could be "dead spots" in the hogu, I do not believe the hogu at the NCTA event were new.

You are on to something. We have a few sets of daedo electronic hogu system, and as you can imagine, they get used quite a lot. One school here spent considerable time figuring out how best to maximize scoring on them. But then a strange thing happened, one of the hogu began failing to register points, no matter how hard you kicked it. Finally it had to get sent back. And I understand the hogu used at NCTA nationals/team trials were not brand new and the thought now is that one of the hogus used there was malfunctioning. We are dealing with electronic and mechanical products, so this kind of thing can and will happen.

By the way, the match that you saw where one competitor was punting the other and now points went up, was one of the competitors from hawaii? Did you see a narabang (360 roundhouse) which landed squarely foot flush on the hogu at the proper angle and no point? A triple kick where all three kicks landed but no point? Was it the match that drew a large crowd? If so, that competitor won his matches at USAT national events 175-2 (or something like that) one year and his coach won USOC Coach of the Year.

 

[mastercole]

You are on to something. We have a few sets of daedo electronic hogu system, and as you can imagine, they get used quite a lot. One school here spent considerable time figuring out how best to maximize scoring on them. But then a strange thing happened, one of the hogu began failing to register points, no matter how hard you kicked it. Finally it had to get sent back. And I understand the hogu used at NCTA nationals/team trials were not brand new and the thought now is that one of the hogus used there was malfunctioning. We are dealing with electronic and mechanical products, so this kind of thing can and will happen.

By the way, the match that you saw where one competitor was punting the other and now points went up, was one of the competitors from hawaii? Did you see a narabang (360 roundhouse) which landed squarely foot flush on the hogu at the proper angle and no point? A triple kick where all three kicks landed but no point? Was it the match that drew a large crowd? If so, that competitor won his matches at USAT national events 175-2 (or something like that) one year and his coach won USOC Coach of the Year.

That is true. There will be failures in equipment, and also people. However, new equipment also failed to register extremely powerful blows. That is where I think the problem lays.

Yes, I watched that match. I think Master McCutchen (sp?) coached. Yes, the crowd, and myself were wondering why no points for excellent blows, and not only in that match, but MANY other matches as well. Could it have been worn out Daedo? Yes. Could it have been that Daedo does not scored round kicks that drive through the hogu and body? IMO, likely. But I knew that before I event got to the event. My son told me that players can not kick the Daedo with full force and score. They can kick full force to rattle the opponent, but it will likely not score, so why waste energy on doing something that will not score.

In these cases, the Daedo hogu likely determined the out come of the match.

I think they should remove electronic hogu from all WTF qualifying events, but use them at WTF Open events until years down the road, the bugs get worked out. Tell everyone, that in the future WTF will completely switch over to the electronic hogu, but until then fighters should be encouraged to go to Open's to get the experience to prepare for the future.

 

[puunui]

I think they should remove electronic hogu from all WTF qualifying events, but use them at WTF Open events until years down the road, the bugs get worked out. Tell everyone, that in the future WTF will completely switch over to the electronic hogu, but until then fighters should be encouraged to go to Open's to get the experience to prepare for the future.

Electronic scoring was seen by some at the WTF as the thing that was going to save taekwondo from getting kicked out of the olympics. They will probably be using brand new equipment at London so these types of problems hopefully can be minimized.

 

[puunui]

Yes, I watched that match. I think Master McCutchen (sp?) coached.

He's our current trailblazer in Hawaii. This weekend, he is hosting a poomsae seminar with Master Raymond Hsu on guidelines. I should be heading out there soon.

 

[puunui]

Adidas measures air pressure so no electronic sensor is needed on the foot.

the issue with that is scoring by chest bumps, knees and other unintentional contact. The way they wanted to go was to have EPB scoring replace corner judge scoring. But with adidas, you always have to be watching whether it was knee, etc.,

 

[mastercole]

Electronic scoring was seen by some at the WTF as the thing that was going to save taekwondo from getting kicked out of the olympics. They will probably be using brand new equipment at London so these types of problems hopefully can be minimized.

I am sure Daedo will put there best effort in to the Olympics. The less problems the better. My problem is not with Daedo as a company or brand. I like all of their equipment, and we use it. I am even fine with it in this current Olympics and hopefully it is consistent so the players are all on an even playing field.

Again, my issues are with what electronic hogu is doing to Kyorugi.

 

[mastercole]

He's our current trailblazer in Hawaii. This weekend, he is hosting a poomsae seminar with Master Raymond Hsu on guidelines. I should be heading out there soon.

That sounds like a good event, let us know anything interesting.

 

[puunui]

Again, my issues are with what electronic hogu is doing to Kyorugi.

I agree. I think coaches realize the limitations and drawbacks of electronic scoring, and there is a movement lobbying for the return of human corner judging. The history of the development of electronic scoring was that coaches were complaining about human error in scoring points. The response was the development of electronic scoring. Now coaches want to bring back human corners. The response to that from IRs and the WTF is that you wanted electronic scoring to take the human factor out, that is what you get. The coaches response is we wanted electronic scoring that took out bias and lead to fair matches and electronic scoring is not doing that. And that is where the debate stands at the moment.

We had our recent state championships and people noticed that there was almost no argument or grumbling about scoring this year. We used the old ringmaster with human corners to score matches.

 

[Gorilla]

Master Cole,

They waived off the points when they saw it but it happened way to much and it almost made the matches unworkable. That Dutch open probably killed addidas in Europe

 

[Bagehot]

the issue with that is scoring by chest bumps, knees and other unintentional contact. The way they wanted to go was to have EPB scoring replace corner judge scoring. But with adidas, you always have to be watching whether it was knee, etc.,

At the normal impact settings, incidental contact doesn't register. However, if someone using a knee or an elbow does register on the Adidas, it suggests that an illegal technique was used, with an effective enough force to score a point and should, in fact, be penalized by removing the point and declaring a kyung-go. This is one reason I LIKE the Adidas, that if promotes a cleaner fight; not that incidental contact is necessarily intentional, but the Adidas equipment does register improper techniques, and I do think that's a plus.

-- Bagehot

 

[Bagehot]

We had our recent state championships and people noticed that there was almost no argument or grumbling about scoring this year. We used the old ringmaster with human corners to score matches.

It is still hard to beat Ringmaster as an electronic scoring system, i.e. well-trained humans with good electronic equipment.

-- Bagehot

 

[mastercole]

At the normal impact settings, incidental contact doesn't register. However, if someone using a knee or an elbow does register on the Adidas, it suggests that an illegal technique was used, with an effective enough force to score a point and should, in fact, be penalized by removing the point and declaring a kyung-go. This is one reason I LIKE the Adidas, that if promotes a cleaner fight; not that incidental contact is necessarily intentional, but the Adidas equipment does register improper techniques, and I do think that's a plus.

-- Bagehot

My experience is that the Adidas houg has be nailed, hard to even register. I can not imagine that bumping hogus would register, unless it was set on junior fly and adults were using that setting. We have never experienced that with the set we have.

 

[Gorilla]

2009 Dutch Open Adidas was the system that was being sanctioned in Europe at the time. The settings were correct. The matches were ugly lots of incidental contact lots of points being given and some waived off. In practice it did not work well. The IR's did the best they could but the hogu did not perform. The worst that I have seen.

This is against our own self interest the adidas system is the best system for my daughters power game

 

[mastercole]

2009 Dutch Open Adidas was the system that was being sanctioned in Europe at the time. The settings were correct. The matches were ugly lots of incidental contact lots of points being given and some waived off. In practice it did not work well. The IR's did the best they could but the hogu did not perform. The worst that I have seen.

This is against our own self interest the adidas system is the best system for my daughters power game

That's to bad, I wonder if the system I have is an upgrade, or different. I'll have to look at the videos and see. I certainly understand what you are saying.

What did you think of the Dutch Open, will you go back?

 

[Gorilla]

That's to bad, I wonder if the system I have is an upgrade, or different. I'll have to look at the videos and see. I certainly understand what you are saying.

What did you think of the Dutch Open, will you go back?

best tournament I have been to...we will probably go next year

 

[mastercole]

best tournament I have been to...we will probably go next year

Did you go with a team or just on your own?

 

[Gorilla]

Did you go with a team or just on your own?

AAU National team she was on the JR Team that year. She is currently on the AAU Sr team going to Canada this year Fly div.