Daedo electronic hogu distorts original concept of full contact kyorugi

[Manny]

We own a set of Adidas electronic hogu and we think they are the best out there. Adidas reads air pressure, to it reads force, and it gives you feed back that tells you exactly what level of force you generated. Adidas hogu keeps the match like it was originally intended, score only full force, abrupt displacement blows.

Here you have my LIMITED experience with adidas (the only electronic hogus I know first hand), in one figh it socored a clash, I eman both fighters lauched kicks simultaneusly and both enden in a crash hogu to hogu I mean the hogus slamed one to other and one of them score with no a single kick, knees also score for example and in one ocacion a fighter fell over it and scored against the floor LOL!!!

But again I have no experience with teh La Just, Daedo,etc.

Manny

 

[puunui]

Here we go again! Seems I've heard these same statements just not to long ago with another hogu brand that is now gone. Hmmm.... all my past points seem to be right on the mark. Maybe I need to bring up some old posts. I am doubled over with laughter at this time. I remember when Deado was the next best thing when the other brand was being used. I said it then and I will say it now. The same fighters are still on top. So what are they doing that others can't? Hhhmmmmm....indeed.

Actually this is not the same as the last time. Last time you were defending lajust, at a point where it was obvious to everyone that lajust was not the answer and the word was that it was on its way out, to the point where, contrary to what you wrote, the same fighters are not on top. That is why the WTF got rid of lajust. This time there is one point on the line at a single tournament. Not the same thing.

 

[ATC]

Actually this is not the same as the last time. Last time you were defending lajust, at a point where it was obvious to everyone that lajust was not the answer and the word was that it was on its way out, to the point where, contrary to what you wrote, the same fighters are not on top. That is why the WTF got rid of lajust. This time there is one point on the line at a single tournament. Not the same thing.

Exactly the same and all the points or so called defense of LaJust I will simply just replace the LaJust with Daedo. The hogu does not matter, only the fighter matters. We have fought with LaJust, Daedo, and just the plain old standard hogu and we have had no issue with either. Our game has not changed and we are still winning. Most of the top competitors have not changed their game and they to are still winning. If your skills are solid then the hogu won't matter. My son and others on his team have racked up 20 or more points with or without E-hogus. If the body is open the we hit the body, if the head is open then we hit the head. You will always have those that don't like what is being used, those that do, and those that don't care. I just happen to be in the don't care bucket. I never defended anything. I guess if you don't care then it may look like defending to others.

 

[puunui]

Exactly the same and all the points or so called defense of LaJust I will simply just replace the LaJust with Daedo. The hogu does not matter, only the fighter matters. We have fought with LaJust, Daedo, and just the plain old standard hogu and we have had no issue with either. Our game has not changed and we are still winning. Most of the top competitors have not changed their game and they to are still winning. If your skills are solid then the hogu won't matter. My son and others on his team have racked up 20 or more points with or without E-hogus. If the body is open the we hit the body, if the head is open then we hit the head. You will always have those that don't like what is being used, those that do, and those that don't care. I just happen to be in the don't care bucket. I never defended anything. I guess if you don't care then it may look like defending to others.

Again, move to the senior division. Huge difference between that and the junior divisions.

 

[mastercole]

Exactly the same and all the points or so called defense of LaJust I will simply just replace the LaJust with Daedo. The hogu does not matter, only the fighter matters. We have fought with LaJust, Daedo, and just the plain old standard hogu and we have had no issue with either. Our game has not changed and we are still winning. Most of the top competitors have not changed their game and they to are still winning. If your skills are solid then the hogu won't matter. My son and others on his team have racked up 20 or more points with or without E-hogus. If the body is open the we hit the body, if the head is open then we hit the head. You will always have those that don't like what is being used, those that do, and those that don't care. I just happen to be in the don't care bucket. I never defended anything. I guess if you don't care then it may look like defending to others.

It's not that simple, it's not about me or any of my players. If my players lose, they need to improve, that is my answer to them, I would never say it was a referee, a rule, equipment or anything, other than them.

I watched fighters with excellent skills, fail to score many fast, explosive, rolled over round kicks. I saw the same fighters, and others score with lower power, slapping round kicks.

Elite fighters, which the USA has few of, will always adapt. That is not my issue. My issue is that the Daedo electronic hogu takes away from the full contact concept, for everyone involved, not just the elite.

Kyorugi is not just about winning a medal. Kyorugi is about everything in Taekwondo, and the Daebo electronic hogu degrades that.

 

[terryl965]

Well first of Dardo is also measure by power, all the hogus can be adjusted to weight and power levels. Also Daedo is about ten times better than LaJust but none of them are perfect. Going back to humans being refs. will still have kicks not scored. I still believe the best fighter that day will win nomatter what is being use. Last thing about didas is they also will score if the shin hits the hogu because it is simply about power. In TKD sport it is like footbal,basketball or baseball, bad calls are going to happen,equipment malfuction is going to happen it is what it is. Learn to play the game with or without EBPs. We have done well with Daedo but we could not do well with Lajust. Remember it is a game and games will never ever be fair to all.

 

[ATC]

It's not that simple, it's not about me or any of my players. If my players lose, they need to improve, that is my answer to them, I would never say it was a referee, a rule, equipment or anything, other than them.

I watched fighters with excellent skills, fail to score many fast, explosive, rolled over round kicks. I saw the same fighters, and others score with lower power, slapping round kicks.

Elite fighters, which the USA has few of, will always adapt. That is not my issue. My issue is that the Daedo electronic hogu takes away from the full contact concept, for everyone involved, not just the elite.

Kyorugi is not just about winning a medal. Kyorugi is about everything in Taekwondo, and the Daebo electronic hogu degrades that.

I don't believe that to be the case. Yes you may have to slightly change some but not much. We have a Daedo system in house and when we practice on it we set the levels pretty high. Snap kicking won't work with how high we set the levels but power kick do. We have found that you mush turn the foot over and drive into the hogu the way a kick is meant to be. Very hard to score with 45 degree kicks and side of foot type kick. The type that are use when kicking short. Short kick now need the knee to bend so as the top fo the foot (full instep) makes contact. That is about it. So full support leg pivot is needed now to turn the hips over. If your kicks are technically correct then you will score. To me it is that simple.

 

[ATC]

Again, move to the senior division. Huge difference between that and the junior divisions.

We have seniors also. The same people that have always been on top are still on top. Not many names have changed.

 

[Manny]

I have never used an electronic hogu and never will I think, I am not a competition fan very simple, but if I were a competitor who used full power kicks I will feel terrible if the other guy using only snap kicks with no power will win over me, because I think TKD is a Martial Art and not a tag game.

When I do kyorugi I use for safety sake the normal hogu and I fight not for points, I eman I am not counting the points I have scored or the points the other guy is doing to me, the only thing I am care of is my head/face and offcourse to not get a full powerfull kick to my torso. Wining or losing is not my game my game is to try to control my oponent and to be better than him and overcome him.

Here in my town the average dojnag still uses the normal hogus with sucess, in local and even statal competitions not every division uses the electronic hogus, we still use the silly button box to score.

Maybe because I am not inside the competition circuits I can write the way I do about the electronic devices to measure the power and to get points.

I think when e-hogu and e-helmet will be set in aprpopiate maner the only thing a ring or combat area will have is the central referee to moderate the fight, the couches and the PC and maybe a paramedic just in case and that's all, the silly blue and red cards will be gone and the machine will declare a winner of a the GAME.

Manny

 

[puunui]

We have seniors also. The same people that have always been on top are still on top. Not many names have changed.

How many of your seniors medalled in the black belt divisions at nationals? Are you planning on taking a team to the upcoming team trials the last week of April?

 

[ATC]

How many of your seniors medalled in the black belt divisions at nationals? Are you planning on taking a team to the upcoming team trials the last week of April?

We don't have any top Sr's. I stated the the same top Sr. fighters are still on the top. If you look at the names of competitors that make it to team trials they are still the same people that were there when it was LaJust, or even regular hogus. I don't see them complaining. I know TJ Curry personnaly, and he never once complained about LaJust or Daedo. Nor did his Master (Master Singer). Steven Lopez is still on the top after all the rules changes, hogu changes, ring size changes, and so on, is still on top. In GB (Great Britan) They still have the same top people that they had the last 4 years ago back at this Olympics and I don't recall a single article or interview where they complained about any hogu changes making difficult for them to return. Even Mark Lopez did not make it he is still on top and simply got beat by another that has alway be right there. The same players at the top are still there after any and all changes that have been made, hogu, or other wise. Only age will bring these players down off the mountain. Only the ones that can't get to the top complain about things. The hogu makes no difference, only the person in it does.

 

[mastercole]

We don't have any top Sr's. I stated the the same top Sr. fighters are still on the top. If you look at the names of competitors that make it to team trials they are still the same people that were there when it was LaJust, or even regular hogus. I don't see them complaining. I know TJ Curry personnaly, and he never once complained about LaJust or Daedo. Nor did his Master (Master Singer). Steven Lopez is still on the top after all the rules changes, hogu changes, ring size changes, and so on, is still on top. In GB (Great Britan) They still have the same top people that they had the last 4 years ago back at this Olympics and I don't recall a single article or interview where they complained about any hogu changes making difficult for them to return. Even Mark Lopez did not make it he is still on top and simply got beat by another that has alway be right there. The same players at the top are still there after any and all changes that have been made, hogu, or other wise. Only age will bring these players down off the mountain. Only the ones that can't get to the top complain about things. The hogu makes no difference, only the person in it does.

You really are missing my point.

I never have and never will complain about who wins or looses, even if it is my own players. Who cares who wins, I certainly don't and would never get into such a childish discussion.

My OP had nothing to do with who is still on top and who can adapt. I know all those same people you named, and they will adapt to whatever is thrown at them, I think we all know that.

Also, my OP had nothing to do with 45 degree round kicks, or poor technique.

To clarify my point better, having to adapt to skills that move away from full contact, in any measure, distorts the original intent of full contact Kyorugi.

 

[puunui]

We don't have any top Sr's.

I didn't think so.

 

[ATC]

I didn't think so.

Your point? Never said we did. One day though. We have some really good up and coming Jr. Just hope that they stick with it. Most times as they get older they fade out for some reason. School maybe, but life mostly. Also the finances are a big issue as well. Even me and my kids, I know that finacially it is difficult. To sustain without help is hard. Unless you are rich.

 

[ATC]

You really are missing my point.

I never have and never will complain about who wins or looses, even if it is my own players. Who cares who wins, I certainly don't and would never get into such a childish discussion.

My OP had nothing to do with who is still on top and who can adapt. I know all those same people you named, and they will adapt to whatever is thrown at them, I think we all know that.

Also, my OP had nothing to do with 45 degree round kicks, or poor technique.

To clarify my point better, having to adapt to skills that move away from full contact, in any measure, distorts the original intent of full contact Kyorugi.

I understand. But I don't think the hogu has anything to do with that. Like some have stated, maybe you got to wittness a bad hogu or two. I don't see that being the case with any of the equipment we have in the dojang or at any matches we have been to or in. I know you know your stuff Sir and know good technique when you see it so I take you at your word when you say you saw good solid kicks not score. But there are many that will make your same claim only to find out later that the techniques were not as clean as you or I would say. For instance there is a kid that has been on the team that kick really hard and fast but the kick is with an almost straight leg (no knee been) and he hits with side of his foot not the top. Now this use to score all the time with LaJust and by judges, but not with Daedo. He still won at the Northern CA state Championships this past March, but he had a hard time because of his kicking angle. He actully should have lost in the finals but got the benifit of a non head kick on him and won in OT. The point is he really has bad technique and use to win easy but now it took more from him. I bet he feels the same as you do. Now the difference is that he has bad technique but does not know it. Or maybe he does know it and he will change.

 

[puunui]

I understand. But I don't think the hogu has anything to do with that. Like some have stated, maybe you got to wittness a bad hogu or two. I don't see that being the case with any of the equipment we have in the dojang or at any matches we have been to or in.

So, again, this situation is different from lajust, which everyone saw as having problems, so much so that the WTF pulled it. In this case, it was one tournament, NCTA Nationals.

 

[puunui]

Your point?

See above.

 

[ATC]

So, again, this situation is different from lajust, which everyone saw as having problems, so much so that the WTF pulled it. In this case, it was one tournament, NCTA Nationals.

Not to me. I had no problems with LaJust either.

 

[mastercole]

I understand. But I don't think the hogu has anything to do with that. Like some have stated, maybe you got to wittness a bad hogu or two. I don't see that being the case with any of the equipment we have in the dojang or at any matches we have been to or in. I know you know your stuff Sir and know good technique when you see it so I take you at your word when you say you saw good solid kicks not score. But there are many that will make your same claim only to find out later that the techniques were not as clean as you or I would say. For instance there is a kid that has been on the team that kick really hard and fast but the kick is with an almost straight leg (no knee been) and he hits with side of his foot not the top. Now this use to score all the time with LaJust and by judges, but not with Daedo. He still won at the Northern CA state Championships this past March, but he had a hard time because of his kicking angle. He actully should have lost in the finals but got the benifit of a non head kick on him and won in OT. The point is he really has bad technique and use to win easy but now it took more from him. I bet he feels the same as you do. Now the difference is that he has bad technique but does not know it. Or maybe he does know it and he will change.

It may seem like I think I am, but no, I'm not yet an expert on correct round kick, but thanks for the confidence.

It could be "dead spots" in the hogu, I do not believe the hogu at the NCTA event were new.

I combine what I saw at the NCTA event with information and training my son received from Chris Martinez last month. Chris demonstrated to my son that the angle of attack, how the foot sensor contacts the hogu was more important than the impact. The sensor on the foot had to contact the hogu just right, at what I take is a 90 degree angle, which is good and correct if that is the case, and maybe you can expand on that since you have the Daedo system. What was not good in my opinion, was that Chris and my son could snap the kick, at the correct angle, but at light to medium contact and score every time, yet kicks at the same angle, full force did not score. This was on multiple brand new hogu, with new foot sensors.

If this is the case with this hogu, and maybe that is debatable. I feel that having to retract on the power, even considering the angle must be correct to score, takes away the corner stone of full contact Kyorugi.

 

[Gorilla]

we used the adidas hogu twice...the first time at the Dutch Open and the second time at the ATU/CTU. It definitely more of a power game. The problem is that knees score falling down scores it was disaster at the 2009 Dutch Open.

We used laJust at the US open 3 tImes in both the Sr and JR divisions.

We used the Daedo system at the Spanish Open. AAU team trials twice. The US Open. The Pan American Open.

my daughter fought World ranked fighters, national team members, u24 team members,Olympians...women ranked as high as #2 in the world. They have all adjusted their game to accommodate the EBP. Sanaa Atabrour whole game is an adaptation to the EBP. The same players remain on top but they have had to adjust their game.

All the top coaches say that they have had to adjust to the new system. In some wAys it has made it more interesting.

TJ Curry is a great fighter but the Epb game sets up quite w