curious

[Twin Fist]

This is way too narrow. It ignores Shotokan's roots.

yes Earl, but you have to start SOMEWHERE

 

[dancingalone]

In reference to similar forms, all I've seen are comparisons between Won-Hyo and Pinan-Shodan. Can you find any JMA forms that are the same as Toi-Gye? Hwa-Rang? Gae-Baek? What about the the Taeguks and Palgwe's? Please, I'd like to see them.

Most of the Chang Hon hyung taught to colored belts ARE very obvious reshuffles of the Pinan & Kusanku karate kata. I don't know that I would give literal equivalents such this hyung = this kata, but the linkage with individual techniques are clear enough. Look at Do-San for example - it has elements from Pinan Shodan (the Okinawan numbering system, not Japanese - I mean the form usually taught second after Pinan Nidan is learned) and Pinan Yondan within it.

Chon-Ji serves the same purpose as the Taikyoku forms...Really, it's not hard to see the Pinan link with Dan-Gun or Won-Hyo or Yuk-Guk either.

Toi-Gye was likely inspired by Pinan Godan and Jitte.

Hwa-Rang is perhaps where it gets less obvious to see where General Choi was influenced by karate. This stays true through the dan patterns IMO, except for Po-Eun where the comparisons to the 3 Naihanchi forms are inevitable.

As for the proposition that early TKD was the same creature as Shotokan karate... Well, I think that is a true enough statement for the TKD men who came from Chung Do Kwan or Oh Do Kwan backgrounds. I understand the CDK was the largest kwan in number so they probably had a corresponding level of physical representation in what TKD was back then. But as Dr. Rush as noted, there WERE exceptions, notably with the practitioners who had Shudokan karate or chuan fa in their backgrounds. Of course, the question of what extent these other roots played in the development of taekwondo is a fair one to ask. Looking around, I see little of CMA within TKD/TSD today even though a few small groups still practice the karate forms or the Chinese forms.

 

[Twin Fist]

Yes it was, from the beginning. GM LEE Won Kuk said that his students were all more interested in kicking, especially flying, jumping kicks. GM UHM Woon Kyu for example, was known for his side kick, including jumping side kick, which he used to beat everyone during sparring in the 1940s. Kicks have always been a large part of Taekwondo, from day one, due to Korea's cultural affinity for kicking.

so IF this is true, where did these kicks come from? if they didnt exist in the source arts (which they ust not have IF they were a korean invention) , what is the origin of those techniques?

were they just basic japanese kicks done higher?

did the koreans invent them?

or were they "borrowed" from yet another art?

 

[RobinTKD]

All modern martial arts are 'stolen' from more traditional arts. Judo is just Jiu-Jiutsu without the striking, but even that was there at the beginning, the same can be said of Aikido. It's also been stated in this thread that Shotokan itself had 'stolen' things from other traditional Okinawan arts, Funakoshi basically admits as much in his auto-biography. Evidence has also been supplied that Gen. Choi DID credit Shotokan in his original Instruction booklet as well as other martial arts. You could argue that all the original Okinawan arts were stolen from Chinese Wushu. Nothing is original, and no one claimed it to be. No one claims that 'Taekwondo' is 2000 years old, what they claim is that it's ROOTS can stretch back that far. What do you think the Koreans used to fight with before? Of course they have their own traditional martial arts, Hwa-Rang Do for example, Taekkyon.

Also, there is stating a truth (or making a statement), and then there is trying to provoke a reaction with stand offish comments. The latter IS trolling.

 

[RobinTKD]

Most of the Chang Hon hyung taught to colored belts ARE very obvious reshuffles of the Pinan & Kusanku karate kata. I don't know that I would give literal equivalents such this hyung = this kata, but the linkage with individual techniques are clear enough. Look at Do-San for example - it has elements from Pinan Shodan (the Okinawan numbering system, not Japanese - I mean the form usually taught second after Pinan Nidan is learned) and Pinan Yondan within it.

Chon-Ji serves the same purpose as the Taikyoku forms...Really, it's not hard to see the Pinan link with Dan-Gun or Won-Hyo or Yuk-Guk either.

Toi-Gye was likely inspired by Pinan Godan and Jitte.

Hwa-Rang is perhaps where it gets less obvious to see where General Choi was influenced by karate. This stays true through the dan patterns IMO, except for Po-Eun where the comparisons to the 3 Naihanchi forms are inevitable.

Thank you Alex, I respect your knowledge, I'll certainly now go and find the similarities myself.

 

[Twin Fist]

and the thing is, there is NO SHAME is admitting the root of the art

telling the truth about tkd hurts only ONE thing

ego

without ego, those discussion wouldnt be needed

 

[Twin Fist]

so, when someone else says the same thing i said, thats ok but when i say it is trolling?

oh BTW if you think Hwa Rhang Do is really an ancient art, you need to learn some accurate history.

 

[Twin Fist]

let me give you a hint Robin, there are NO styles or schools in korea that go back prior than WW2

NONE

do the research, you will learn

 

[RobinTKD]

and the thing is, there is NO SHAME is admitting the root of the art

I agree.

telling the truth about tkd hurts only ONE thing

ego

The truth of TKD is the same truth for all martial arts. The difference is that Taekwondo can be considered a 'Modern' martial art in comparison to others, it's only 'officially' been around since 1955 (depending on what you believe). As a result we can use modern forms of evidence to show how new it is, and either give it flack for it, or embrace it. I still believe that what little I'll admit I've seen of what was practised in the 50's IS different to Shotokan. I also see differences in the original Kwans, Chung-Do Kwan and Moo Duk Kwan etc between them and not just Shotokan, but almost all JMA's. The kicking mechanics are completely different.

without ego, those discussion wouldnt be needed

Without ego, martial arts wouldn't be needed.

 

[puunui]

so IF this is true, where did these kicks come from? if they didnt exist in the source arts (which they ust not have IF they were a korean invention) , what is the origin of those techniques?

were they just basic japanese kicks done higher?

did the koreans invent them?

or were they "borrowed" from yet another art?

I already explained it in a prior post in this topic. And it is not so much the kicks themselves so much as it is the focus and emphasis of kicks over hand strikes, which is NOT a shotokan trademark. Even the name karate ignores kicks completely, unlike the name taekwondo.

 

[Twin Fist]

so it follows that you believe the change in emphasis from hands to feet is enough of a change to justify changing the name and calling it new?

or do i misunderstand you?

 

[puunui]

so it follows that you believe the change in emphasis from hands to feet is enough of a change to justify changing the name and calling it new?

or do i misunderstand you?

The emphasis from hands to feet is enough of a change to justify me stating that taekwondo, even "original" taekwondo is not merely or just shotokan. As for the name, who cares about that? I know Funakoshi Sensei wouldn't care. He said so in his autobiography and he also stated that he fully expected the names to change again in the future. So if he wouldn't care, why should you?

 

[Twin Fist]

fair enough.

i dont know if i agree or not.

but

thats a fair reason for thinking the way you do.

as for the name? like i said, in some things, names count.

 

[elder999]

Again, ), there were joint locks, throws, etc.. . Many things that, to my knowledge, weren't exactly mainstay for Shotokan.

All those things have always existed in the Pinan/Heian kata-it's part of the reason I gave up tae kwon do: my kyokushin teachers knew this, and my tae kwon do teachers did not:

Funakoshi, from his book Ryuku Kenpo Toudi, circa 1922:

View attachment $5.gifView attachment $1.gifView attachment $2.gifView attachment $3.gif

All from Pinan/Heian shodan.

 

[Buka]

Back in the day of the dinosaur -

Triceratops - "You have to uppercut and headbutt, that's the key."
Stegasaurus - "No, no, no, typical armor plated stylist, always leading with his head. Armbars, that's the way to go."
Utahraptor - "You can't armbar a T-Rex, their arms are too short. You armbar Velocoraptors."
Allosaurus - "Well, ya, but only if you've trained against multiples."
Brontosaurus - "I'm telling you, stay in the water and smash them with a tail whip."
Gigantosaurus - (whispering) "Don't listen to him, I hear he lives in a McSwamp."


This conversation is overheard by two Pterodactyls flying overhead.
The First -" What's that smell? "
The Second. "I think it's the smell of the approaching dawn of man."
The First. - "****, there goes the neighborhood."

 

[Cyriacus]

Back in the day of the dinosaur -

Triceratops - "You have to uppercut and headbutt, that's the key."
Stegasaurus - "No, no, no, typical armor plated stylist, always leading with his head. Armbars, that's the way to go."
Utahraptor - "You can't armbar a T-Rex, their arms are too short. You armbar Velocoraptors."
Allosaurus - "Well, ya, but only if you've trained against multiples."
Brontosaurus - "I'm telling you, stay in the water and smash them with a tail whip."
Gigantosaurus - (whispering) "Don't listen to him, I hear he lives in a McSwamp."


This conversation is overheard by two Pterodactyls flying overhead.
The First -" What's that smell? "
The Second. "I think it's the smell of the approaching dawn of man."
The First. - "****, there goes the neighborhood."

I only half followed some of that, but it was amusing nevertheless

 

[mastercole]

I'd like to note that I have also found this to be a very interesting discussion. Furthermore, since I have no lineage through the ITF or the KKW, I don't really have a dog in this fight, so to speak. In case any of my comments lead anyone to believe that I have been stricken with a hemorrhoid over the thread, I would just like to set the record straight that I have not

I enjoy discussing KMA/TSD/TKD history, although I am no historian. I do make an honest attempt to understand what my history is, and where it comes from. As stated previously, I acknowledge my art's Shotokan roots, but I also recognize that there are other roots outside of Shotokan as well.

Why would you not have roots through the Kukkiwon? I thought GM Kang was you teacher?

 

[mastercole]

All those things have always existed in the Pinan/Heian kata-it's part of the reason I gave up tae kwon do: my kyokushin teachers knew this, and my tae kwon do teachers did not:

Funakoshi, from his book Ryuku Kenpo Toudi, circa 1922:

View attachment 15987View attachment 15988View attachment 15989View attachment 15990

All from Pinan/Heian shodan.

We must have trained with very different Taekwondo teachers. My Taekwondo teachers taught that you could make up any thing you like in regard to what Poomsae, Hyung, Kata, etc, because that is what the masters of Karate did, they made it up.

 

[elder999]

We must have trained with very different Taekwondo teachers. My Taekwondo teachers taught that you could make up any thing you like in regard to what Poomsae, Hyung, Kata, etc, because that is what the masters of Karate did, they made it up.

:lfao:

No.....:lfao:....that's Korean.....:lfao:....for......:lfao:....."I have no idea." :lfao:

 

[Earl Weiss]

so it follows that you believe the change in emphasis from hands to feet is enough of a change to justify changing the name and calling it new?

or do i misunderstand you?

It is a matter of degree as to when something is new or just a slight modification. Perhaps some critiqued Funakoshi as being re hashed Okinawan systems. Aside from the greater variety and emphasis on kicking I see a noted difference in the "Deeply Rooted" to the earth idea of Shotokan to generate power and the TKD ideas which embrace power generation even while airborn.