curious

[SPX]

twinfist chip

I literally LOLd.

 

[MAist25]

How can you call what Koreans did "theft" when Japan was the whole reason why Koreans learned Japanese martial arts in the first place? Maybe if Japan didnt go on a rampage, invade Korea, outlaw the practice of native Korean arts, destroy Korean culture, and impose their own culture upon them they would never have had a reason to "steal" said martial arts. Even so, Koreans did not take the martial arts and say it was their style. They took what they learned and modified it, added some things, and took some things out. They put their own Korean flavor to the martial arts they learned, based on their own cultural martial traditions. The roots of Taekwondo are very old, even though the style itself may not be.

 

[msmitht]

Wow. I always find the history of korean ma interesting. It varies depending on who you hear it from. My late gm, baek moon ku, was a direct student of hwang kee and, at the first military compound to teach tkd, choi hong hi. He said that early tkd and tsd were basically shotokan with more kicks and more power. Later the wtf changed tkd by impilmenting sport rules and safety gear to allow for full contact. tkd changed in korea and then the rest of the world. Current kukkiwon/wtf tkd is completely different than shotokan karate, which is a fine art, with the exception of certain poomsae elements.
Did someone falsify the true history of tkd? Yes. What was brought here in the 60's and 70's was mostly old school tkd/shotokan/tsd based. It does not represent what is being taught at reputable wtf/kukkiwon tkd schools all over the globe.

 

[elder999]

which is exactly my pointthats a LIEand we are LIARS if we repete it

A funny story, actually: I trained in Duk Sung Son's Chung Do Kwan and kyokushin karate at the same time.I stared in Duk Sung Son's "Korean Karate" when I was 11. When I was 13 I went to boarding school, where no form of tae kwon do was availabl, but there was kyokushin instruction. When I started that, I found, much to my surprise, that the Pyung Ahns of Tae Kwon Do and the Pinans of kyokushin (which were from Oyama Sosai's study of Shotokan directly under Funakoshi) were almost identical. I'd go home for vacations and practice with my tae kwon do class, and go back to school and practice kyokushin-with both of my teachers being completely aware of it. Eventually I wound up choosing one art, but-at the time-neither teacher could definitively say why they had such similar kata. Of course, later it became clear that it was what you've obviously overstated here, and MAist25 has added historical perspective to .For me, the Kyokushin instruction was better quality, and had bunkai that made more sense of the kata-though both of them had diverged a bit from the original Shotokan kata(for best results, start the lower, Korean version first, then immediately start the Japanese version):

How can you call what Koreans did "theft" when Japan was the whole reason why Koreans learned Japanese martial arts in the first place? Maybe if Japan didnt go on a rampage, invade Korea, outlaw the practice of native Korean arts, destroy Korean culture, and impose their own culture upon them they would never have had a reason to "steal" said martial arts. Even so, Koreans did not take the martial arts and say it was their style. They took what they learned and modified it, added some things, and took some things out. They put their own Korean flavor to the martial arts they learned, based on their own cultural martial traditions. The roots of Taekwondo are very old, even though the style itself may not be.

 

[Cyriacus]

One thing though - Isnt Karate 'stolen' from the Chinese?
(Dont take Me too literally now. Im adding to the debate, not trying to argue a point.)

 

[Earl Weiss]

well, i just wanted to make sure that I had my definitions correct.

Since, I have said, and I truly believe that TKD's "official" origin is a matter of theft and lies.


but it is an accurate statement, IMO

Well, I for one do not find your statements inaccurate, in so far as they refer to General Choi.

First and foremost he explicitly states that it is similar to dscovering fire or inventing the wheel. No single person or country can take credit for it. Secondly, he expressly references Shorin and Shorei systems and even refers to them as TKD, and thirdly, his 1965 book even contains the earlier patterns.

If you consider this theft and lies, then why wouldn't Shotokan Fall into the Same category? Why wouldn't Judo? Certainly the Shorin System would as well, would it not? How about Aikido?

 

[Earl Weiss]

It's 20 centuries old.... says so here.
http://www.tagb.biz/TKDHistory.html

or it has it's roots in Korean martial arts over 2000 years
http://www.britishtaekwondo.org.uk/what-is-taekwondo.html


.

Well, yes & No. The first kline of the first article says that but goes on to elaborate saying it was a "pre cursor."
The second refers to the roots.

I think a bigger issue is the age of the Korean roots. I think most were lost before TKD was formed. Maybe not, but the links seem tenuous.

 

[miguksaram]

If a few white people claim that the Holocaust never happened and printed it up on their website and put it down in their books and their flyers, had other white people as well as other racists claiming the same thing then it should be OK for me to say when it comes to exploitation and extermination of other cultures, white people are liars. After all we have the proof of those sites existing.

Based on your logic TF, that is OK since you felt it was OK to call all Koreans liars when it comes to martial arts.

 

[Earl Weiss]

The extent of My Taught Knowledge of TKD History: This System was founded in 1965.

QUOTE]

I think you should get your n\money back from whoever taught you this. The first english edition was published in 1965 and there was a Korean edition before this. The system was founded before the books were published.

 

[Earl Weiss]

but i guess some people here know more than jhoon rhee........../roll

Well, based upon your OP I would put you in this category or at least think that when it comes to some of what he said would at the very least disagree with him or maybe even call him a lyer or thief.

Chung - Gun and Toi-Gye of Tae Kwon Do Hyung - Jhoon Rhee
1971


Page 10

"TKD is a Korean Martial Art which has been developed through the centuries...."

Page 11

"TKD Hyungs have ben developed and perfected throughout the centuries by outstanding teachers of the art."


Chung - Gun and Toi-Gye of Tae Kwon Do Hyung - Jhoon Rhee
1971

 

[Cyriacus]

The extent of My Taught Knowledge of TKD History: This System was founded in 1965.

QUOTE]

I think you should get your n\money back from whoever taught you this. The first english edition was published in 1965 and there was a Korean edition before this. The system was founded before the books were published.

I didnt say thats when TKD was founded - I said, that thats when THIS System of it was Founded, or Organisation rather. I perhaps ought to have been more specific.

 

[Twin Fist]

dont get your feelings in a twist just becasue someone is telling the truth about your arts.....history

the koreans took shotokan, called it something else and marketed it as thier own

thats theft since they didnt credit the original source

the KKW made up a 2000 year history lie, and printed it and they repete it to this day.

thats a lie

korean martial arts are based on theft and lies

it isnt my fault

dont blame the messenger

If a few white people claim that the Holocaust never happened and printed it up on their website and put it down in their books and their flyers, had other white people as well as other racists claiming the same thing then it should be OK for me to say when it comes to exploitation and extermination of other cultures, white people are liars. After all we have the proof of those sites existing.

Based on your logic TF, that is OK since you felt it was OK to call all Koreans liars when it comes to martial arts.

 

[Twin Fist]

thus ends the lesson

A funny story, actually: I trained in Duk Sung Son's Chung Do Kwan and kyokushin karate at the same time.I stared in Duk Sung Son's "Korean Karate" when I was 11. When I was 13 I went to boarding school, where no form of tae kwon do was availabl, but there was kyokushin instruction. When I started that, I found, much to my surprise, that the Pyung Ahns of Tae Kwon Do and the Pinans of kyokushin (which were from Oyama Sosai's study of Shotokan directly under Funakoshi) were almost identical. I'd go home for vacations and practice with my tae kwon do class, and go back to school and practice kyokushin-with both of my teachers being completely aware of it. Eventually I wound up choosing one art, but-at the time-neither teacher could definitively say why they had such similar kata. Of course, later it became clear that it was what you've obviously overstated here, and MAist25 has added historical perspective to .For me, the Kyokushin instruction was better quality, and had bunkai that made more sense of the kata-though both of them had diverged a bit from the original Shotokan kata(for best results, start the lower, Korean version first, then immediately start the Japanese version):

 

[Twin Fist]

, then why wouldn't Shotokan Fall into the Same category? Why wouldn't Judo? Certainly the Shorin System would as well, would it not? How about Aikido?

shotokan perhaps, since i dont know enough about the shuri=te it evolved from to know if it as different enough to be considered it's own entity

judo is a drasticly altered JJ, so no, not theft, IMO
Same with akido, IMO

 

[elder999]

1454002[/URL]]Well, I for one do not find your statements inaccurate, in so far as they refer to General Choi.

First and foremost he explicitly states that it is similar to dscovering fire or inventing the wheel. No single person or country can take credit for it. Secondly, he expressly references Shorin and Shorei systems and even refers to them as TKD, and thirdly, his 1965 book even contains the earlier patterns.

If you consider this theft and lies, then why wouldn't Shotokan Fall into the Same category? Why wouldn't Judo? Certainly the Shorin System would as well, would it not? How about Aikido?

Or, for that matter, Kyokushinkaikan-since my sense of irony seems to wane after 2 a.m........seriously, though? I think there's a difference between openly borrowing and giving credit, and offering fairly blatant untruths as "real history," which some TKD instructors have been guilty of. Nationalism probably had a lot to do with it.

 

[Twin Fist]

yes, these are lies Earl

Well, based upon your OP I would put you in this category or at least think that when it comes to some of what he said would at the very least disagree with him or maybe even call him a lyer or thief.

Chung - Gun and Toi-Gye of Tae Kwon Do Hyung - Jhoon Rhee
1971


Page 10

"TKD is a Korean Martial Art which has been developed through the centuries...."

Page 11

"TKD Hyungs have ben developed and perfected throughout the centuries by outstanding teachers of the art."


Chung - Gun and Toi-Gye of Tae Kwon Do Hyung - Jhoon Rhee
1971

 

[SahBumNimRush]

While I don't wholly disagree with your statements, as I understand it, Shotokan cannot take all of the credit for the 1940's-1960's TSD (precurser to TKD). A few of the pioneers had expertise and rank in Shudokan. Some had training in CMA's as well. Which is why the original kwans practiced forms not found in Shotokan, although many Shotokan forms were practiced.

Early TSD/TKD practitioners were called "head hunters." Why? no other MA emphasized kicking to the head, at least not to the extent of TSD/TKD. Now JMA's have adopted what TSD/TKD used with such success (at least in sparring). The head kicks are why so many of the traditional bunkai from the JMA's don't work in the same way TSD/TKD practitioners execute them. Also, the mechanics of the kicks are different. Why? Where did the altered mechanics come from? I can't say with certainty, but I would believe that the long standing tradition of kicking in KMA's probably had something to do with it.

To clarifiy, I do not support or propogate the idea that TKD is an ancient art. However, I also wouldn't say that it is, or ever was, merely repackaged Shotokan.

 

[elder999]

1454035[/URL]]While I don't wholly disagree with your statements, as I understand it, Shotokan cannot take all of the credit for the 1940's-1960's TSD (precurser to TKD). A few of the pioneers had expertise and rank in Shudokan. Some had training in CMA's as well. Which is why the original kwans practiced forms not found in Shotokan, although many Shotokan forms were practiced.

Early TSD/TKD practitioners were called "head hunters." Why? no other MA emphasized kicking to the head, at least not to the extent of TSD/TKD. Now JMA's have adopted what TSD/TKD used with such success (at least in sparring). The head kicks are why so many of the traditional bunkai from the JMA's don't work in the same way TSD/TKD practitioners execute them. Also, the mechanics of the kicks are different. Why? Where did the altered mechanics come from? I can't say with certainty, but I would believe that the long standing tradition of kicking in KMA's probably had something to do with it.

To clarifiy, I do not support or propogate the idea that TKD is an ancient art. However, I also wouldn't say that it is, or ever was, merely repackaged Shotokan.

Sort of.....shudokan's founder, Toyama, and the man who taught those four Korean masters-was a student of Itosu, of Shorin ryu.

Itosu invented the Shorin kata of Shotokan: the Pinans-thus, the Pinans are common to Shotokan and Shudokan, which might be why they became part of the original sets of TSD/TKD/MDK/CDK/SSK? patterns: everybody involved had them in common.....

...carry on. :lol:

 

[Manny]

Back in mid 80's when I got inside TKD many people didin't get it or know it, so that's why my former sambonim told us it was Korean Karate, even he advertised that way. As I progresed on the kup ladder my former sambonim (a Jido Kwan member) told us TKD was 2000 years roots and that ancient TKD was TSD and SBD. back in those days we hadn't PC or internet and we had very few books, the only one avaibable in those years was the one written by Richard Chun.

Right now with all the internet we have realiced that TKD was created in the mid 50's and was a colaboration of Gen Choi with some GM Kwan memebers by a request of Korea's President, that Gen Choi was student of Funakoshi or so and earned black belt in karate do (shotokan?).

In the beginings TKD and Shotokan were alike, but trying to erase any trace of japanese the KTA ann Then WTF began to change and modify the art to evolve it in a kicking martial art.

So TKD was karate Do.... well in the begining yes (Clasic TKD) but then evolved in what is today, however, we must realice we some similitudes with karate do.

Manny

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Sort of.....shudokan's founder, Toyama, and the man who taught those four Korean masters-was a student of Itosu, of Shorin ryu.

Itosu invented the Shorin kata of Shotokan: the Pinans-thus, the Pinans are common to Shotokan and Shudokan, which might be why they became part of the original sets of TSD/TKD/MDK/CDK/SSK? patterns: everybody involved had them in common.....

...carry on. :lol:

I agree with the Pyung Ahns/Pinans/Heians being from Itosu, thus both Shudokan and Shotokan. However, I was referring to the yudanja level form sets that are not found in Shotokan, such as Rohai (Shudokan), Seisan, and Jang Kwon (Chinese). Granted most of the traditional form sets were found in shotokan; Pyung Ahn (Pinan/Heian), Bassai, Chinto (Gankaku), Naihanchi (Tekki), Kang Song Kun (Kanku/Kusanku), Ship Soo (Jitte), Jion, Wanshu (Empi).