Cross legs

[Hanzou]

You pull down on one arm using both hands and slip under / turn under the arm that you have just pulled down. This causes the arm to extend. It's the same thing the BJJ practitioner did in the video that I've shown. But you have to do it as soon as you feel that arm coming around one they lock the grab around your neck then you'll have to use a different method.

Notice how he addresses the grab before it locks. When grappling, I address the grab as soon as I know that my opponent will grab me.

Bro....

These;

are two completely different techniques using completely different principles.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Are you going to 2 on 1 his wrist and twist it while yanking it forward and then from that wrist grip and attempt a shoulder throw?

Yes on the 2 on 1 on the arm and wrist. One and is on the forearm and the other is closer to the wrist. I want to make sure that he cannot lock his grip. I pull down on the the arm and at the same time I begin to turn my body which actually twists the arm. This entire process does a lot of things at the same time. The 2 main things is that it beings to change the angle at which the arm can bend and it presents a continuous change of direction which makes it difficult for someone to strong arm there way out of you twisting. All of this should happen with haste as if you are trying to escape.

The yanking forward doesn't happen until the end. You first have use the weight of your body to by lowering your stance and pulling downward at 45 degree angle then pull it forward, This change in direction will cause the person to loose balance and that's when you pull forward. The hand that was placed on the forearm initially should be able to slide of the elbow if needed. This way you can push down with that hand and pull up with the hand controlling the wrist (if needed).

This drop in stance is similar performs a similar purpose has what we saw in the bjj where he gets low and gets a circular pull on the arm. But instead of moving behind the opponent I stay front of the opponent moving away from the opponent. But off to the outside of the arm that I'm pulling.

Someone grabbing you from behind is a completely different situation than someone coming in from your front, and requires an entirely different response. I'm very interested to see how you respond to my query above, because what you're saying now doesn't make sense.

The only way I really know how to explain it is through that application that I use where I skip step 1 of the technique and move to step 2 of the technique.. It was one of the techniques that one of the brothers made a big fuss about before he died. Out of everything it was the one technique that he really wanted students to understand if nothing else..

It's the only one that I know that has as many uses and flexibility in terms of not having to follow Step 1 - Step 4 in order. But I won't get into all of that. I'll just explain 2 examples. The technique and the skipping of a step within the technique.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You'll see it when you see the gif. That entry wasn't based off a push, it's based on someone walking forward with their arm fully extended.

That goes to my comment in another post about this kind of "attack" really being a non-static drill that provides a moving partner in the desired position/structure for the technique. I

Watch some street fighting videos. Even with untrained people (i.e. the clowns who are emulating what they see in boxing and MMA) it's highly improbable for you to ever be able to grab their wrists and manipulate their entire arm with a one to one grip from a boxing guard. It simply isn't going to happen. With a trained boxer it's simply not possible unless you're a grown man fighting a 5 year old.

Guess I wasn't clear - I was saying untrained folks often leave that arm out somewhat after a punch, so it doesn't make it back to anything like a boxing guard. It seems to be an individual tendency for some folks. The one-handed manipulation, in any case, will only have a chance of working if their structure is broken quickly. If they're upright and stable, they'll pull that arm back when it's pulled.

 

[Hanzou]

Yes on the 2 on 1 on the arm and wrist. One and is on the forearm and the other is closer to the wrist. I want to make sure that he cannot lock his grip. I pull down on the the arm and at the same time I begin to turn my body which actually twists the arm. This entire process does a lot of things at the same time. The 2 main things is that it beings to change the angle at which the arm can bend and it presents a continuous change of direction which makes it difficult for someone to strong arm there way out of you twisting. All of this should happen with haste as if you are trying to escape.

The yanking forward doesn't happen until the end. You first have use the weight of your body to by lowering your stance and pulling downward at 45 degree angle then pull it forward, This change in direction will cause the person to loose balance and that's when you pull forward. The hand that was placed on the forearm initially should be able to slide of the elbow if needed. This way you can push down with that hand and pull up with the hand controlling the wrist (if needed).

This drop in stance is similar performs a similar purpose has what we saw in the bjj where he gets low and gets a circular pull on the arm. But instead of moving behind the opponent I stay front of the opponent moving away from the opponent. But off to the outside of the arm that I'm pulling.


The only way I really know how to explain it is through that application that I use where I skip step 1 of the technique and move to step 2 of the technique.. It was one of the techniques that one of the brothers made a big fuss about before he died. Out of everything it was the one technique that he really wanted students to understand if nothing else..

It's the only one that I know that has as many uses and flexibility in terms of not having to follow Step 1 - Step 4 in order. But I won't get into all of that. I'll just explain 2 examples. The technique and the skipping of a step within the technique.

Yeah, I'm going to need to actually see this motion, because what you're talking about seems over complicated. I mean why not simply do this;

Also once again, you're not talking about the same principle as the throw shown in gif that Wang posted.

 

[Hanzou]

That goes to my comment in another post about this kind of "attack" really being a non-static drill that provides a moving partner in the desired position/structure for the technique.

The problem though is that the overextended arm doing a salute while walking forward automatically off balances Uke, making the throw infinitely easier to do and simply unrealistic. Also if you watch the clip, you can see that Uke is clearly throwing himself.

Guess I wasn't clear - I was saying untrained folks often leave that arm out somewhat after a punch, so it doesn't make it back to anything like a boxing guard. It seems to be an individual tendency for some folks. The one-handed manipulation, in any case, will only have a chance of working if their structure is broken quickly. If they're upright and stable, they'll pull that arm back when it's pulled.

Except he wasn't manipulating one hand, he was manipulating both by grabbing the wrists on a one to one, with his opponent in boxing guard. That's not happening.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Bro....

These;

are two completely different techniques using completely different principles.

Yeah you asked me about how I pull someone's arm straight for when they grab me from behind. So in the first clip that you show (below) That turning that he does. I don't turn behind the person. I step away from the person. In the clip he only turns. I turned and steped away from him because my intention was not to get behind the person. When you turn and step away that arm will extend. He's also using a narrow stance where mine was wider and lower. In the clip there's no way to pull the person as I described if you are that close. But if you step back you get that the opportunity to pull down and and at a 45 degree angle.. The reason you have to pull down first is because your opponent will have a higher stance. You want him to bend over a little more like what you see here. You want him in that awkward position because it's difficult to maintain a good structure when you pull downward at at 45 degree angle then switch it up on him by then pulling horizontal. Think of it as you trying to get him low enough to the ground where you can drag his face across the ground.

The awkward position and the twisted arm will keep him from being able to use that arm to resist. You'll know when you get that arm locked because you'll feel tension as if you were to continue something will pop out or break. So keep that in mind if you are using this with a training partners. Things like this don't just throw, but they also damage the joints in process when the person tries to resist.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Also once again, you're not talking about the same principle as the throw shown in gif that Wang posted.

I'm not talking about the attack that is used in the demo. That's the part that I wouldn't factor into the "how to use" the technique. Jow Ga has a few things like that and I threw them away. If I demo a concept I want it to be based on something that someone is most like to be attacked with.. By doing that it's easier to grasp concept and the student doesn't need to spend 4 months digging into the concept trying to find a practical application.

If I'm doing a demo, I may not care as much because at that point I'm not teaching, just showing off some concept to a group of people who will enjoy the show but aren't likely to sign up as members. If I'm doing a seminar, self-defense class, or teaching a class, I get rid of those concept examples of how to apply the technique.

That's probably what the other instructor didn't like about my sparring classes. In the regular classes he would demo the concept of an application, when he was in my sparring class, I probably contradict a lot of that stuff he was teaching on how things work. I kept my stuff practical. I had 2 hours to spend to train people how to apply the techniques so the less concept the better. I mostly stuck to the mechanics of things and human behavior when teaching.

I didn't think about it until just now, but he probably thought I was arrogant for teaching that way.

 

[Hanzou]

Yeah you asked me about how I pull someone's arm straight for when they grab me from behind. So in the first clip that you show (below) That turning that he does. I don't turn behind the person. I step away from the person. In the clip he only turns. I turned and steped away from him because my intention was not to get behind the person. When you turn and step away that arm will extend. He's also using a narrow stance where mine was wider and lower. In the clip there's no way to pull the person as I described if you are that close. But if you step back you get that the opportunity to pull down and and at a 45 degree angle.. The reason you have to pull down first is because your opponent will have a higher stance. You want him to bend over a little more like what you see here. You want him in that awkward position because it's difficult to maintain a good structure when you pull downward at at 45 degree angle then switch it up on him by then pulling horizontal. Think of it as you trying to get him low enough to the ground where you can drag his face across the ground.

The awkward position and the twisted arm will keep him from being able to use that arm to resist. You'll know when you get that arm locked because you'll feel tension as if you were to continue something will pop out or break. So keep that in mind if you are using this with a training partners. Things like this don't just throw, but they also damage the joints in process when the person tries to resist.

I'm familiar with the techniques shown in the video because I learned the exact same techniques in Gracie JJ (except the Yoko Wakare, which is an interesting variation that I need to try at some point), so I understand what he's doing in the video. My question is how do you think that any of that is the same principle as this;

 

[JowGaWolf]

Except he wasn't manipulating one hand, he was manipulating both by grabbing the wrists on a one to one, with his opponent in boxing guard. That's not happening.

I haven't made any comments about that video where he controls 2 hands. My rule for dealing with someone in guard is to deal with the lead hand.. Of all the rules I have that's my stubborn one that I start yelling when I see student's ignore the lead hand .

I've been in situations where I have controlled both hands, but never by attacking someone standing in a boxer's guard. I definitely don't see myself as using it as an entry tactic.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The problem though is that the overextended arm doing a salute while walking forward automatically off balances Uke, making the throw infinitely easier to do and simply unrealistic. Also if you watch the clip, you can see that Uke is clearly throwing himself.

I agree that demo seems to be lacking some fundamentals. I'd like to feel that throw from that guy and see if I'm missing something.

Except he wasn't manipulating one hand, he was manipulating both by grabbing the wrists on a one to one, with his opponent in boxing guard. That's not happening.

I'm not good at picturing what he was talking about. It didn't sound like something I'd consider workable, but I might not be picturing it right. I was just talking about getting ahold of a hand from a punch, not really the specific situation.

 

[Hanzou]

I agree that demo seems to be lacking some fundamentals. I'd like to feel that throw from that guy and see if I'm missing something.

Agreed.

I'm not good at picturing what he was talking about. It didn't sound like something I'd consider workable, but I might not be picturing it right. I was just talking about getting ahold of a hand from a punch, not really the specific situation.

I'm talking about that.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Agreed.

I'm talking about that.

i understand what I'm seeing in the video but I would like to see the same thing done at a medium speed with evasion and punching. I can grab the guard, jam the guard, but that's only dealing with one hand and usually when I deal with the guard I get some kind of resistance either through evasion or trying to punch at the same time I'm attacking the guard. All it takes to have a bad day in that video is to miss the grab. I definitely wouldn't go for it on a person who mills (move their guard)

Edit: It's one thing to reach out to grab and another thing to strike at a guard. I've seen a lot of video or people reaching out with both hands and it usually doesn't turn out well..

 

[Hanzou]

i understand what I'm seeing in the video but I would like to see the same thing done at a medium speed with evasion and punching. I can grab the guard, jam the guard, but that's only dealing with one hand and usually when I deal with the guard I get some kind of resistance either through evasion or trying to punch at the same time I'm attacking the guard. All it takes to have a bad day in that video is to miss the grab. I definitely wouldn't go for it on a person who mills (move their guard)

Edit: It's one thing to reach out to grab and another thing to strike at a guard. I've seen a lot of video or people reaching out with both hands and it usually doesn't turn out well..

My main thought is that if someone is advancing like that, I'm immediately going to back up or circle and counter punch. I can't imagine anyone just standing there and letting you grab their wrists.

 

[JowGaWolf]

@Kung Fu Wang

What I just discovered a lot of holes in this approach. Too many opportunities for your opponent to counter here.
1. The moment both hands go up to reach mine is the exact moment you would be open for a front kick. I'm not sure because of the lens on the camera but it looks like your opponent isn't facing you correctly. The front foot should be pointed towards you. as well as that lead hand and it's not. This would either allow a jab while you are reaching out or a front kick to your mid section. So I'm thinking in the real world use, that the hands may not be where you are trying to grab.

2. I also learned a technique where I can counter that grab that you are doing with your left hand and then still give you a front kick. I tried your technique on my son and he was able to lock my wrist, with the lead hand.

I'm using the lines lines in the board to get an idea of your body positioning. I think your opponent's incorrect stance is what's allowing you to get away with this. Even with the stance pointing in the wrong direction, All he really would need to do is to pivot on that right foot or step back with the right foot and your technique would be void. If he pivots on the font leg then you'll be in danger of getting hit in face.

Not sure how many times would be able to get away with this if at all, especially if the person knows how to switch stance and kick. Just pointing the lead foot towards your center would make this very difficult for you to pull off.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What I just discovered a lot of holes in this approach. Too many opportunities for your opponent to counter here.

The "捧(Peng) - Arm raising" can be used for many different purposes.

- body squeeze
- shoulder throw
- sickle hook
- elbow lock
- foot sweep
- ...

Can his opponent's

- left hand punches his face?
- right leg kicks his chest?

Of course it's all possible. That's why it's better for him to control his opponent's left arm first.

1. Control left arm 1st.
2. Control right arm afterward.

If he fails on step 1, there is no need to go to step 2.

You try not to give your opponent any free arms. Your opponent also tries not to let you to control his arms. Who will succeed? Who will fail? It all depends on individual's training and experience.

This is why MA is so interested and exciting.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It all depends on individual's training and experience.

This is true.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This is true.

This is why sometime the MA discussion can be difficult.

1. If you can't control your opponent arms, your wrestling skill is bad.
2. If someone can control your arms, you striking skill is bad.

1 and 2 just contradict to each other.

1. If you punch, I'll kick you.
2. The reason that I punch because I want you to kick me, so I can catch your kicking leg.

Which one make logical sense?

- 1 is right and 2 is wrong.
- 2 is right and 1 is wrong.

 

[JP3]

If you cross your legs/feet while engaged with a standing opponent, you open the "sweep-me" door VERY wide. Will they det it? I dunno, I don't know if the other guy has that tool in his bag... but why disadvantage myself?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

but why disadvantage myself?

That's the main point. Why do you want to cross your legs and put yourself in disadvantage situation?

 

[JP3]

That's the main point. Why do you want to cross your legs and put yourself in disadvantage situation?

I wouldn't if I could help it.