Cross legs

[JowGaWolf]

I have no issue with the first video in the OP, it's this gif that is suspect;

I have literally never seen that pulled off under resistance, even in Olympic Judo which contains the best jacket throwers in the world. Also it honestly looks like Uke is purposely throwing himself.

That post didn't even show up when I was posting. I thought I was the only responding.

I have no issue with the first video in the OP, it's this gif that is suspect;

I have literally never seen that pulled off under resistance, even in Olympic Judo which contains the best jacket throwers in the world. Also it honestly looks like Uke is purposely throwing himself.

The throw looks like it utilizes a shoulder and elbow lock to complete the throw. The arm is turn in such a way that it won't bend. There's a similar technique to that but you don't bend over to do the technique. You stand straight so the arm will break. I wouldn't consider this one a beginner technique. I wouldn't teach this to some knuckle head beginner who things stuff doesn't work. I've seen many injuries caused by students like that.

But back to the video. It's a demo. The most we can do is to figure out what opportunity would allow us to twist someone's arm around so that it doesn't bend and then throw them as shown. Of the top of my head, I can think of pushing attempts and hair grab attempts. I can't see this in an gi grab attempt in competition. Probably more street use than competition use.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I think Wang just needs a video that better represents what he means by crossing legs in front of opponents while in striking range.

Watch the person on the right of this clip.

Bagua-cross-legs-sweep

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That's two grapplers grip fighting. In your clip you had a guy in a boxing guard and tori grabbed both his wrists.

A wrestler can use boxing guard too.

 

[Hanzou]

But back to the video. It's a demo. The most we can do is to figure out what opportunity would allow us to twist someone's arm around so that it doesn't bend and then throw them as shown. Of the top of my head, I can think of pushing attempts and hair grab attempts. I can't see this in an gi grab attempt in competition. Probably more street use than competition use.

Except you'll never get that opportunity because NO ONE will ever attack you with their arm straight and walking slowly towards you.

 

[Hanzou]

A wrestler can use boxing guard too.

Yeah, if they're trying to punch you, which makes it highly improbable that you'll be able to grab both their wrists out of the air. The concept of grabbing wrists while someone is trying to punch you in the face is pure fantasy.

 

[drop bear]

When you cross legs in front of your opponent, your opponent can sweep you.

But when you cross your legs, if you move your foot over your other leg knee, your opponent cannot sweep you.

Is this guideline important, or not important to you? Your thought?

I am pretty sure that wouldn't stop someone kicking your leg out.

I am not against cross stopping as a rule break. By the way.

 

[drop bear]

Depends.

In the first video no one is close enough to sweep. In the second video Yellow should be off balancing White with the step to make countering more difficult.

It is a very anti judo style throw which generally doesn't employ that drag forwards.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Cross stepping is a good way to close distance when you need to, just as long as you're out of distance first. it can also work for throws, but personally, it only seems worth the risk if you're confident that there's a very small window of time (or the other person is sufficiently distracted for the window of time) where you've got your legs crossed and they have balance.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Yeah, if they're trying to punch you, which makes it highly improbable that you'll be able to grab both their wrists out of the air. The concept of grabbing wrists while someone is trying to punch you in the face is pure fantasy.

Not if your opponent just raises his boxing guard and play defense.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Except you'll never get that opportunity because NO ONE will ever attack you with their arm straight and walking slowly towards you.

Don't think of the attack. skip that and throw it out. Think of similar instances when someone has an outstretch arm, the key in that demo is an outstretched arm.

I'm not saying these are the scenarios but they are examples of when an arm is outstretched. So don't think about how the person is attacking. Think about where the opportunity exists when the arm is outstretched. If the outstretched arm scenario isn't a likely scenario for you then think of a time where you had the opportunity to twist someone's arm in a similar manner. That would the second key.

For me personally I've twisted someone's arm like that. I was doing a self defense-training with a student on fighting multiple attackers. At the time I was only training 2 teens (it was just the 3 of us in the room) but a teen who didn't like me waled into the room and grabbed me around my neck from behind. I instantly grabbed his arm to prevent the lock twisted his arm so that the joints don't bend and threw him across the floor about 5 feet. When I say throw him, I don't mean a pick up in throw. I mean that after I locked his arm, I pulled him towards the ground at a 45 degree angle. He had no choice but to go with the throw because of how the arm was locked. He stumbled for about 2 feet and slide on the floor for about 3. I know it was at least 5 feet because I remember being shocked at how far he landed away from me. So I know there are opportunities to twist an attackers arm. In my case it was only a teen who was smaller than me. At the time it happened I wasn't sure because it happened around the same time that the thugs were trying to "catch me sleeping."

when you twist the arm a certain way, it will become stiff like wood and you'll know right away because it doesn't give and you can feel the tension. So don't think about someone attacking you exactly how you see it. Think of the key points. Are there opportunities to where someone extends their arm to push you, are there opportunities for you to twist someone's arm. All techniques don't start at Step 1. Sometimes they start at Step 2 or step 3.

I'm not saying you are wrong about someone attacking you in the same manner that was shown. I'm just trying to expand your perception and to think if any of those scenarios may exist for you.

I can tell you that I have yet to have someone push me in a fight or an argument. When things get heated I take a posture in which they are more worried about me punching so that makes them less likely to try to push me. I don't play the game where 2 people get face to face. The teen that jumped me from behind was the only person to ever do so, but all of that ended when he slid across the floor.

I'm more likely to be in a situation where I can twist someone's arm but not from an extended position like Wang showed

 

[Hanzou]

Not if your opponent just raises his boxing guard and play defense.

Uh, they still punch even when playing defense. No one is just going to stand there and let you grab their wrists.

Don't think of the attack. skip that and throw it out. Think of similar instances when someone has an outstretch arm, the key in that demo is an outstretched arm.

I'm not saying these are the scenarios but they are examples of when an arm is outstretched. So don't think about how the person is attacking. Think about where the opportunity exists when the arm is outstretched. If the outstretched arm scenario isn't a likely scenario for you then think of a time where you had the opportunity to twist someone's arm in a similar manner. That would the second key.

For me personally I've twisted someone's arm like that. I was doing a self defense-training with a student on fighting multiple attackers. At the time I was only training 2 teens (it was just the 3 of us in the room) but a teen who didn't like me waled into the room and grabbed me around my neck from behind. I instantly grabbed his arm to prevent the lock twisted his arm so that the joints don't bend and threw him across the floor about 5 feet. When I say throw him, I don't mean a pick up in throw. I mean that after I locked his arm, I pulled him towards the ground at a 45 degree angle. He had no choice but to go with the throw because of how the arm was locked. He stumbled for about 2 feet and slide on the floor for about 3. I know it was at least 5 feet because I remember being shocked at how far he landed away from me. So I know there are opportunities to twist an attackers arm. In my case it was only a teen who was smaller than me. At the time it happened I wasn't sure because it happened around the same time that the thugs were trying to "catch me sleeping."

when you twist the arm a certain way, it will become stiff like wood and you'll know right away because it doesn't give and you can feel the tension. So don't think about someone attacking you exactly how you see it. Think of the key points. Are there opportunities to where someone extends their arm to push you, are there opportunities for you to twist someone's arm. All techniques don't start at Step 1. Sometimes they start at Step 2 or step 3.

I'm not saying you are wrong about someone attacking you in the same manner that was shown. I'm just trying to expand your perception and to think if any of those scenarios may exist for you.

I can tell you that I have yet to have someone push me in a fight or an argument. When things get heated I take a posture in which they are more worried about me punching so that makes them less likely to try to push me. I don't play the game where 2 people get face to face. The teen that jumped me from behind was the only person to ever do so, but all of that ended when he slid across the floor.

I'm more likely to be in a situation where I can twist someone's arm but not from an extended position like Wang showed

Okay, there's a difference between someone pushing you, and walking slowly towards you with their arm straight out waiting for you to grab it and twirl it around twice.

I am thinking of the key points, and the basis around that entire throw revolves around a nonsensical starting point. It's like someone walking towards you with their arms stretched out just waiting for you to grab their wrist and throw them over your head. You ever wonder why you never see any Aikidoka grabbing punches out of the air and throwing people like their demos? It's the same reason you'll never see someone get thrown in that way outside of demos.

Also twisting the arm a certain way doesn't make it stiff. The only way you stiffen an arm is by controlling it's three points of movement: Wrist, Elbow, and Shoulder. Take your standard arm bar for example; your hands control the wrists, your hips control the elbow, and your legs and the ground control their shoulders.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Watch the person on the right of this clip.

Bagua-cross-legs-sweep

I had to watch that video 20 times before I could see the sweep. In that scenario he should have reverse the walk and walked counter clockwise. Had he done that, the sweep wouldn't have been possible. It's often referred to as a Bagua Circle, but it's not mandatory that you complete the circle before switching directions. The point at which someone would need to switch directions is when the opponent is no longer adjusting. in the clip that you should you can see that the guy just basically walks into the den of the tiger and gets swept.

Not maintaining the distance is was also an issue. If you are too far out then the walk doesn't work. If you are too far in then the walk doesn't work. If you are at the right distance of indecisiveness then it will work. You will see the person constantly adjusting and never really locking on. So as you showed in the clip. Walking that way would put you in danger when in range. The sweep that was used was a short sweep so theoretically there were a lot of things that could have landed at that point.

 

[Hanzou]

@skribs I guess you think Steven Segal movies are real.

 

[JowGaWolf]

@skribs I guess you think Steven Segal movies are real.

They aren't real? Steven Segal can beat Bruce Lee lol.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I am thinking of the key points, and the basis around that entire throw revolves around a nonsensical starting point.

One thing I learned with kung fu techniques is that the technique doesn't always start with Step 1. For example. Step 1 starts with someone walking slowly with a slow robot punch. Then you do movement 1.

So the question becomes: Well what do you do if they come at you with a push, or tries to grab your shoulder, or tries choke you from behind. Now the "Step 1" that we were shown no longer exists. Sometimes that Step 1 changes, other times it goes directly to Step 2 or maybe Step 3. Sometimes what looks like one technique with one starting point is actually "one technique" with multiple starting points.

I agree with you 100% about no one one is going to attack you as you described. I focus more on what can I do to lock my opponent's arm in such a way that I can throw them as they were throw in the clip. What should come to mind next is,

If the person does B then I can do C then D
If the person does F then I can do C then D

There are things in Jow Ga that were explained as a demo and I've thrown that demo right out of my mind, because if I don't, then I'm waiting for someone to throw a specific attack so I can use a specific response. That type of mindset is the worse way to learn martial arts, which is one of the major reasons why TMA students are so bad at application in addition to not sparring.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I had to watch that video 20 times before I could see the sweep.

If I walk around you toward your right, when I step in my right leg (the leg closer to you), your left leg can sweep my right leg almost effortless.

The issue is most of the foot sweep will require 2 contact points.

1. leg sweep leg.
2. hand pull shoulder.

But when I cross my legs, you can use 1 contact point (leg sweep leg). You don't even need that 2nd contact point (hand pull shoulder).

If I do something that can make you to take me down easily, that should be my fault.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

One thing I learned with kung fu techniques is that the technique doesn't always start with Step 1.

This is also I try to explain to Hanzou, when my opponent is in boxing guard, what chance do I have to control both of his arms?

Hook punch -> downward parry -> wrist grab

The wrist grabbing is hidden as step 3. The step 1 is hook punch.

 

[Flying Crane]

I had to watch that video 20 times before I could see the sweep. In that scenario he should have reverse the walk and walked counter clockwise. Had he done that, the sweep wouldn't have been possible. It's often referred to as a Bagua Circle, but it's not mandatory that you complete the circle before switching directions. The point at which someone would need to switch directions is when the opponent is no longer adjusting. in the clip that you should you can see that the guy just basically walks into the den of the tiger and gets swept.

Not maintaining the distance is was also an issue. If you are too far out then the walk doesn't work. If you are too far in then the walk doesn't work. If you are at the right distance of indecisiveness then it will work. You will see the person constantly adjusting and never really locking on. So as you showed in the clip. Walking that way would put you in danger when in range. The sweep that was used was a short sweep so theoretically there were a lot of things that could have landed at that point.

I am of the opinion that the circle walk is a training mechanism and is not meant to actually be done in a real fight. Certainly when you are out of reach of your enemy, walking that circle accomplishes nothing and possibly just expends your energy.

When in range to engage, the stepping pattern that is engrained by the training of the mechanism of the circle walk can be applied in a brief and quick one- or two-step entry that puts you into a position of advantage, IF you know what you are doing. But anyone who just starts walking in a circle around his enemy does not know what he is doing.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

But anyone who just starts walking in a circle around his enemy does not know what he is doing.

The proper circle walking should be:

Move your

- back foot (1 feet distance) to line up with both of your opponent's feet.
- leading foot (3 inch distance) to line up your back foot and your opponent's back foot.

This way you will never have to cross your legs, and you will always face your opponent.

 

[Hanzou]

One thing I learned with kung fu techniques is that the technique doesn't always start with Step 1. For example. Step 1 starts with someone walking slowly with a slow robot punch. Then you do movement 1.

So the question becomes: Well what do you do if they come at you with a push, or tries to grab your shoulder, or tries choke you from behind. Now the "Step 1" that we were shown no longer exists. Sometimes that Step 1 changes, other times it goes directly to Step 2 or maybe Step 3. Sometimes what looks like one technique with one starting point is actually "one technique" with multiple starting points.

I agree with you 100% about no one one is going to attack you as you described. I focus more on what can I do to lock my opponent's arm in such a way that I can throw them as they were throw in the clip. What should come to mind next is,

If the person does B then I can do C then D
If the person does F then I can do C then D

There are things in Jow Ga that were explained as a demo and I've thrown that demo right out of my mind, because if I don't, then I'm waiting for someone to throw a specific attack so I can use a specific response. That type of mindset is the worse way to learn martial arts, which is one of the major reasons why TMA students are so bad at application in addition to not sparring.

I would argue that TMA students are bad at application because the core of the application is bogus. If your application begins with the bogus notion that you can catch both wrists of someone punching at you, then everything related to that bogus application falls apart. If your throw revolves around a bogus entry, then it doesn't matter how much you practice that throw, you're never going to pull off that throw because the reasoning behind it will never present itself.

What you describe sounds a lot like Aikido. Not to pick on any art in particular, but the results from that sort of practice have not been favorable.