Cross legs

[Kung Fu Wang]

I would argue that TMA students are bad at application because the core of the application is bogus.

I don't know how others may train TMA. I prefer to train TMA with logic.

What's the most logic 1st punch that one can throw?

1. Jab
2. Hook
3. ...

What's the most logic 2nd punch that one can throw?

1. Jab, cross
2. Jab, hook
3. Jab, hook (same arm)
3. Hook, hook
4. Hook, cross
5. Hook, uppercut
6. ...

What's the most logic 3rd punch that one can throw?

1. Jab, cross, jab
2. Jab, cross, hook
3. Jab, hook, hook
4. Jab, hook, jab
5. Jab, hook, uppercut
6. Jab, hook (same arm), jab
7. Jab, hook (same arm), hook
8. Jab, hook (same arm), uppercut
9. ...

IMO, some combos don't make sense such as "Jab, uppercut" because when your opponent dodge your jab, the distance may be to far for your uppercut. In other words, not all combos make sense.

There is no way that your TMA teacher will teach you all those "meaningful" combos. But with logic, you should be able to come up a complete picture by yourself.

 

[Hanzou]

I don't know how others may train TMA. I prefer to train TMA with logic.

So is this "logic" telling you that you can catch both wrists while your attacker is attempting to punch you?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

So is this "logic" telling you that you can catch both wrists while your attacker is attempting to punch you?

As I have said, I don't wait for my opponent to punch me. I will punch him first.

I don't try to catch wrists when my opponent punch me. Only when my opponent is in boxing guard, I will start with a hook.

If I

- can make arm contact, I'll try to grab his arm.
- can't make arm contact, I'll throw my 2nd punch and attack the new opening.

 

[Hanzou]

As I have said, I don't wait for my opponent to punch me. I will punch him first.

I don't try to catch wrists when my opponent punch me. Only when my opponent is in boxing guard, I will start with a hook.

If I

- can make arm contact, I'll try to grab his arm.
- can't make arm contact, I'll throw my 2nd punch and attack the new opening.

Let's recap;

Guy in boxing guard, presumably threatening to attack you.

You grab both his wrists BEFORE he punches you, and control his arms completely with one on one arm control. It's not even a two on one which is standard for any sort of arm control.

I have never seen this even attempted, much less pulled off in actual fighting. Probably because anyone attempting it would get their head knocked off.

 

[JowGaWolf]

What you describe sounds a lot like Aikido. Not to pick on any art in particular, but the results from that sort of practice have not been favorable.

nope it's not Akiko. I didn't flow with any thing. My success was preventing the lock around my neck, slipping under the hold and turning so that I face the person that grabbed me. This process will automatically twist your attacker's arm provided that you don't let go and that the wrist doesn't twist withing your grip. By the time you are facing the opponent pull down towards the ground at a 45 using your body weight then suddenly pull horizontally the. This causes inbalance and prevents the person from twisting out of it, the first thing the body will do is try to fight being pulled down, the second is to fight against a horizontal pull, which at this point the person no longer has the structure to resist much.

It's like walking forward, tripping and trying to prevent both downward movement and horizontal movement at the same time. The locking of the elbow from the twist also breaks the structure.

Similar concept to seen @1:07, Explanation of throw @6:45 but to the outside and not the inside. The twisting locks the arm so that it cannot bend properly. The way that I did it required me to step away from the person and not toward him. He's actually in a similar position that wang showed in the clip, which is why I said don't worry about the entry just focus on the key parts, the twisting of the arm to lock it, and then placing it on your shoulder. If you bend, it becomes a throw, if you stand tall, and just pull down then it breaks or damages the arm.

There was no flow or use of his power. Simply twist the arm in a way that it can't bend, pull the person in multiple directions and then give a long pull like you are pulling on an horizontal rope and you are trying to get the most distance from one pull. Once someone locks your elbow, you can either resist and risk breaking your arm or resist by turning into it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

As I have said, I don't wait for my opponent to punch me. I will punch him first.

I don't try to catch wrists when my opponent punch me. Only when my opponent is in boxing guard, I will start with a hook.

If I

- can make arm contact, I'll try to grab his arm.
- can't make arm contact, I'll throw my 2nd punch and attack the new opening.

This is similar to how I handle punches, I want to get to them before they get too far out of the chamber. The closer I can get to that elbow, the less movement there will be for me to have to deal with. The elbow pretty much stays within the same area, unlike the punch that travels far and retreats far. Even when I trying to disrupt a punch I'm trying to attack the punch early before it extends completely. I parry punches the same way. I don't parry the end of the punch. If I parry the end of a punch it's either because I was slow getting to the elbow so my parry just made contact at the end, or when the punch isn't going to reach me anyway. In this case the parry is to help discourage someone from wanting to charge in with punches.

 

[Hanzou]

nope it's not Akiko. I didn't flow with any thing. My success was preventing the lock around my neck, slipping under the hold and turning so that I face the person that grabbed me. This process will automatically twist your attacker's arm provided that you don't let go and that the wrist doesn't twist withing your grip. By the time you are facing the opponent pull down towards the ground at a 45 using your body weight then suddenly pull horizontally the. This causes inbalance and prevents the person from twisting out of it, the first thing the body will do is try to fight being pulled down, the second is to fight against a horizontal pull, which at this point the person no longer has the structure to resist much.

It's like walking forward, tripping and trying to prevent both downward movement and horizontal movement at the same time. The locking of the elbow from the twist also breaks the structure.

I'm not talking about you "flowing" with anything. I'm talking about the two gifs that Wang put up and why the fundamental principles in both are bad. Since they're bad, there's no amount of applications that will make them good because they're both based on bogus core concepts. I don't know how or why we got to talking about you spinning around at various angles.

Similar concept to seen @1:07, Explanation of throw @6:45 but to the outside and not the inside. The twisting locks the arm so that it cannot bend properly. The way that I did it required me to step away from the person and not toward him. He's actually in a similar position that wang showed in the clip, which is why I said don't worry about the entry just focus on the key parts, the twisting of the arm to lock it, and then placing it on your shoulder. If you bend, it becomes a throw, if you stand tall, and just pull down then it breaks or damages the arm.

No he isn't. Look at what he's doing in that clip. He's using boxing parries to block, he has 2 on 1 wrist control, he back steps so that his body is at an angle, and he's dropping to one knee. None of that happened in Wang's clip. And yes, the entry ALWAYS matters. The entry in that video is based on very sound principles, and since it's based on sound principles, you can pull off stuff like that last technique and pretty much everything else those two demonstrated in the video. In fact, the instructor in that video even talks about how the stuff that Wang showed doesn't work (6:04 mark).

Also it really should be mentioned that that last technique isn't really a throw. It's a wrist break that causes your opponent to face plant. The reason Uke flips is to avoid the wrist break and having his body be driven to the floor. That's something you commonly see in Aikido training. Now, it can cause a throw if the person leaps forward out of pain, but that's not a shoulder throw.

There was no flow or use of his power. Simply twist the arm in a way that it can't bend, pull the person in multiple directions and then give a long pull like you are pulling on an horizontal rope and you are trying to get the most distance from one pull. Once someone locks your elbow, you can either resist and risk breaking your arm or resist by turning into it.

Yeah, you're missing a few steps there. He didn't just "twist the arm", he broke his opponent down, he quickly moved off his opponent's center line and dropped his weight while controlling the wrist. Moving off the center line and dropping to one knee is key here because that gives you the driving power to actually perform the technique;

You didn't see that at all here;

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Except you'll never get that opportunity because NO ONE will ever attack you with their arm straight and walking slowly towards you.

My connection is really slow right now, so I can't see the GIF to understand what throw we're talking about, but off something like a push, if you end up with a grip on their arm (one possible branch if you brush off their push before it makes contact), the arm can end up straight with a small pull. To get under it while straight you'd have to have their structure broken at about the same time as that small pull. This gets into the branching model of working with where each next bit of movement leaves you.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah, if they're trying to punch you, which makes it highly improbable that you'll be able to grab both their wrists out of the air. The concept of grabbing wrists while someone is trying to punch you in the face is pure fantasy.

For anyone reasonably trained, it shouldn't happen unless they are somehow taken off balance as they punch. Which is pretty sketchy. For untrained people, leaving the arm out is pretty common. I only know that because I've spent a lot of time teaching people NOT to leave an arm out after punching - some people tend to retract 25-50% of the way back. I've never paid enough attention to the proportions, but I'd guess it's something close to half of the untrained (or badly trained) folks I've worked with.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Not if your opponent just raises his boxing guard and play defense.

In that situation, it seems unlikely you'll get the arms straight. They start at least 90 degrees bent and with some tension in them, so they'll feel the first movement of you straightening them. The natural reaction to that is pulling in. Unless you really break their structure, that should stop the whole process.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Uh, they still punch even when playing defense. No one is just going to stand there and let you grab their wrists.



Okay, there's a difference between someone pushing you, and walking slowly towards you with their arm straight out waiting for you to grab it and twirl it around twice.

I am thinking of the key points, and the basis around that entire throw revolves around a nonsensical starting point. It's like someone walking towards you with their arms stretched out just waiting for you to grab their wrist and throw them over your head. You ever wonder why you never see any Aikidoka grabbing punches out of the air and throwing people like their demos? It's the same reason you'll never see someone get thrown in that way outside of demos.

Also twisting the arm a certain way doesn't make it stiff. The only way you stiffen an arm is by controlling it's three points of movement: Wrist, Elbow, and Shoulder. Take your standard arm bar for example; your hands control the wrists, your hips control the elbow, and your legs and the ground control their shoulders.

It's my opinion that the "attacks" used in most classical Japanese training are more about putting uke in the position you'd start the technique, with some movement to force timing. The actual attack coming in is just being used to get them moving and in position. Part of this is about working on pattern recognition - when you are grappling with someone and hit a similar position with similar movement, you recognize it and use the technique. And they are set up so that a beginner can recognize what's coming. This is why so many of the movements look so horribly stylized. Granted, they are often touted as valid attacks or valid stand-ins for similar attacks (chop to the head being similar to a punch?), but I think that's a misunderstanding of the training method and/or an attemt at rationalization.

 

[JowGaWolf]

No he isn't. Look at what he's doing in that clip. He's using boxing parries to block, he has 2 on 1 wrist control, he back steps so that his body is at an angle, and he's dropping to one knee.

See picture below. This is where I see the twisted arm.

There are numerous ways that can lead to your opponent's arm being like this. You grabbing their arm. Them grabbing your arm, and you countering the grab. Someone grabbing you from behind. How they attack is not as important as what you do with with that arm after you have it. How they attack will only determine the degree of difficulty that it will take for you to get to this point. Body level and body height play more of an important role of not being able to do this .

No one could ever follow through with this, if I stand in a low kung fu stance. Because they wouldn't be able to twist under my arm as shown here. The would still be able to twist my arm in other ways, but it wouldn't lead to them twisting under my arm.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

See picture below. This is where I see the twisted arm.
View attachment 23309

There are numerous ways that can lead to your opponent's arm being like this. You grabbing their arm. Them grabbing your arm, and you countering the grab. Someone grabbing you from behind. How they attack is not as important as what you do with with that arm after you have it. How they attack will only determine the degree of difficulty that it will take for you to get to this point. Body level and body height play more of an important role of not being able to do this .

No one could ever follow through with this, if I stand in a low kung fu stance. Because they wouldn't be able to twist under my arm as shown here. The would still be able to twist my arm in other ways, but it wouldn't lead to them twisting under my arm.

I would argue even that point, he should have broken his partner's structure more. The twist takes a while to lock out the upper body (conjunctive locking), and a little structure-breaking can give enough time control to get there.

 

[Hanzou]

My connection is really slow right now, so I can't see the GIF to understand what throw we're talking about, but off something like a push, if you end up with a grip on their arm (one possible branch if you brush off their push before it makes contact), the arm can end up straight with a small pull. To get under it while straight you'd have to have their structure broken at about the same time as that small pull. This gets into the branching model of working with where each next bit of movement leaves you.

You'll see it when you see the gif. That entry wasn't based off a push, it's based on someone walking forward with their arm fully extended.

For anyone reasonably trained, it shouldn't happen unless they are somehow taken off balance as they punch. Which is pretty sketchy. For untrained people, leaving the arm out is pretty common. I only know that because I've spent a lot of time teaching people NOT to leave an arm out after punching - some people tend to retract 25-50% of the way back. I've never paid enough attention to the proportions, but I'd guess it's something close to half of the untrained (or badly trained) folks I've worked with.

Watch some street fighting videos. Even with untrained people (i.e. the clowns who are emulating what they see in boxing and MMA) it's highly improbable for you to ever be able to grab their wrists and manipulate their entire arm with a one to one grip from a boxing guard. It simply isn't going to happen. With a trained boxer it's simply not possible unless you're a grown man fighting a 5 year old.

 

[Hanzou]

See picture below. This is where I see the twisted arm.
View attachment 23309

That's in mid-pivot after he's broken structure. In fact, at that point he's moving out of his attacker's center line and backstepping into his weighted drop. It's at the mid point of this gif when he's rotating the arm over his head and shoulder;

There are numerous ways that can lead to your opponent's arm being like this. You grabbing their arm. Them grabbing your arm, and you countering the grab. Someone grabbing you from behind. How they attack is not as important as what you do with with that arm after you have it. How they attack will only determine the degree of difficulty that it will take for you to get to this point. Body level and body height play more of an important role of not being able to do this .

Are you seriously still arguing this point? The entry and how you got to that point in the picture is the entire ballgame. If someone is grabbing you from behind and you grab their wrist and are twisting it, you're not going to be able to do what he's doing in the gif above, you have to do an entirely different technique.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I would argue even that point, he should have broken his partner's structure more. The twist takes a while to lock out the upper body (conjunctive locking), and a little structure-breaking can give enough time control to get there.

The picture is from a walk through so you aren't going to see that structure breaking because he's explaining what he's doing. That's why I posted the the time frame at which he explains what he's doing. The only thing I'm highlighting with that picture is the twisting of the arm. Which Hanzou was saying didn't occur

I can only assume he's doing what I do when I teach a technique that has multiple key points. I talk about one first then talk about structure breaking second

 

[JowGaWolf]

Are you seriously still arguing this point? The entry and how you got to that point in the picture is the entire ballgame.

Yes I'm still discussing the point of entry because there are techniques i use that don't require you to enter a specific way. There are multiple ways to get do the technique. For example, What wang shows in his clip. If I'm grabbed from behind around the neck. I could lock the arm in the exact same way as you see it in the in his video. The technique is the same the attack is different.

One of the things I don't like about TMA is the mindset of when someone does "A then I do B" students get stuck on that and they wait forever for that one attack. The way I train and see techniques is similar to When A then do B. Wnen C then do B, When F then do B. If you get stuck on A then you'll be waiting for a long time for that to happen.

In this case, A = someone walking up to you with the extended arm. that you say would never happen. For me and my experience, A has never happened. So, When A then do B, is not realistic to me. However. When C (someone trying to grab me from behind) has happened more than twice and many times that gives me the opportunity to do B (twist arm)

So what I'm saying is don't get caught up on saying that a technique is invalid because the "entry is wrong." or not "realistic" There's alot of things in TMA that are demo that are not what you and I would call realistic attacks. But I can take that same technique and show you how it's used against another attack or how to use it offensively. Jow ga there's a technique that is used when your opponent attacks you. This attack is shown to all Jow Ga students.. If that's the specific attack that you are waiting on , then you will be waiting a long time for that type of attack to come along. However, if you take off Step1 one, of the technique which is dealing with an incoming punch, then you can start with step 2 and use it as an offensive technique.

It's the same technique with step 1 missing. I've only been able to pull off the school demo version of it twice in my life , but starting with step 2, I can pull it off with ease and at will, there's just more opportunity to use it when starting from step 2. I can use it against a number of straight punches and from various angles, where with step 1, I have to be in a specific angle facing my opponent in order for it to work. Will I ever use step one 1? of course but only if that opportunity comes. Realistically speaking, the types of punches that most people are doing, I can skip step 1.

If I show you this technique from step 1, then you will look at it and say that it's crap. If I show you this technique from step 2, then it would be hard for you to have the same opinion of it.

 

[Flying Crane]

The proper circle walking should be:

Move your

- back foot (1 feet distance) to line up with both of your opponent's feet.
- leading foot (3 inch distance) to line up your back foot and your opponent's back foot.

This way you will never have to cross your legs, and you will always face your opponent.

I’ve not trained bagua so I don’t know the proper stepping for the circle walk. But that is a different issue from the point I was making.

My point: if you are circle-walking around your enemy at a distance where you cannot touch each other, cannot use that stepping to create an advantageous position, literally just walking around him while he pivots to face you, then you are accomplishing nothing and are doing it wrong. Whatever benefits the circle-walking is supposed to have, they do not exist in this scenarios.

I point this out because that is what I saw happening in that video. Ive seen it in other videos too. I don’t know why these people seem to think, “oh, I train bagua, so I need to start walking in a circle around the other guy...”

No, ya don’t.

 

[Hanzou]

Yes I'm still discussing the point of entry because there are techniques i use that don't require you to enter a specific way. There are multiple ways to get do the technique. For example, What wang shows in his clip. If I'm grabbed from behind around the neck. I could lock the arm in the exact same way as you see it in the in his video. The technique is the same the attack is different.

If your assailant has his arm wrapped around your neck, how are you going to remove his grip around your neck and extend his arm straight into the air? Are you going to 2 on 1 his wrist and twist it while yanking it forward and then from that wrist grip and attempt a shoulder throw? I assure you, you won't be successful unless you're throwing a child, and while you're wasting time attempting that bogus throw, the assailant who is still behind you can do all sorts of nasty stuff to you. The no-gi grip for a shoulder throw won't get his arm from around your neck unless you're stronger than the person attacking you.

Further, that technique from the BJJ vid doesn't apply either, because that technique only worked from attacking the structure of the assailant first and THEN controlling the wrist and beginning the counter. You grabbing his wrist doesn't effect his structure, you're just grabbing the wrist from a very inferior position.

This;

Doesn't work in either scenario.

One of the things I don't like about TMA is the mindset of when someone does "A then I do B" students get stuck on that and they wait forever for that one attack. The way I train and see techniques is similar to When A then do B. Wnen C then do B, When F then do B. If you get stuck on A then you'll be waiting for a long time for that to happen.

In this case, A = someone walking up to you with the extended arm. that you say would never happen. For me and my experience, A has never happened. So, When A then do B, is not realistic to me. However. When C (someone trying to grab me from behind) has happened more than twice and many times that gives me the opportunity to do B (twist arm)

Someone grabbing you from behind is a completely different situation than someone coming in from your front, and requires an entirely different response. I'm very interested to see how you respond to my query above, because what you're saying now doesn't make sense.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If your assailant has his arm wrapped around your neck, how are you going to remove his grip around your neck and extend his arm straight into the air?

You pull down on one arm using both hands and slip under / turn under the arm that you have just pulled down. This causes the arm to extend. It's the same thing the BJJ practitioner did in the video that I've shown. But you have to do it as soon as you feel that arm coming around one they lock the grab around your neck then you'll have to use a different method.

Notice how he addresses the grab before it locks. When grappling, I address the grab as soon as I know that my opponent will grab me.