Creating new styles/forms/techniques

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Don Roley
Of course, I should point out that there are different levels of ability in terms of using techniques, being able to teach those techniques and being qualified enough to create new techniques. In the case of this thread we are talking about the last case, the case that require the most skill of the subject.

And the problem with creating something new now rather than muddling along with the old system is that people keep re-inventing the wheel. That is, if they even get that far. All too often, people who start their own styles have only a very superficial knowledge of the subject matter. If they stayed in one system, they may find that the answers were staring them in the face all along. It is amazing how many "new discoveries" can be found in the writings of the ancients. I am talking about things like Ichi- no tachi, Sen- no- sen and Kyojitsu tenkanho. These concepts and ideas are ancient, yet they have been lost by people who only gain a very limited breadth of knowledge of the subject before they run off and "improve" something. I honestly believe that if we spent more time trying to learn what the old guys did, we would have less reason to create new things. I think it was Bismark who said that a fool tries to learn from his mistakes, while a wise man tries to learn from other people's mistakes.

Wrong! SWEEPER was totally right.

Your quote "If they stayed in one system, they may find that the answers were staring them in the face all along." is a lifelong journey and in the end we still know that MOST ARTS are not complete and that there are MUCH FASTER ways of doing things in this day and age!

If you belong to the slow methodology, thats fine FOR YOU!

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by akja
Wrong! SWEEPER was totally right.

Always nice to know you are open to different opinions... It seems to me, and this isn't aimed just at AKJA, that non-traditional MAists cling just as strongly to their dogma as traditionalists do... Which is amusing to me, since many non-traditionalists espouse the oft quoted "empty your cup" phrase popularized by Brucie! Lots of overflowing cups going around it seems... :shrug:

Your quote "If they stayed in one system, they may find that the answers were staring them in the face all along." is a lifelong journey and in the end we still know that MOST ARTS are not complete and that there are MUCH FASTER ways of doing things in this day and age!

For those who want self-defense RIGHT NOW, they should go and buy a gun. Way more lethal than any kick, punch or throw, is far less expensive in the long run, far easier to put into use effectively, and simply displaying the gun will end most fights immediately (unlike striking a MA pose and issuing a "kiai," which could very likely draw more attention, and more friends of the bad guy, making your odds of success much lower than they had been previously).

Martial arts (note the second word in that phrase) are a lifelong journey. But I think too many people interpret that too narrowly, thinking that you must study only one art for your entire life. If you look at the samurai (who really did apply their arts on the battlefield, unlike the karate teacher who just opened his own school in the minimall teaching his made up style), they studied widely - sword arts, bow arts, horsemanship, siege warfare, strategy and tactics, spear arts, empty handed combat, etc. If you look at classical karate, "real" kung fu (as opposed to the 7 million modern wu shu inspired flowery, jumpy, posing arts sold so often today), and similar arts from other cultures, you will see that they did address all ranges of fighting to one degree or another based on the experiences of those people who had formulated the style (out of their combat experiences) in the first place.

The only arts you waste time studying for a lifetime are the arts that are intended for tournament competition, the arts created by 22 year old 7th dans, the arts that are nothing more than poorly and incompletely learned renamed and repackaged minimall karate and TKD, and the arts you fail to supplement with other experience and training...

I do Yiliquan. Yiliquan is the art I will study for the rest of my life. Yiliquan has strikes, kicks, sweeps, throws, joint locks, chokes, weapons defenses, weapon use, grappling and some ground fighting. I have studied Modern Arnis, Aikido, and RyuTe Karate (very briefly). Not because I was "supplementing," mind you, but because I was either interested in learning those arts just to learn them, or because they provided me with a perception of my Yiliquan that I hadn't been able to see previously! I will still be studying Yili the rest of my life, and I may still never understand it all...

Which brings me to the

there are MUCH FASTER ways of doing things in this day and age!

portion of your comment...

We may be able to learn things faster than previously (education and language skills are wonderful things; more information is available than previously thanks to technology and research), but the speed at which understanding is gained has not changed at all... That just takes time, and in some cases, it can be done in only one lifetime - and in that case it is still pretty fast!

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
Why base your forms' movements on the movements of animals? Why not base them on the movements of people?

Admittedly, I practice Xingyi's 12 Shape/Animal form. However, the form doesn't mimic the movements of these animals. Rather, it tries to represent the feelings that the animal represents, as well as tactics the animal uses in fighting/hunting (e.g. tigers attack prey from behind, so the Tiger Shape strikes from a sidewards position to the target).

Maybe that is what you meant... But folks that try to mimic the actual movements of animals forget that they lack the structural characteristics that make those animals capable of those movements (tigers don't have collarbones, making their inward raking movement stronger than ours, not to mention the claws, fangs and several hundred extra pounds of body weight!).

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

Yiliquan1,

What you have said it very true and often misunderstood by people that hear the term “animal forms”.
This term ultimately takes into consideration the “personality” that the animal has or some distinctive “attitude”.
One must understand the body mechanics of humans to beat humans………..there is no two ways around this.
Humans all have the same muscles, bones and so on in the same place and therefore all have “basically” the same weaknesses.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
Always nice to know you are open to different opinions... It seems to me, and this isn't aimed just at AKJA, that non-traditional MAists cling just as strongly to their dogma as traditionalists do... Which is amusing to me, since many non-traditionalists espouse the oft quoted "empty your cup" phrase popularized by Brucie! Lots of overflowing cups going around it seems... :shrug:



For those who want self-defense RIGHT NOW, they should go and buy a gun. Way more lethal than any kick, punch or throw, is far less expensive in the long run, far easier to put into use effectively, and simply displaying the gun will end most fights immediately (unlike striking a MA pose and issuing a "kiai," which could very likely draw more attention, and more friends of the bad guy, making your odds of success much lower than they had been previously).

Martial arts (note the second word in that phrase) are a lifelong journey. But I think too many people interpret that too narrowly, thinking that you must study only one art for your entire life. If you look at the samurai (who really did apply their arts on the battlefield, unlike the karate teacher who just opened his own school in the minimall teaching his made up style), they studied widely - sword arts, bow arts, horsemanship, siege warfare, strategy and tactics, spear arts, empty handed combat, etc. If you look at classical karate, "real" kung fu (as opposed to the 7 million modern wu shu inspired flowery, jumpy, posing arts sold so often today), and similar arts from other cultures, you will see that they did address all ranges of fighting to one degree or another based on the experiences of those people who had formulated the style (out of their combat experiences) in the first place.

The only arts you waste time studying for a lifetime are the arts that are intended for tournament competition, the arts created by 22 year old 7th dans, the arts that are nothing more than poorly and incompletely learned renamed and repackaged minimall karate and TKD, and the arts you fail to supplement with other experience and training...

I do Yiliquan. Yiliquan is the art I will study for the rest of my life. Yiliquan has strikes, kicks, sweeps, throws, joint locks, chokes, weapons defenses, weapon use, grappling and some ground fighting. I have studied Modern Arnis, Aikido, and RyuTe Karate (very briefly). Not because I was "supplementing," mind you, but because I was either interested in learning those arts just to learn them, or because they provided me with a perception of my Yiliquan that I hadn't been able to see previously! I will still be studying Yili the rest of my life, and I may still never understand it all...

Which brings me to the

portion of your comment...

We may be able to learn things faster than previously (education and language skills are wonderful things; more information is available than previously thanks to technology and research), but the speed at which understanding is gained has not changed at all... That just takes time, and in some cases, it can be done in only one lifetime - and in that case it is still pretty fast!

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

Actually what you stated would fall in line for the most part with my personal beliefs. Theres nothing wrong in the least bit in training in a system for your whole life. We all should have an art that we favor.

The response to Don was meant to mean that we don't have to wait that lifetime to achieve faster results if thats what we choose.

He was putting it back to the issue "of not spending enough time in one system."

For self defense or overall "streetfighting awareness" it can be done faster. That does not make them an expert at anything, just a bit safer in the overall sceme of things.

The journey that each and everyone of us takes is our own and will take us in possibly differant directions and will take those of us that are true a lifetime.
:asian:

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by akja
Wrong! SWEEPER was totally right.

Your quote "If they stayed in one system, they may find that the answers were staring them in the face all along." is a lifelong journey and in the end we still know that MOST ARTS are not complete and that there are MUCH FASTER ways of doing things in this day and age!

If you belong to the slow methodology, thats fine FOR YOU!

I find that most people that are in a “rush” to learn martial arts never become good at them for several reasons.

One reason is your body must be trained to respond to certain stimuli and that can only be done with time.
Take something common to most arts like blocking a punch…………the basics can be taught in a short time………accomplishing the feat takes lots of practice.

The second reason is people that are in a “rush” are normally impatient and that slows the quality of their skill as well.

I can’t train someone from scratch to run a marathon in a short time but I can help them develop the skills they will need to accomplish such a goal.

Teaching your body a martial art takes time………plain and simple.

 

[A.R.K.]

I find that most people that are in a “rush” to learn martial arts never become good at them for several reasons.

Actually I would agree with this. However, we need to differentiate between learning to defend oneself and a martial ART.

A martial ART is filled with things like kata's and pre-arranged sparring drills etc. These aren't bad things at all. But they take time to learn and master. They can assist in actual combat...but are NOT necessary to be successful in actual combat.

For example a boxer can be quite successful in and out of the ring. What does a boxer concentrate on in training? Footwork, and a few types of punches. He works on timing, conditioning, speed and strength.

One can learn to successfully defend themselves in a short amount of time. With periodic training to keep it fresh. It doesn't take years! Does this mean the individual can win a UFC or defeat a biker gang single-handedly? No, of course not. But can they protect themselves from a mugger, rapist, disorderly drunk? Sure they can.

Most of winning is based on commitment, timing, decisivness and HEART. Not technique!

I remember Tony Blauer talking to an Aikido master one day at a seminar. The Master was pissed off at Tony's teaching people to respond brutally and decisively so quickly. He stated "It takes me 10-20 years to teach someone the complete art of Aikido so they can defeat someone", Tony's simple reply was 'please don't put your limitations on me'.

Learning to fight is not difficult or complicated. Learning to avoid the fight can be. And learning an ART definately is.

:asian:

 

[sweeper]

yeah, what I as getting at is that in alot of cases the student sn't realy looking for a "complete" art, they want something else, and going down that path in a way is a wrong turn.. also alot of people learn diffrent, and good teachers are few and far between, it's posable a person knows enough to teach people a martial art yet does not know how to teach. Students in schools that are not optimal to what they want are going to look for it elsewhere, now I know some people just "create" their own art for the ego trip, but I'm sure there are plenty of other people who want something but just don't know where to look or perhaps they don't know exactly what they want.

 

[sweeper]

BTW, I know it's a little off topic but how many people have actualy met a mean biker gang? All the bikers I have known/met were pritty nice to me

 

[chufeng]

If your goal is to be a bad-*** street fighter...then Karate or Chuan Fa are not the vehicle. Why? Because they teach much more than fighting skills...they ultimately teach you how not to fight...

If I have someone who comes to me and says that he wants to learn "kung fu" for self-defense...I tell him, he is wasting his time...buy a gun.

If you want to learn how to be a bad-*** street fighter...go into a bar, find the biggest dude there and spit in his beer...when you get out of the hospital, do it again, and again, until you finally get it...

Or go to a school that teaches "street fighting 101," whatever that is...there sure ain't no rules in a street fight, so I would wonder how to codify a particular technique...

I am quite content with the old slow method that I learned...

:asian:
chufeng

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by akja
Wrong! SWEEPER was totally right.

Your quote "If they stayed in one system, they may find that the answers were staring them in the face all along." is a lifelong journey and in the end we still know that MOST ARTS are not complete and that there are MUCH FASTER ways of doing things in this day and age!

If you belong to the slow methodology, thats fine FOR YOU!

First off, I don't think that you ever really defined what complete was. A complete art, yeah, okay, what does it mean? Just because an art focuses more on grappling than locking, more striking than throws, more takedowns then groundfighting, does it make it incomplete?

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
Always nice to know you are open to different opinions... It seems to me, and this isn't aimed just at AKJA, that non-traditional MAists cling just as strongly to their dogma as traditionalists do... Which is amusing to me, since many non-traditionalists espouse the oft quoted "empty your cup" phrase popularized by Brucie! Lots of overflowing cups going around it seems... :shrug:



For those who want self-defense RIGHT NOW, they should go and buy a gun. Way more lethal than any kick, punch or throw, is far less expensive in the long run, far easier to put into use effectively, and simply displaying the gun will end most fights immediately (unlike striking a MA pose and issuing a "kiai," which could very likely draw more attention, and more friends of the bad guy, making your odds of success much lower than they had been previously).

Martial arts (note the second word in that phrase) are a lifelong journey. But I think too many people interpret that too narrowly, thinking that you must study only one art for your entire life. If you look at the samurai (who really did apply their arts on the battlefield, unlike the karate teacher who just opened his own school in the minimall teaching his made up style), they studied widely - sword arts, bow arts, horsemanship, siege warfare, strategy and tactics, spear arts, empty handed combat, etc. If you look at classical karate, "real" kung fu (as opposed to the 7 million modern wu shu inspired flowery, jumpy, posing arts sold so often today), and similar arts from other cultures, you will see that they did address all ranges of fighting to one degree or another based on the experiences of those people who had formulated the style (out of their combat experiences) in the first place.

The only arts you waste time studying for a lifetime are the arts that are intended for tournament competition, the arts created by 22 year old 7th dans, the arts that are nothing more than poorly and incompletely learned renamed and repackaged minimall karate and TKD, and the arts you fail to supplement with other experience and training...

I do Yiliquan. Yiliquan is the art I will study for the rest of my life. Yiliquan has strikes, kicks, sweeps, throws, joint locks, chokes, weapons defenses, weapon use, grappling and some ground fighting. I have studied Modern Arnis, Aikido, and RyuTe Karate (very briefly). Not because I was "supplementing," mind you, but because I was either interested in learning those arts just to learn them, or because they provided me with a perception of my Yiliquan that I hadn't been able to see previously! I will still be studying Yili the rest of my life, and I may still never understand it all...

Which brings me to the

portion of your comment...

We may be able to learn things faster than previously (education and language skills are wonderful things; more information is available than previously thanks to technology and research), but the speed at which understanding is gained has not changed at all... That just takes time, and in some cases, it can be done in only one lifetime - and in that case it is still pretty fast!

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

Good post!

One thing I have observed is that each person who has been studying for quite some time, all of a sudden, it all clicks. It happens in almost anything you do. Some, the clicking is more gradual so one doesn't really notice it. For me, I remember wrestling was a fast "click", while TKD and boxing was more of a practice and "hey, I've come along".

Another thing I've noticed is that the age of a person's prime is different depending on principles. For a lot of the hard striking arts like boxing, TKD, muay thai, etc., you don't see a lot of old guys participating as much as they used to. They can still kick everyone's behind, but they just don't have anything left to say, compete in a large tournament.

In internal arts, you see that a lot of the more mature, experienced people can still chug along, and take people on who are younger, physically more powerful and faster, etc.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by akja
Actually what you stated would fall in line for the most part with my personal beliefs. Theres nothing wrong in the least bit in training in a system for your whole life. We all should have an art that we favor.

The response to Don was meant to mean that we don't have to wait that lifetime to achieve faster results if thats what we choose.

He was putting it back to the issue "of not spending enough time in one system."

For self defense or overall "streetfighting awareness" it can be done faster. That does not make them an expert at anything, just a bit safer in the overall sceme of things.

The journey that each and everyone of us takes is our own and will take us in possibly differant directions and will take those of us that are true a lifetime.
:asian:

I agree with you there.

You can learn how to defend yourself on the street with a simple MMA. Learn the basics of striking, grappling, and groundfighting. You learn to be an all-around fighter.

However, for long-range purposes, sticking to what you're best at is IMO, much more effecient, as you can then understand what the concept of unity really means. You know yourself better, you understand what your body can do, you learn to "think", and IMO, is better for defending yourself against more experienced fighters.

But someone who's looking to be street-ready in a few years or so should be taking MMA. One who's looking for a long and arduous task shouldn't be sticking to such general aspects. Now I'm not saying TMA can't get you street-ready in a couple of years or that MMA is a "quick fix", anyone who's been training under TMA or MMA understands how much dedication is necessary. But in general, you can take a short path, or a long path of understanding.

Regardless of whether you're in TMA or MMA, you still need to be an all-around fighter, and be able to defend yourself under all ranges and any condition (rainy grass, rainy cement, snow, when wearing heavy clothing, in a crowded room, etc.).

 

[Matt Stone]

Self-defense can be learned in a weekend. Comprehensive self-defense could be learned over several weekends. Becoming proficient at what you just learned in less than a month could take maybe only 6 months to a year with repeated practice.

Getting to the point where you are the eye of the storm while assailed on all sides by various ruffians and thugs? Ain't happenin' anytime soon, much less "faster" than it took someone 100 years ago...

I have only been training since 1986. Not very long by some standards, quite a while by others. I am only now getting to the point that, intellectually, I don't see much of a difference between techniques... kicks, punches, all the same. Joint locks, throws, all the same. Step forward, step backward, all the same.

Getting to the point where I can actually use this is still some time off yet... Just ask Chufeng (who beat me like a b*tch last weekend! ).

But while you can learn a defense against a bear hug, or how to use your keys as a weapon, or how to defend against the mount, in only a weekend, "mastering" those things will take only maybe a lifetime...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
Self-defense can be learned in a weekend. Comprehensive self-defense could be learned over several weekends. Becoming proficient at what you just learned in less than a month could take maybe only 6 months to a year with repeated practice.

Getting to the point where you are the eye of the storm while assailed on all sides by various ruffians and thugs? Ain't happenin' anytime soon, much less "faster" than it took someone 100 years ago...

I have only been training since 1986. Not very long by some standards, quite a while by others. I am only now getting to the point that, intellectually, I don't see much of a difference between techniques... kicks, punches, all the same. Joint locks, throws, all the same. Step forward, step backward, all the same.

Getting to the point where I can actually use this is still some time off yet... Just ask Chufeng (who beat me like a b*tch last weekend! ).

But while you can learn a defense against a bear hug, or how to use your keys as a weapon, or how to defend against the mount, in only a weekend, "mastering" those things will take only maybe a lifetime...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

Did Chufeng give you a CAPITOL HILL ***** SLAP?

 

[A.R.K.]

And just to clarify things...

My biker comment was just a generic example. Not intended to put a shadow of wrong-doing on that passion for HOGS .

In fact my pastor is a biker at age 60 and one awesome evangelist!

:asian:

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by akja
Did Chufeng give you a CAPITOL HILL ***** SLAP?

I have been the recipient of the famed CHBS, however he reserves that for special guests and very special treatment for me... I am a little odd in the melon - RyuShiKan could verify that, but he isn't here anymore.

I get hit. I writhe in pain. I get back up. I get hit again. I writhe in pain again. I get back up again. Rinse. Repeat. I get knocked down, I get back up (regardless of the wisdom of that decision).

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
.....I have only been training since 1986. Not very long by some standards, quite a while by others. I am only now getting to the point that, intellectually, I don't see much of a difference between techniques... kicks, punches, all the same. Joint locks, throws, all the same. Step forward, step backward, all the same.

Getting to the point where I can actually use this is still some time off yet...

Please do not take this as a personal swipe. However, I think it is important to point out that many people I know, have been able to reach the stage where they master the perspective of "a punch is just a punch, a kick is just a kick", after a relatively few years of training. Granted, these are dedicated and intelligent individuals who live and breath martial arts. I do not wish to see people mistaken that decades of dedicated training is the prerequisite to such perspective.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by KennethKu
Please do not take this as a personal swipe. However, I think it is important to point out that many people I know, have been able to reach the stage where they master the perspective of "a punch is just a punch, a kick is just a kick", after a relatively few years of training. Granted, these are dedicated and intelligent individuals who live and breath martial arts. I do not wish to see people mistaken that decades of dedicated training is the prerequisite to such perspective.

Another good post!:asian:

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by KennethKu
Please do not take this as a personal swipe.

I won't if you won't...

However, I think it is important to point out that many people I know, have been able to reach the stage where they master the perspective of "a punch is just a punch, a kick is just a kick", after a relatively few years of training.

Except that wasn't what I was talking about... A punch (lunging, jab, reverse), a backfist (horizontal, forward), a knifehand (circular, horizontal), etc... All the same, really... No difference in their application. Kicks the same way.

Granted, these are dedicated and intelligent individuals who live and breath martial arts. I do not wish to see people mistaken that decades of dedicated training is the prerequisite to such perspective.

Granted there are dedicated and intelligent individuals who, after a short time training, reach a level of understanding. But I don't wish to see people mistaken that that is either a) possible for every person, or b) possible with only a short time in training... Typically, long term training is a prerequisite for such a perspective and understanding.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
I won't if you won't...

None what so ever. Differences in opinions between reasonable adults are expected, and never to be taken personally.

Except that wasn't what I was talking about... A punch (lunging, jab, reverse), a backfist (horizontal, forward), a knifehand (circular, horizontal), etc... All the same, really... No difference in their application. Kicks the same way.

May I ask "same" as in terms of what? It would be helpful if the parameters are defined.

Granted there are dedicated and intelligent individuals who, after a short time training, reach a level of understanding. But I don't wish to see people mistaken that that is either a) possible for every person, or b) possible with only a short time in training... Typically, long term training is a prerequisite for such a perspective and understanding.

Generally true. If we know what "level of understanding" you are referring to, we can avoid talking pass each other. If you were referring to understanding Qi power and "harmony between heavan and earth and men" eastern philosophy as resonated in Asian MA, then we have not been on the same page.