Cost of testing

[Tony Dismukes]

I think your experience is the exception, not the rule. I could well be wrong, but I have the impression that the vast majority of schools do charge for testing. My own experience is exactly the opposite of yours. I've never trained in a school that didn't charge for testing.

I think a lot depends on the art. In BJJ, most schools do not charge for promotions (although some do). My impression is that most TKD schools do charge for promotions.

Probably because it's a commercial school, and they have bills to pay.

I have no problem with any school charging what they need in order to stay open (or turn a profit, for commercial schools). I just prefer that the costs be included within the monthly membership fee. Firstly, because I don't like hidden fees and I think a consistent monthly charge is easier to budget for (as opposed to the situation the OP finds himself in where he has to come up with $600+ all at once). Secondly, because I think using promotions as a profit center creates perverse incentives. The instructor has a financial interest in promoting students as quickly as possible, while the student has a financial interest in not being promoted. Both of these incentives run counter to the idea that rank should be a reasonably accurate acknowledgment of a practitioners ability/knowledge/skill/accomplishment within a given art.

That said, if promotion requires a special testing session outside of normal class hours, I don't object to a modest extra fee to cover the instructor's time.

Unless you're planning to open a school and teach, then promoting probably isn't necessary. If the money is a concern, don't test.

Depends on the school. Where I teach and train, this would be an accurate assessment. However I understand that many schools determine what material is taught based on the students rank. If the student never promotes, then they don't get to learn the entire art.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

That depends on the teaching style. At our school, you learn the basic motion as a white belt, and that's often enough to drive people crazy. In a lot of cases, we don't give all the details (because it's too much to learn every detail of a roundhouse kick on your first session), and in some cases we actually teach the technique wrong at the start to get the kids used to following directions. What I mean by this is we teach a punch as just moving your arm, no pivoting on your rear foot or turning of your body, because the 4-5 year olds think that moving your foot means running forward and end up punching the person lined up in front of them.

In fact, I'll stand next to some of those kids and I'll do the technique as we expect them to do it - a punch with all arm movement. The reason is that at this point, getting them to follow directions is more important than the technique itself.

At my school, black belts have cleaned up their beginning techniques and most of the advanced techniques, but there is generally a pretty clear difference between our 1st degree black belts and our 2nd degree black belts. Our 3rd degree black belts are usually another big step up...for the month they have it before going off to college. (I will probably be the first person to stick around after getting my 3rd Dan since I started going to this school 5 years ago, as all the others have gone to college out of town shortly after).

As I was reading this, I was picturing a huge time gap between 1st/2nd/3rd from how you were saying it, up until the point "before going off to college". It's weird for me to picture 17 year olds as 3rd degree black belts, and I'm curious to see how what I picture when I think of 3rd dan would compare to those students.

This isn't meant as a knock, I'm just always curious about these things, since styles have such different grading standards for those belts.

 

[skribs]

As I was reading this, I was picturing a huge time gap between 1st/2nd/3rd from how you were saying it, up until the point "before going off to college". It's weird for me to picture 17 year olds as 3rd degree black belts, and I'm curious to see how what I picture when I think of 3rd dan would compare to those students.

This isn't meant as a knock, I'm just always curious about these things, since styles have such different grading standards for those belts.

They usually started when they were really little, around 4-5 years old. Figure a 5 year old starts, gets their first degree around 10 or 11, gets their 2nd degree around 13 or 14, works really hard to get their 3rd degree when they're 17 or 18 and then goes off to college.

I understand the trepidation people have regarding young black belts, but these are kids who have spent half, maybe even three-quarters of their lives doing Taekwondo.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I missed that. So it is a case of no retrospective applications, you have to basically double up on the time (and continue to pay monthly I presume).



That's not necessarily bad for that bit - 75 (say) for the actual cert, plus (again, say) ~50 for the hour or so admin time (after currency conversion, that's about what I charge for work). I wouldn't disagree with that.


I might disagree with the actual test fee though...

I'm not sure why the 75 for the certificate, though. The 50 for admin time (including system upkeep to maintain records long-term) seems reasonable.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This is exactly why I've never cared for ranks. Even in legit schools belts are just a way for instructors to Rip off people and get a large sum of cash every 6 or so months. Let's be real a belt doesn't cost much to buy a certificate doesn't cost much to print so there's really no need for these ridiculous prices. I was asked before why I refused to test for black belt for years this is one of the reasons I knew the price would be over £100 and I'm not willing to pay that money for a belt simple as that. I've never been a rich guy and couldn't justify that money especially when it's a black belt and there's not much new material to learn after so my attitude was who cares

This statement seems heavily biased, HH. In MANY schools, there's really no way they are making money on their testing. Most I've seen probably lose a few bucks on each promotion (with belt cost, certificates, time for record-keeping, etc.).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The whole Martial world has gone fricken' crazy.

Most of us started that way.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think your experience is the exception, not the rule. I could well be wrong, but I have the impression that the vast majority of schools do charge for testing. My own experience is exactly the opposite of yours. I've never trained in a school that didn't charge for testing.

My (much more limited) experience suggests it's something about evenly split. Some schools I know once didn't charge for tests started doing so. I think it has become a price-shopping issue. If several schools in the area use significant testing fees to keep monthly prices down, their fees will seem lower to folks asking about cost. If that costs another school enough market (especially a commercial school) they'll consider testing fees the next time they need to raise fees to cover increasing costs.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Tangential thought that this gave me...I've had a black belt in one style for 8(ish?) years, and in another style for 3 years. Both instances I did not get the black belt by choice...in one school they just gave it to me one day, and in the other I came to class and was informed that me and the other person were testing for rank and teaching certificates. I don't know a lick of post-black belt material. I've always figured that there's enough pre-black belt material in any style I've practiced to keep me busy for a very long time.

I eliminated the concept of post-black material in my curriculum (there never was much reserved for post-black in NGA, traditionally). Should someone ever complete my curriculum, they'll have plenty to keep working on and fiddling with to keep life interesting without needing entirely new material. If they want something new, it's time for cross-training or a new art.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

They usually started when they were really little, around 4-5 years old. Figure a 5 year old starts, gets their first degree around 10 or 11, gets their 2nd degree around 13 or 14, works really hard to get their 3rd degree when they're 17 or 18 and then goes off to college.

I understand the trepidation people have regarding young black belts, but these are kids who have spent half, maybe even three-quarters of their lives doing Taekwondo.

Just a different experience - in the NGAA, it's usually the 1st they are sprinting for before college (can't get it before 16, and that's exceedingly rare).

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

They usually started when they were really little, around 4-5 years old. Figure a 5 year old starts, gets their first degree around 10 or 11, gets their 2nd degree around 13 or 14, works really hard to get their 3rd degree when they're 17 or 18 and then goes off to college.

I understand the trepidation people have regarding young black belts, but these are kids who have spent half, maybe even three-quarters of their lives doing Taekwondo.

I don't have any trepidation about it, it doesn't impact me how old someone is who gets their black belt. My comparison is that I started around 4 years old, by 10/11 I was maybe halfway through the curriculum, by 14 I was just before brown belts (there are 3 classes of brown belt, so 4th gyup I guess in TKD terms), and got my black belt at 17. So I spent 14 out of my 17 years practicing before getting a black belt.

But with those ages, it makes a lot of sense that there is a serious difference between 1st second and third degree black belts...in general there's a difference between the abilities of a 10 year old, 13 year old and 17 year old. Again, not judging, or saying it's wrong, just different.

Side question: How many return after college/come back for the summers?

 

[pdg]

I'm not sure why the 75 for the certificate, though. The 50 for admin time (including system upkeep to maintain records long-term) seems reasonable.

The certificate fee (updated by watergal) is what the kkw charge for the cert and central database entry/admin.

Anything over that is charged by the instructor/examiner/country board for their part in the process (possibly including local records).

The multiple hundred test fee is (apparently) just to have someone watch you for a bit and decide what boxes need ticking...

 

[skribs]

I don't have any trepidation about it, it doesn't impact me how old someone is who gets their black belt. My comparison is that I started around 4 years old, by 10/11 I was maybe halfway through the curriculum, by 14 I was just before brown belts (there are 3 classes of brown belt, so 4th gyup I guess in TKD terms), and got my black belt at 17. So I spent 14 out of my 17 years practicing before getting a black belt.

But with those ages, it makes a lot of sense that there is a serious difference between 1st second and third degree black belts...in general there's a difference between the abilities of a 10 year old, 13 year old and 17 year old. Again, not judging, or saying it's wrong, just different.

Side question: How many return after college/come back for the summers?

Well, we also have 14 and 17 year old first degrees, and 17 year old second degrees, and there's a clear difference between students of the same age who are first, second, and third degree.

I think we've had 3 promoted to 3rd Dan during my time here. One went to ROTC and we haven't seen him since. One went to college about 50 miles away, and she's usually back for summer. The other is the Master's son, and we see him occasionally, but not as a regular member anymore.

We'll have to see about returning from after college, since the two are still at college, and the third will start soon.

We do have another guy who got his KKW 3rd Dan and ATA 4th Dan, but left before I started at this school. He's moved back to the area and come back to practice. We don't certify with ATA anymore, though.

 

[WaterGal]

I'm not sure why the 75 for the certificate, though. The 50 for admin time (including system upkeep to maintain records long-term) seems reasonable.

Kukkiwon sets the certificate fee. That's how they pay their bills as an organization, I think (unlike some other martial arts organizations, which charge periodic membership dues to the school or individual students). It's $90 + a small bank fee for 1st dan.

 

[WaterGal]

WaterGal, can I ask how much you charge for tests? Also, can you give me some perspective on why the prices are set where they are?

We charge $400 for 1st dan, $500 for 2nd, and $600 for 3rd. That includes the KKW certificate in a nice display, an embroidered belt, and a weapon (we do some weapons training at black belt), and extra training to help prepare for the test. We do the test outside of normal operating hours, and we try to have all the instructors there and get some decent photos and videos, and we buy a big stack of boards for students to break. It takes us some time to set up before the test, and clean up afterwards, and to do the paperwork and all that. We do make some profit off of doing the test, too, though not a huge amount.

Some schools see the test as a big money-maker, maybe using it to be able to charge less for tuition. Some schools charge more and give you more stuff for your money (a bunch of private training, belt displays, other stuff like that), other schools charge less and give you less stuff to keep the price more affordable. I try not to be too critical of other schools, because a simple dollar figure often doesn't tell the whole story. I think the important thing is that you get something of value for what you pay.

 

[Dirty Dog]

We charge $400 for 1st dan, $500 for 2nd, and $600 for 3rd.

These are very much the same fees we charge for KKW certification.

MDK certification is $320 for 1st Dan, $360 for 2nd, $390 for 3rd, $440 for 4th, $550 for 5th, $670 for 6th. 7th Dan (which is what we classify as Grandmaster) and up is based on contributions to the art, and there is no fee.

KKW certification is $420 for 1st, $490 for 2nd, $540 for 3rd, $640 for 4th, etc.

The single biggest difference is that there are no training fees after you reach 1st Dan. The Y charges $40/month for the program. Dan holders are listed as volunteer instructors and pay nothing. No big deal, really, since we expect every student to help those who are less advanced. The only real difference is that a Dan holder might be asked to cover an entire class. For example, I generally work Sun-Mon-Tues in the ER. Because bills. So I cannot teach the Tuesday classes. If Master Valdez were also unavailable for some reason, the most senior Dan holder available would cover the class.
Which makes Dan tests a pretty good bargain, to my way of thinking.