CONTROVERSY: Free Martial Arts!!!

[Shadowstar MMA]

First off, welcome to Martial Talk. I'm a bit late to this thread, but I just spent some time reading thru the posts, so I thought I'd comment.

I think we can look at this a few different ways. There are people that teach for free, there are people that teach quality material for a cost, and there are those who're running McDojos, handing out fries and a coke with the belts, and who're more concerned with the $$$ than the quality of the students. IMO, and I may be wrong, but it seems to me that you're hinting that anyone who charges is doing it for the wrong reasons. If that is the case, then I must disagree with you. I say this, because I know many martial artists, who charge, do not run a Mcdojo, teach quality, effective material and don't hand out belts.

Now, looking at your site, I see a few pics, with kids in them. Am I safe to assume that you primarily teach kids? Personally, I think its great to see kids in the arts, because it gives them a positive activity, hopefully keeps them off the streets, away from bad influences, and gets them off the couch.

I know a few people who dont have a commercial school. Its the backyard, garage, park, etc. groups, and I will say that I have received some great training and got some fantastic workouts in. No attitudes, no worries of being sued, just some good ol' hard workouts.

One thing that we need to remember, is that no matter how hard we try or how hard we want to, we will not be able to police the martial arts world. There will be great teachers, average ones, and crappy ones. What we can do, is strive to be the best that we can and offer quality material. But as I said above, just because someone charges money for lessons, does not mean that they're out for only themselves.

Mike

Once again, I'm not in any way saying that charging for classes is wrong.

 

[Shadowstar MMA]

I hope you don't accept just anyone.
Sean

No, I don't just accept anyone. Even though the site says "open for enrollment", one of the other students (or in the case of a child's friend" the parents must "vouch" for them. I turn away people who just walk up and say: "I want to join." They can stand (or sit) and watch, but they cannot participate.

 

[MJS]

Once again, I'm not in any way saying that charging for classes is wrong.

And thanks for the clarification. I was just going on my initial impression of prior posts.

 

[shesulsa]

Before we condemn people for making a living at martial arts I'd like to make a couple of points:

1. Have you priced commercial-retail real estate lately? Having been in property management for a firm that handled the investments for a retirement fund, I can say we charged our lessees an initial setup fee, an annual renewal fee, common area maintenance and a lovely thing we call Percentage Rent. Percentage Rent is calculated based on a market rate percentage of sales. The lease agreement states the minimum amount of rent to be paid monthly is "X" and if percentage "P" of monthly sales is greater than another amount "S" the percentage overage is paid to the landlord. It can get spendy and sometimes ruins whomever tries to be successful.

2. Professional sports players make an absurd amount of cash - not that I agree they should be paid ludicrous sums, but if we're going to glorify sports then ....

3. If you spent nine to ten hours per day teaching, training, molding, shaping, coaching other people successfully then you DO have a job. Should you decide to make it your living, I don't see anything wrong with that, though I think your ultimate goal here is to point out the ripping off of people, which brings me to my next point.

4. McDojo's are the most obvious (to us) scenario where it could be said people are overstepping their bounds by charging fees for substandard instruction. These are people who really only want to make money off their knowledge which is what capitalism is all about. I think we would all be better served if those belt mills would simply SAY what they are doing is providing a progressive sport designed for personal achievement and not sell false promises ... but then who doesn't do that? I think it's a case of buyer beware.

5. Kudos to you for teaching for free. You said your venue is donated which makes it easy, of course. The rest of us pay rent on a space, insurance fees, some of us are bonded and have business licenses so that if someone gets seriously injured and they sue us, we're covered. We have to recover that money somehow if we're not independently wealthy and do not have nonprofit status.

I don't see it as a controversy (though I understand what you're trying to get across) and perhaps if you let this go, you might find personal benefits as well (with all due respect and intended kindness).

Welcome to MT.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

It's my opinion that MA instructors, unless teaching for an organization, should give thier knowledge, not sell it.

You are entitled to your opinion. Though if we look at history teaching was not done for free. Sometimes you had to give a blood oath,work for the teacher in his house,massaging the teacher,cooking,and so on. Payments come in all sorts of shapes and sizes it is an exchange of goods,graditude,commitment. Without the show of some sort of exchange being made the student will not treat it respectfully.

The money doesn't matter in the long run. Charging for classes, not charging, makes no difference in a school's turn-around rate.

I beg to differ. If one person pays $100 you can bet he will show up to class and be a more intuitive student for his payment then say a student who goes for free who will take it for granted and come and pay less attention due to it being free.

I for one started off not charging. As long as some sort of commitment was being made I was fine. I found students would skip days,make excuses for not practicing and so on. When I started to charge $30 a month for twice a week for 1-2hrs about about $8 a week $4 a class is not much but it is a enough to get people to practice and come to class.

I'm speaking ill of organizations that think it's ok to charge outragious fees for "black belt" programs, and have the students pay for "association" fees that don't have an impact on the training that they are actually receiving.

Like all business people can choose to go elsewhere. I myself have seen these types of fee offered and not all of it goes to profit. The larger an organization becomes the more money needed to keep it running. But yes there are organizations that strictly do make a lot of profit but we live in a captalist society so teachers can make a profit if there is a consumer wishing to pay for the service. The consumer has the right to go elsewhere for the service as well.

 

[jks9199]

I'm not sure I understand the problem you have with someone earning a living by teaching martial arts, or even simply charging a fee for instruction.

There's a long history of people making their living as instructors, be they gladiator coaches in ancient Rome, instructors in the service of a daimyo in samurai-era Japan, boxing coaches today in the US, or martial arts businesses. In his biography, I don't recall Funakoshi discussing what he paid his instructors (if at all) or what he charged later... My own style and organization is taught non-commercially -- but instructors can charge enough to help cover the overhead and even put a little in their pockets (if they're really lucky!). But that's our choice...

My only complaint about the martial arts daycare places is that they often skirt the requirements for the day care services they provide by calling themselves "sports programs." I'd be as unhappy about it if the program was football, baseball, or anything else. If the program is going to look and act as a day care service -- it should meet the legal standards for day care services.

Otherwise -- if someone chooses to put the time and effort into running a business teaching a martial art, I've got nothing but respect for them, as long as they're honest. It's not easy and it's not easy to be successful. If they're selling a bill of goods to students or full of crap in some other way, then -- yeah, I've got a problem with it. But there's nothing inherently wrong or evil or immoral about making a living teaching a martial art, in my opinion. A teacher has worked hard to acquire the skills, put in years of sustained effort, and puts in effort outside of class; there's nothing wrong with being rewarded for that.

 

[Shadowstar MMA]

I agree why do not not feel the need to charge? What exactly are you teaching in the way of SD, stranger dander, anti kidnapping,rape prevention?

I don't charge for classes because of 2 reason:
1) I don't have any overhead. The only money that I'm "out" is a couple of hours of overtime a week. I only teach one day a week simply because I can't afford it.
2) Teaching is my way of helping. In today's world, everyone needs something. Whether it be a sport, a vehicle, or success in whatever career they're in. Something. There's that old saying: "You have to stand for something or you'll fall for anything." I'm not trying to be a saint, nor am I trying to save the world. I'm just simply giving back what was given to me.

As for the money, I have a decent job that pays the bills and allows for extra, (when my wife ok's it). So I don't mind donating "me".

As far as what kind of self-defense I teach I can sum it up with a question I ask my students:
Q: What is the most effective form of self-defense?
A: Awareness.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Shotokan Red Dragon Karate
Choi lay fut
Kung Fu San Soo

We have some Kung Fu San Soo people on MT.

Why not just teach Kung Fu San Soo?

Or any of the other styles for free for that matter and not use the MMA label

 

[MJS]

Once again, I'm not in any way saying that charging for classes is wrong.

Quoting this post again due to the fact that after reading a post from another user, a few questions came to mind. Its always nice to read other views, because sometimes it sparks a few things I hadn't thought about. Maybe I'm just reading wrong, and forgive me for doing so, but you said:

"It's my opinion that MA instructors, unless teaching for an organization, should give thier knowledge, not sell it."

So, if you're teaching for an org, its ok to charge, but if you're teaching out of a small school or your garage, then its not ok?

What is it exactly that you're against? The Mcdojos, that care more about the money than the quality of students? If thats the case, then yes, I agree with you on that.

 

[MJS]

As far as what kind of self-defense I teach I can sum it up with a question I ask my students:
Q: What is the most effective form of self-defense?
A: Awareness.

To further expand on the question that Terry had asked....what is your program like? What specifically are you teaching, besides awareness?

 

[shihansmurf]

I didn't know that the martial arts were being held captive.



I don't charge my students at the moment. We are currently training out of my garage and one of the students back yards, so how things work is that as long as I have no out of pocket expenses I don't charge. I like having people to work out with and being able to pass along my art,it is a good arrangement. I have no overhead and my students don't have a great deal of disposable income so it makes it possible for them to train where they otherwise probably wouldn't be able to.

That being said, I don't understand the disdain for commercial martial art schools. Hell, I don't even dislike McDojos to be honest, as long as the student understands what they are getting in to. While I have a low tolerance for what I am willing to pay for instruction costs(to say nothing for contracts, but that is another topic entirely), the way I see it what ever a given person thinks a fair market price happens to be for his knowledge is entirely between him and his students. Caveat Emptor, and all that. Charging what the market will bear doesn't make an instructor a bad person.

Just my view
Mark

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

And just as a personal note, I believe that anyone trying to make Martial Arts a "lucrative" business like some of these associations is WRONG.
I understand that an owner has to keep the doors open. I understand that equipment, rent, utilities and insurance cost money. Beyond this, the money collected is used to line pockets. The bigger the association, the more money.
Greed is something that is becoming more and more of an issue, and in the end, IT'S THE STUDENTS THAT ARE HAVING TO PAY IN MORE THEN ONE WAY!

Students that NEED to learn self-defense in a world that requires it!

you are free to feel whatever you want, that does not make it correct.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with placing value on what you do.
My time is worth a certain amount, I chose whether I want to get paid for my time, or donate my time, or some combination of the two.
Do not kid yourself into thinking you are doing the world a favor with your free service, I seriously doubt you have anywhere near the most efficient and effective style out there.
While I can definitely see someone in your position being able to contribute greatly to your community, it is not the end all be all of what people need. I think if you want to do it great, but don't think you are better then anyone else as your posting tone seems to insinuate.

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

Your last comment is precisely my point.
I'm not here to start a fight. . . maybe I'm projecting myself wrong.
What I'm trying to find out is if there are others who view money and martial arts the same as I do.
As far as making money, everyone needs to. I understand this.
I'm talking about some of these studios that are charging OUTRAGIOUS fees. . . some of them to simply watch!
That's what I consider wrong. Not making money for the purpose of keeping the school doors open and making a place for students to train.

My apologies for coming off rude, but this is really getting under my skin.

Outragious is subjective. Quality of the art, effectiveness of the art, quality and effectiveness of the teacher, and many other factors come into play when it comes to costs attached. Who are you to tell anyone else what they should charge?
The only problem I have with commercial schools, is not the money, but the honesty. I have no problem with schools of varying types as long as they are honest with the students, I despise dishonesty in the commercial martial arts world, and that really has nothing to do with the costs, it has much more to do with the quality of the art, and the reality of the teachers abilities, students abilities, and the arts answers to problems.

 

[Joab]

More power to ya if you want to teach for free, but one of the problems I see with your approach is you only teach once a week. I need at least two classes a week to get anywhere, I'm slow when it comes to martial arts. If you charged, you could devote more time to teaching. And people's schedules vary, so if they can't make it to that one class they are out of luck, a lot of schools that do charge have morning and evening classes to better accomodate varying schedules.

 

[Shadowstar MMA]

I have to disagree, MMA is for competition and it's techniques need to be altered and tweaked for self defence purposes.
Wiki defines it this way:
"Mixed martial arts or MMA is a term for the combat sport in which two competitors attempt to achieve dominance over one another by utilizing three general tactics: striking, finishing holds, and control. The rules allow the combatants to use a variety of martial arts techniques, including punches, kicks, joint-locks, chokes, takedowns and throws"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_martial_arts

If you teach self defence frankly you should call it that not MMA. It's like telling everyone you teach karate when actually it's TKD, you'll have exponents of both annoyed with you because you aren't describing what you do.
I have to say all MMA I know of here is competitive and designed for one thing, the ring or cage, there may be self defence taught, as with us, as a separate subject but we don't call it MMA.

I do describe what I do on the site. As a matter of fact, it explains to anyone visiting the shadowstarmma.com site that we do not go to tournaments or competitions.

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

I like Tez's take on MMA for the most part.
I do have to say that I completely disagree that MMA as a term should be used solely to describe sports martial arts..
I completely believe that its as worded... simply mixed martial arts, and that there can be an academic, sports, or combat model based off it.
It simply needs to incorporate multiple ranges, and martial arts involved with said ranges to create a mixed martial art.
That being said, one has to be honest about what they teach, and needs to be up front about teaching one version or another, and not try to get involved with something theyre not qualified for. I think in this case Shadowstar makes it apparant that they have nothing to do with the sports side of MMA.

 

[Flying Crane]

I think the point that some people are trying to make is this: the term "Mixed Martial Art" and "MMA" are used and recognized by most people who are familiar with the term, to denote a specific type of combat oriented sport competition. To most people, that is what these terms mean and stand for, and to hear the term used immediately conjures up an image of such a sporting competition and the training methods that go along with preparation for such a tournament.

You seem to be using the term differently. It looks to me like you have some level of training in several different arts, and you are teaching a blend of these methods to your students. You are then calling it "Mixed Martial Arts."

The problem is that you are using the term in a way that is inconsistent with how the vast majority of people understand the term to mean. Even tho you are technically correct, you have mixed several martial arts together, it just isn't the same thing that most people understand the term to mean.

So I think the suggestion is that you might want to consider describing your method a little differently, so as to avoid confusion. You might consider describing what you teach as simply a blend of elements from X, Y and Z systems, and drop the MMA terminology.

 

[clfsean]

Shotokan Red Dragon Karate
Choi lay fut
Kung Fu San Soo

Who'd you get your CLF from?

 

[clfsean]

I think the point that some people are trying to make is this: the term "Mixed Martial Art" and "MMA" are used and recognized by most people who are familiar with the term, to denote a specific type of combat oriented sport competition. To most people, that is what these terms mean and stand for, and to hear the term used immediately conjures up an image of such a sporting competition and the training methods that go along with preparation for such a tournament.

You seem to be using the term differently. It looks to me like you have some level of training in several different arts, and you are teaching a blend of these methods to your students. You are then calling it "Mixed Martial Arts."

The problem is that you are using the term in a way that is inconsistent with how the vast majority of people understand the term to mean. Even tho you are technically correct, you have mixed several martial arts together, it just isn't the same thing that most people understand the term to mean.

So I think the suggestion is that you might want to consider describing your method a little differently, so as to avoid confusion. You might consider describing what you teach as simply a blend of elements from X, Y and Z systems, and drop the MMA terminology.

Reference ... wu shu v wu shu... kung fu v kung fu...

 

[Tez3]

I think the point that some people are trying to make is this: the term "Mixed Martial Art" and "MMA" are used and recognized by most people who are familiar with the term, to denote a specific type of combat oriented sport competition. To most people, that is what these terms mean and stand for, and to hear the term used immediately conjures up an image of such a sporting competition and the training methods that go along with preparation for such a tournament.

You seem to be using the term differently. It looks to me like you have some level of training in several different arts, and you are teaching a blend of these methods to your students. You are then calling it "Mixed Martial Arts."

The problem is that you are using the term in a way that is inconsistent with how the vast majority of people understand the term to mean. Even tho you are technically correct, you have mixed several martial arts together, it just isn't the same thing that most people understand the term to mean.

So I think the suggestion is that you might want to consider describing your method a little differently, so as to avoid confusion. You might consider describing what you teach as simply a blend of elements from X, Y and Z systems, and drop the MMA terminology.

Exactly!!
If people in this country went to a club advertising MMA and found it was what is described on the website, they'd be off to Trading Standards as misleading advertising lol!
I agree not everyone who does MMA competes, I don't, I ref instead being too old to compete but whether people compete or not the MMA they train the same as those who do compete.
What is described on the website is not MMA, it is a mixture of the styles you have described.
if people go to a TKD club they expect to train TKD, the same as BJJ, Judo etc they don't expect to train something different which is what you are advertising by calling it MMA. I think you'll do yourself a dis-service too, many people who could be training with you won't because they will think it's an MMA club by the title and not even look at your website.