Conditioning And Stuff

[Cyriacus]

What I mean is, now that that point has been demonstrated, why would we need to upload more vids? What point would they be supporting? Other than entering into a urination contest?

Ah, i see! Youre right, of course.

 

[Grenadier]

Admin's note:

Since there were posts on this thread's topic in another thread, the off-topic posts have now been merged into this one.

-Ronald Shin
-MT Assistant Administrator

 

[miguksaram]

I feel so special, people starting separate threads because they have to talk to me. Even if it was off topic, they still would have to be interested. Now say a bunch of mean things on how that isn't true.

It had nothing to do with you, just the topic. I really would not have cared who started it, but it was no longer relevant to the topic it was originally posted under, so do not feel too special, unless you mean back of the short bus special, then by all means (<-There's your mean thing to grant your wish)

 

[Napitenkah]

Yo, mate.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=rIrWFaDWjw8#t=9s


0:07-0:10.
Im terribly sorry, but my knee did not need to be higher. I did not need to be higher. For all intents and purposes, i just threw a technically sufficient tornado kick.





Why do i get the feeling this is going to be another nocturnal thing.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=rIrWFaDWjw8#t=9s
3:15-3:17.
Haul on the bowline...

Pretty much all of them.
Homeward we are going!


Yeah, this is too easy. I get the feeling youre arguing for the sake of argument.

What, now I am a troll. You started this thread to argue about what you think is wrong.
And I don't mind.
So if you want to bow out, go right ahead.


It is too easy because you can't tell the difference.


Kwonkicker, his lead leg was always high and horizontal before the kick. His torso was vertical. That is a proper tornado kick.


Your leg was was at a steep low angle, and you torso arched backward. That is a narabam kick.


If Gnarlie doesn't know, then there is nothing to say, because I didn't make this up.

 

[Gnarlie]

What, now I am a troll. You started this thread to argue about what you think is wrong.
And I don't mind.
So if you want to bow out, go right ahead.


It is too easy because you can't tell the difference.


Kwonkicker, his lead leg was always high and horizontal before the kick. His torso was vertical. That is a proper tornado kick.


Your leg was was at a steep low angle, and you torso arched backward. That is a narabam kick.


If Gnarlie doesn't know, then there is nothing to say, because I didn't make this up.

Look, it's not that I don't know. It's that I and my significant training, my colleagues and my research over the last decade all disagree with you.

The frame rate in Cyr's video is too low to support any of what you describe. It's enough to confirm that you are wrong about him arching his torso back, if anything he leans forward.

Also Kwonkicker's turn kick technique is pretty shabby from a Taekwondo perspective, especially in terms of the recovery phase. I wouldn't be using him as your gold standard.

What you say about the difference between narabam and tornado is very likely local and specific to your school. Nobody out there on the international circuit makes such a distinction. Like I said, maybe get out of your back yard, there are myriad variations of this one kicking principle.

What's coming across here is that you don't have a lot of experience outside of your club, and you're arguing that what is normal as a naming convention in your club is normal everywhere. That's a very weak starting position for you, especially against people with further reaching and broader experience. Here's the kicker: people do things differently all over the world, and it's all called Taekwondo. The principle of turning before a kick goes by many different names like narabam, tornado, turn, backstep, airborne backstep, bolley, volley, nahli, nahla and more. The principle is the same in all of them. So don't tell me what I don't know, until you've looked out of your back gate.

Edit: troll is a word that you chose. I don't think you are a troll, I just think you're quite wrong on a number of issues.

If, as you claim, you didn't make this up, then where did you get it from? Oh and here's a clue - if your answer cites a single source, there's your problem.

Gnarlie

 

[Napitenkah]

Look, it's not that I don't know. It's that I and my significant training, my colleagues and my research over the last decade all disagree with you.

The frame rate in Cyr's video is too low to support any of what you describe. It's enough to confirm that you are wrong about him arching his torso back, if anything he leans forward.

Also Kwonkicker's turn kick technique is pretty shabby from a Taekwondo perspective, especially in terms of the recovery phase. I wouldn't be using him as your gold standard.

What you say about the difference between narabam and tornado is very likely local and specific to your school. Nobody out there on the international circuit makes such a distinction. Like I said, maybe get out of your back yard, there are myriad variations of this one kicking principle.

What's coming across here is that you don't have a lot of experience outside of your club, and you're arguing that what is normal as a naming convention in your club is normal everywhere. That's a very weak starting position for you, especially against people with further reaching and broader experience. Here's the kicker: people do things differently all over the world, and it's all called Taekwondo. The principle of turning before a kick goes by many different names like narabam, tornado, turn, backstep, airborne backstep, bolley, volley, nahli, nahla and more. The principle is the same in all of them. So don't tell me what I don't know, until you've looked out of your back gate.

Edit: troll is a word that you chose. I don't think you are a troll, I just think you're quite wrong on a number of issues.

If, as you claim, you didn't make this up, then where did you get it from? Oh and here's a clue - if your answer cites a single source, there's your problem.

Gnarlie

I'm not telling you why I think you don't know. But you are making a lot assumptions of my experience and where I am getting my knowledge.

I am not going to say why you feel the way you do. I can say for Cyriacus, why he doesn't know.

Call me culturally biased, my sources are all Korean born, and kukkiwon born. In person and in books.

It is not at all what you said about me.

This isn't a source, but this is an example of a narabam kick. The one where it knocks the other guy out.
http://youtu.be/sPNoGhdhKyw


A narabam kick, is a spinning turn kick. A turn kick is a roundhouse kick.

A tornado kick, though it has never been explained of its origins, seems to be an evolution of a spinning turn kick.

The lead leg is raised higher to a horizontal position for great height and power.

It may have been conceived for Olympic Taekwondo.

 

[Gnarlie]

I'm not telling you why I think you don't know. But you are making a lot assumptions of my experience and where I am getting my knowledge.

I am not going to say why you feel the way you do. I can say for Cyriacus, why he doesn't know.

Call me culturally biased, my sources are all Korean born, and kukkiwon born. In person and in books.

It is not at all what you said about me.

This isn't a source, but this is an example of a narabam kick. The one where it knocks the other guy out.
http://youtu.be/sPNoGhdhKyw


A narabam kick, is a spinning turn kick. A turn kick is a roundhouse kick.

A tornado kick, though it has never been explained of its origins, seems to be an evolution of a spinning turn kick.

The lead leg is raised higher to a horizontal position for great height and power.

It may have been conceived for Olympic Taekwondo.

Only in your back yard.

Gnarlie

 

[Dirty Dog]

Well, when you get out and do those 8 consecutive kicks, do a tornado kick and not a narabam kick. And do it without holding a door for balance. And Gnarlie I am a bit sad that you didn't notice the difference, or are you too another person who hasn't practiced taekwondo in years.[[/QUOTE/QUOTE]

Cheap shot aimed at Gnarlie.

The funny thing is, if you knew about bone conditioning, you would know that you personally being able to do a kick 3 years away from practice doesn't mean anything other than where you are physically and mentally.

Physically and mentally what?
"Bone conditioning" (which has no real meaning outside of the training done for breaking) has nothing to do with technical abilities. I personally know a man with absolutely outstanding technical ability who was sore for months after breaking a 2" board. I have nothing approaching his technical skill (my kicks will never be as pretty as his) but I can break stacks of concrete pavers all day without a problem.

I only asked for the video just to see you do it.

So where's YOUR video?

And you look exactly like I imagined.

I dunno, I thought he'd be...taller.... :rofl:

Everyone's bone structure and ability cannot be compared to another.

Sure it can. It's done every day. And we all have essentially the same bone structure.

Once you learn a kick, you can always do it again.

Absolutely untrue.
I can teach a student to do a 720 kick. I can no longer demonstrate it.

And if your bone structure is already naturally conditioned, or still retains the last level of conditioning you had before quitting, then you can do it without getting hurt. But that only means you, not everyone.

Your bone structure, my bone structure, and Cyriacus' bone structure are the same. Ask anybody with any significant education involving the study of human anatomy and physiology.

Oh wait... that would be ME...

The same thing for flexibility. Maybe you have natural flexibility, like a girl.

(Heads for the nearest fallout shelter - I don't wanna see the responses this gets from our female membership...)

 

[jks9199]

Folks -- keep things friendly and courteous. And, just maybe, avoid stereotypes... 'Cuz you know that they don't further the conversation at all...

 

[Cyriacus]

What, now I am a troll. You started this thread to argue about what you think is wrong.
And I don't mind.
So if you want to bow out, go right ahead.

Noones called you a troll in these thread. If thats how you identify yourself though, that explains a few things.
Also, i did not start this thread to argue about what i think is wrong. I started this thread because another user suggested this get split off, at which point i repeated a statement i had already made in order to facilitate conversation of you or anyone else wanted it.
I have already explained this to you.

It is too easy because you can't tell the difference.

Nope, its too easy to point out the obvious to you.

Kwonkicker, his lead leg was always high and horizontal before the kick. His torso was vertical. That is a proper tornado kick.

Do you need glasses?

Your leg was was at a steep low angle, and you torso arched backward. That is a narabam kick.

*giggles*

If Gnarlie doesn't know, then there is nothing to say, because I didn't make this up.

Thats why the world disagrees with you.

I'm not telling you why I think you don't know. But you are making a lot assumptions of my experience and where I am getting my knowledge.
I am not going to say why you feel the way you do. I can say for Cyriacus, why he doesn't know.

Youre attempting to provoke an ego i dont have for you to provoke.

Call me culturally biased, my sources are all Korean born, and kukkiwon born. In person and in books.

*giggles*

It is not at all what you said about me.

This isn't a source, but this is an example of a narabam kick. The one where it knocks the other guy out.
http://youtu.be/sPNoGhdhKyw


A narabam kick, is a spinning turn kick. A turn kick is a roundhouse kick.

A tornado kick, though it has never been explained of its origins, seems to be an evolution of a spinning turn kick.

Thats why only you seem to be making that distinction. Also, your terminology is incorrect according to the Kukkiwon standard.

The lead leg is raised higher to a horizontal position for great height and power.

I dont want height. And there was plenty of weight transfer, and therefore plenty of power.

It may have been conceived for Olympic Taekwondo.

Also unlikely.

Imma join this fun little bandwagon:
Only in your back yard, bud.

 

[Cyriacus]

I dunno, I thought he'd be...taller.... :rofl:

Ill be sure to wear work boots in future, so that i can be taller

 

[Napitenkah]

I'll disregard the subjects that are not going anywhere.

You did that kick well.

For someone who got to green belt apparently, which is after yellow in most dojangs, and just had learned some form of spinning turn kick.

All I meant by the door handle, was at the start, you used the door handle to center yourself. I was joking, but it seemed that is what you were doing.

I am not going to attack other people's credentials that still practice taekwondo. I may question why they feel a certain way about what I mentioned, but I won't speculate why publicly.

What I feel about Narabam and Tornado may turn out to be something that is not defined by Kukkiwon, at least verbally.

I know it is with some Korean masters, like Master Sung Chal whang, Master Jun chal whang.

It is like a twist kick. I was taught a twist kick, but only in sequence with a tornado. he didn't teach me the narabam kick, and he didn't tell me the name of the twist kick. I found that out later.

In karate the twist kick is called a reverse roundhouse.

 

[Napitenkah]

It is not untrue if you know what I mean.
I am talking primary colors here.
Front Kick. Back Kick. Roundhouse kick. Side kick. Hook kick.
I am not talking about olympic style kicks that require a great deal of stamina and consistent practice.
I don't feel saying that the odds of a female having good flexibility is better than a males, is a stereotype, and it certainly isn't meant to offend women. Flexibility is not a bad thing, and neither is not having much flexibility.
Not all women have good flexibility, but just from what I observed and what my wife, that was a dancer substantiated, for whatever reason it seems to be.
But that may be wrong.
If this thread originated just because it was off topic, then people wouldn't respond with such vigor.
They could have waited for the admin to move it.
This is a sparring match here, not a conversation. I would rather have a conversation, but if someone throws a kick at me or a punch, they are going to get it back.
I want a conversation/discussion.
Only about 50% of what is said, sometimes 15% depending on the moment is conversation/discussion.
No one can tell me I started this.
I got one person responding to me as if I was talking to them, but I was talking to someone else, and the someone else is defending the one person.
From what I know, the world isn't Cyriacus, Dirty Dog, and Gnarlie.
Just don't talk to me, if you don't want a discussion.
Just out of curiousity, how does one show a kick without doing it?

 

[Cyriacus]

I'll disregard the subjects that are not going anywhere.

All of these subjects have been going plenty of places.

You did that kick well.

For someone who got to green belt apparently, which is after yellow in most dojangs, and just had learned some form of spinning turn kick.

*giggles*

All I meant by the door handle, was at the start, you used the door handle to center yourself. I was joking, but it seemed that is what you were doing.
[/quote]

Joking, ey? Lemme quote you.
"Well, when you get out and do those 8 consecutive kicks, do a tornado kick and not a narabam kick. And do it without holding a door for balance. And Gnarlie I am a bit sad that you didn't notice the difference, or are you too another person who hasn't practiced taekwondo in years."

Hardy har har.
Incidentally, how is touching a door centering yourself? If you must know, i was closing it.

I am not going to attack other people's credentials that still practice taekwondo. I may question why they feel a certain way about what I mentioned, but I won't speculate why publicly.

What I feel about Narabam and Tornado may turn out to be something that is not defined by Kukkiwon, at least verbally.

"Only in your back yard." -Gnarlie
Turns out he was right all along.

I know it is with some Korean masters, like Master Sung Chal whang, Master Jun chal whang.

It is like a twist kick. I was taught a twist kick, but only in sequence with a tornado. he didn't teach me the narabam kick, and he didn't tell me the name of the twist kick. I found that out later.

In karate the twist kick is called a reverse roundhouse.

...how is this relevant?

 

[Cyriacus]

It is not untrue if you know what I mean.

Obviously if we disagree with you, it must be because we dont know something

I am talking primary colors here.
Front Kick. Back Kick. Roundhouse kick. Side kick. Hook kick.
I am not talking about olympic style kicks that require a great deal of stamina and consistent practice.

Round kicks require a great deal of stamina and consistent practice? Push kicks do as well? Wow! I never knew olympic TKD was so complicated!

I don't feel saying that the odds of a female having good flexibility is better than a males, is a stereotype, and it certainly isn't meant to offend women. Flexibility is not a bad thing, and neither is not having much flexibility.
Not all women have good flexibility, but just from what I observed and what my wife, that was a dancer substantiated, for whatever reason it seems to be.
But that may be wrong.

Sure.

If this thread originated just because it was off topic, then people wouldn't respond with such vigor.

Vigor? *giggles*
These replies are taking me less than five minutes to punch out.

They could have waited for the admin to move it.

Or they could have kept talking about it in the old thread. *shrugs*

This is a sparring match here, not a conversation. I would rather have a conversation, but if someone throws a kick at me or a punch, they are going to get it back.

This isnt a sparring match, as much as you might like this to be ego driven.
If you notice, youre the one coming up with new reasons each time why youre right about this whilst we keep presenting valid information to the contrary.

I want a conversation/discussion.
Only about 50% of what is said, sometimes 15% depending on the moment is conversation/discussion.
No one can tell me I started this.

Why would we want to tell you 'you started this'? You made a statement, and we started it by challenging what you said. We started this, not you.

I got one person responding to me as if I was talking to them, but I was talking to someone else, and the someone else is defending the one person.

This is a public discussion board. Get used to it.

From what I know, the world isn't Cyriacus, Dirty Dog, and Gnarlie.

Nope - But the fact that theres more of us, and the fact that we can back up every single thing we are saying, kinda constitutes the world. Where are all the qualified TKD people backing up your claims? Because theres a fair few of those people on this very forum.

Just don't talk to me, if you don't want a discussion.

Why wouldnt we want a discussion? This is the second time youve tried to tell us to back off. First by saying there was no shame in bowing out, and now this. Its like you think were looking for an exit. I for one am looking forward to your next list of reasons why youre right about this. Youve also taken a few shots at us. I for one have not taken a single shot at you, nor have i at any point made any claims about myself or my ability. Hence my amusement when you said,
"And see if you are as tough as you like to sound on here."
You later jabbed at the ego you think i have again with.
"I can say for Cyriacus, why he doesn't know."
You also jabbed at Gnarlie with,
"And Gnarlie I am a bit sad that you didn't notice the difference, or are you too another person who hasn't practiced taekwondo in years."
Anyone who wants to see the various other times youve done this need only go back and read a little. Youre the one whos not discussing, here.

Just out of curiousity, how does one show a kick without doing it?

What does that have anything to do with?

 

[Gnarlie]

I'll disregard the subjects that are not going anywhere.

Me too.

You did that kick well.

He did.

For someone who got to green belt apparently, which is after yellow in most dojangs, and just had learned some form of spinning turn kick.

Saucer of milk? It was fine for a 5 second video and more than adequately demonstrated his point that you don't need to be bone conditioned to throw the kick. The production values were terrible, though

All I meant by the door handle, was at the start, you used the door handle to center yourself. I was joking, but it seemed that is what you were doing.

Yeah, right.

I am not going to attack other people's credentials that still practice taekwondo. I may question why they feel a certain way about what I mentioned, but I won't speculate why publicly.

You shouldn't. I don't feel anything about what you say. The reason I respond is that this is a public forum and there is already enough misinformation about TKD on the internet without you adding to it.

What I feel about Narabam and Tornado may turn out to be something that is not defined by Kukkiwon, at least verbally.

The principle kick is defined as &#46028;&#47140;&#52264;&#44592;. Variants tend to be described using the word 'turn' or the number '360' plus a word describing whether the kick is jumped or not. So no, it is not defined verbally using your non-standard terminology.

I know it is with some Korean masters,

Some? Not all? So, non-standard localised terminology then.

like Master Sung Chal whang, Master Jun chal whang.

Ah, the co-authors of 'Taekwondo the state of the art' with Brandon Salz. I have that book - one containing A LOT of information which does not align with current Kukkiwon standards, both terminology and techniques. Not a reliable source of information in terms of standard practice, I'm sorry to say. OK for beginners, but not for higher grades.

It is like a twist kick. I was taught a twist kick, but only in sequence with a tornado. he didn't teach me the narabam kick, and he didn't tell me the name of the twist kick. I found that out later.

You 'found it out' from where? From 'Taekwondo: the state of the art'?

Biteureo chagi should be taught as a kick in its own right, it's defined as such.

In karate the twist kick is called a reverse roundhouse.

In your back yard

Gnarlie

 

[Gnarlie]

This is a sparring match here, not a conversation. I would rather have a conversation, but if someone throws a kick at me or a punch, they are going to get it back.

Still a conversation.

I want a conversation/discussion.
Only about 50% of what is said, sometimes 15% depending on the moment is conversation/discussion.

So what's the rest in your view? About 30% is you giving erroneous or non-standard information, the other 70 is people telling you your information is erroneous or non-standard and giving reasons why.

No one can tell me I started this.
I got one person responding to me as if I was talking to them, but I was talking to someone else, and the someone else is defending the one person.
From what I know, the world isn't Cyriacus, Dirty Dog, and Gnarlie.

No, the world is the World Taekwondo Headquarters, Kukkiwon. And the world disagrees with you.

Just don't talk to me, if you don't want a discussion.

If we didn't want discussion, we wouldn't be here. This discussion for me is not about me personally being right, it's about not having incorrect or misleading information here. The terminology you are using is western language. The Korean language terms and their romanisations are the standard. The word 'Tornado' is meaningless in the context of Kukki Taekwondo.

Just out of curiousity, how does one show a kick without doing it?

Just out of curiosity, why do you ask?

Gnarlie

 

[Cyriacus]

The production values were terrible, though

To be completely fair, my zero budget production came out in 480p!

 

[Napitenkah]

You guys don't really want to talk to me, so after this, I won't engage any of you 2 to 3 people.

You just want to spar.

The book shows all taeqeuk forms exactly as Kukkiwon and my instructor showed me, and they have Taeqeuk pal jang even stepping forward on the first move, like you have been saying is how it is done to this day.

Assuming any of you even read it, and not just glanced at the cover online.

You are just saying things. Kwonkicker doesn't kick properly, I don't know anything outside my own back yard.

But You give me full credit for anything that can even be remotely taken as an insult or cheap shot. using the door for balance, female flexibility, being sad about something.

There is no WTF TKD, and it always saddens me that people who train in Kukkiwon style TKD confuse the two.

And Gnarlie I am a bit sad that you didn't notice the difference, or are you too another person who hasn't practiced taekwondo in years.[

Cheap shot aimed at Gnarlie.

It is, if I say it, I am bad, and if one of the 3 of you say something, it is justified and probably kinder than what I deserve.

It is just a few of you.

It seems like each forum has a few Guardians of whatever martial art. or they see themselves that way.

But from what I have seen, there isn't balance.

Sorry Admin, I can't keep it polite when some people keep goiter stabbing, so I am done.

 

[Cyriacus]

You guys don't really want to talk to me, so after this, I won't engage any of you 2 to 3 people.

You just want to spar.

So you keep saying.

You are just saying things. Kwonkicker doesn't kick properly, I don't know anything outside my own back yard.

We can back up everything we're saying, and we have been. Youre the one whos just talking, bud.

But You give me full credit for anything that can even be remotely taken as an insult or cheap shot. using the door for balance, female flexibility, being sad about something.

I commented that im not very flexible. Another commented that some of the women on here may take offense.
Also, theyre not remotely taken. Youre making rather direct statements.

It is, if I say it, I am bad, and if one of the 3 of you say something, it is justified and probably kinder than what I deserve.

This isnt a vendetta - Youre giving yourself too much credit there, im afraid. Much like the idea that vigor is going into our replies.

It is just a few of you.
It seems like each forum has a few Guardians of whatever martial art. or they see themselves that way.

Im not a Martial Arts person. Hows that for your profile of a 'guardian'?

But from what I have seen, there isn't balance.

So sorry you feel that way.

Sorry Admin, I can't keep it polite when some people keep goiter stabbing, so I am done.

This is the second time youve been done. We've been rather polite and we've addressed every single thing youve said. If you view people not agreeing with you as being goiter stabbing, well, thats your thing.