Competing against Karate in forms

[exile]

First of all, Tez and Michael, thanks for the kinds words, they do mean a lot to me. But the fact is, you both, and a number of other people who've posted on this thread, have made outstanding points that I hope xray takes seriously, as a way to understand just what his son's experience means (and doesn't mean). Kids always take contests seriously, and feel bad about losing, no matter what's involved; but a parent who can see through the contest aspect can explain to a disappointed child that in this case, his `loss' does not have the slightest implications for his MA activities, his progress, his skill, or his enjoyment in what he's doing.

If there's anyone who deserves credit for the kinds of things that I've posted about, it's the people I cite, who've done the necessary hard research and testing legwork, and the clear, hard thinking about the MAs, and have constructed a realistic perspective that can explain where we've come to, and why, and what we need to understand in order to recover the MAs from the entertainment hype that threatens to turn them all into martial spectacle along the lines that FC has written about previously in connection with the CMAs. These are people who take traditional martial practice as their touchstone, not because of any romantic mystification of the old masters—either their (often pretty raunchy) characters or their (considerble, but far from superhuman) martial powers. The conclusions of these outstanting practitioners/investigators should be very reassuring: yes, there is a considerable amount of real, practical knowledge built into MA forms; yes, you too can learn to extract that knowledge; and yes, you can derive its full benefits even if you've never won, or placed, or even participated in a forms competition. You just have to be willing to learn a bit about how to `read' kata, and you have to be willing—this is the difficult part—to do hard training to ingrain in yourself the reactions that allow you to apply the kata-based SD methods instantly, without having to stop and think.

I hope that xray's son continues with his MA training, and that over time he finds himself thinking about forms in much the way that many of us on this thread clearly do. The most important thing I'd say to xray is that good instructors who can make clear the combat meaning of the TKD hyungs are worth their weight in gold; if his son's teachers are like that, don't give a second thought to anything else. And the next most important thing is to pursue a little bit of independent investigation on his own into the practical use of kata, so that he can help his son see things in a realistic perspective that's not warped by the very artificial priorities of tournament competition. Tournaments are like the movies: they are great fun, but they're not real life!

 

[kuntawguro]

I read somewhere a translation of karate Instructors language-

"We don't compete in tournaments" = we don't do well in tournaments
" I don't do point sparring" = I don't do well in point sparring
" I don't do forms"= I don't do forms well

If there was a good reason for not doing well at a karate type tournament such as " they don't know our forms" I would do terrible because I am a filipino stylist competing against TKD, Karate, Kempo, and Isshin ryu- yet I do quite well. So, I take that as this- either I have shown form, focus , speed, power in my forms to the point that the judges cannot deny it- or they are so intimidated by me that they just give me the points- I think not. So- I don't even listen to people who say- I didn't win because I was not TKD-Karate or...... you didn't win because someone else was better. Plain and simple. There are those tournaments out there where they play favorites- but they are the exception, not the rule.
Just my 2 pesos

 

[exile]

I read somewhere a translation of karate Instructors language-

"We don't compete in tournaments" = we don't do well in tournaments
" I don't do point sparring" = I don't do well in point sparring
" I don't do forms"= I don't do forms well

If the focus of your dojo or dojang is street defense and all-in fighting using MAs to inflict maximum damage to an untrained violent attacker, why would you be interested in tournaments? Do you really think that someone who couldn't care less about who wins a TKD tournament under WTF rules avoids such contests because they don't `do well'? If someone's an endurance/extreme situation cyclist, do you figure the only reason they wouldn't enter a bicycle/juggling contest is because `they wouldn't do well'?? In the parallel situation with respect to MAists. what about the far more plausible reason that they think the whole premise of the contest, the scoring system and everything that goes with it, is irrelevant to what they're doing MAs for?

If there was a good reason for not doing well at a karate type tournament such as " they don't know our forms" I would do terrible because I am a filipino stylist competing against TKD, Karate, Kempo, and Isshin ryu- yet I do quite well. So, I take that as this- either I have shown form, focus , speed, power in my forms to the point that the judges cannot deny it- or they are so intimidated by me that they just give me the points- I think not. So- I don't even listen to people who say- I didn't win because I was not TKD-Karate or...... you didn't win because someone else was better. Plain and simple. There are those tournaments out there where they play favorites- but they are the exception, not the rule.
Just my 2 pesos

Well, there are plenty of people around who have had quite different experiences. And their stories have just as much validity as yours. I don't have a horse in this race at all, because the instruction in my school isn't aimed at the MA dueling that tournament competition consists of. But there are very good MAists around who do compete in such tournaments, and they have very different stories to tell from yours. No one is complaining; everyone understands that that's often the way things are. But if you're going to extrapolate strictly from your own experience to one conclusion, there's no reason for them not to do the same from theirs, and come to very different conclusions.

 

[kuntawguro]

Well, there are plenty of people around who have had quite different experiences. And their stories have just as much validity as yours. I don't have a horse in this race at all, because the instruction in my school isn't aimed at the MA dueling that tournament competition consists of. But there are very good MAists around who do compete in such tournaments, and they have very different stories to tell from yours. No one is complaining; everyone understands that that's often the way things are. But if you're going to extrapolate strictly from your own experience to one conclusion, there's no reason for them not to do the same from theirs, and come to very different conclusions.

As I stated-=Just my 2 pesos, I am sure there are many who have felt slighted at one time or another


Tournaments are a great way to meet new people, new styles, and different ideas. If you are a gun collector and all you do is polish your guns, what good are they in a time of defense? How do you know they will fire? If you collect guns and just cleaned them on a regular basis- how do you know they would actually fire. And if all you did was shoot at a static target how would you know if you could hit a moving target? You take them to a shooting range, you sight them in. You may even set up targets to test your ability. Moving targets test your timing. Hogan’s Alley ranges put you under a little bit of pressure to shoot only when needed and at the right targets. If you take the guns hunting, you have a chance to put all aspects of your skills into effect.


Tournaments give you a chance to hone your skills of timing, focus, controlling anger, controlling power in a controlled (somewhat) environment. How do you know a technique will work unless you use it in an environment other than your classroom training? In a tournament you are going against another style anew opponent and you are under pressure to not fail. Many Martial arts instructors keep their students from competing citing the inaccurate realism of actual combat. True, it isn’t real fighting but, it is against most arts philosophies to actually fight. Other than going into a bar and picking a fight, how do you do this? This can be a trial run so to speak of your abilities. By attending a tournament, you learn to go up against an unknown in a controlled environment. Without the fear of getting hurt. The only other way to test your skill s would be to start a fight and that is not allowed. Trophies earned in competition also help you to develop self worth as well.

 

[Kacey]

I keep meaning to respond to this thread and not having time, so here goes:

First, the original question was:

Hi all. Noob here.Our 7 y/o son went to his first tournament yesterday. We were suprised to see that he was the only kid performing Tae-Kwon-Do. As this was his first tournament, he competed in forms, and came in 7th. It just didn't seem like he could fairly compete against the karate forms which were much more complex and lengthy. Is it possible to fairly compete against the karate forms? He's a little discouraged. Thanks in advance!

If this was an open tournament (that is, open to all styles), but attended primarily by karate stylists, then yes, your son is probably at a disadvantage - not because the TKD is qualitatively different from the karate, but because it is quantitatively different; that is, the standard of what constitutes a "good" form is different between the two styles - and if the tournament is attended by predominately karate stylist, then the judges will be predominately karate stylists. It is possible to judge forms objectively, by the consistency of the movements within the form itself - but if the judges are not accustomed to such judging, then it's pretty hard, and likely to be less objective than is to be hoped.

If your son went to the tournament to gain experience - then he's done that... and that is, IMHO, the primary purpose of attending tournaments, especially at his age and rank. If he went to earn a trophy... well... then you might want to find a TKD tournament next time, or an open tournament with smaller divisions - many tournaments I've attended purposely keep the kids' divisions smaller so that all of the younger kids (under 10 or so) can get a trophy or medal.

When I take students to a tournament, it's so they can learn - by facing unfamiliar opponents in forms, sparring, breaking, and whatever other activities may be occurring. If they learn something at the tournament, and can tell me about it - then I'm happy. Medals are nice... but that's not really the purpose of tournament competition, at least not to me.

I've judged open forms competition before, and it can be really hard. What I look for is consistency - is any given stance performed the same way each time it appears, is the power at a consistent level throughout, are similar moves performed similarly (same height, same direction, same target) when appropriate, are the movements performed with realism (does it appear that the performer knows what the moves are for), and so on.

With similar styles, it can be both easier and more difficult, because similar styles often diverge over technical details (speed, stances, etc.) which can make well-performed forms from another style look wrong even when they are done to a very high standard for the style they are in - while more divergent styles can be sufficiently different that it is more obvious that the same standards do not apply, and is therefore easier to apply objective standards.

 

[exile]

Tournaments are a great way to meet new people, new styles, and different ideas. If you are a gun collector and all you do is polish your guns, what good are they in a time of defense? How do you know they will fire? If you collect guns and just cleaned them on a regular basis- how do you know they would actually fire./B]And if all you did was shoot at a static target how would you know if you could hit a moving target? You take them to a shooting range, you sight them in. You may even set up targets to test your ability. Moving targets test your timing. Hogan’s Alley ranges put you under a little bit of pressure to shoot only when needed and at the right targets. If you take the guns hunting, you have a chance to put all aspects of your skills into effect.

Realistic combat in full or partial padding. What Iain Abernethy calls kata-based sparring: no rules, except that you can't administer an eye strike hard enough to actually blind someone. Take a look at the reality-based scenario training described in his book Bunkai Jutsu. Or Peyton Quinn's Real Fighting: Adrenaline Stress Conditioning through Scenario Based Training. Or a dozen other books that explain how to simulate real combat, progressively, in stages, until you're able to respond to the half dozen or so standard violence-initiatiating moves that begin street attacks with speed, precision and self-control. To continue your analogy, you're talking about training for a gun-fight by going out to the target range; I'm talking about a gunfight by training for a gunfight. Tournaments aren't training you for street violence. Only training specifically for street violence gives you the skills to handle a violent street attacker. This approach to the the practical application of TMA skills is at least a decade old; no one who's experimented with them will think of tournaments as anything remotely in the same category, so far as effective combat methods go.

Tournaments give you a chance to hone your skills of timing, focus, controlling anger, controlling power in a controlled (somewhat) environment. How do you know a technique will work unless you use it in an environment other than your classroom training? In a tournament you are going against another style anew opponent and you are under pressure to not fail. Many Martial arts instructors keep their students from competing citing the inaccurate realism of actual combat. True, it isn’t real fighting but, it is against most arts philosophies to actually fight.

I'm sorry, but I'm having a hard time understanding this last bit... you don't fight because you want to, if you're a rational being who understands how dangerous a real fight is. You fight because you have to. The skills you seem to think are so critical to success in a tournament are not the skills that you need in a streetfight. `How do you know a technique will work unless you use it in an environment other than your classroom training?' Well, do you train neck breaks in a tournament? Do you train the application of so-called `upper blocks' as forearm strikes to the attacker's throat? Do you train joint breaks? Spearing elbow strikes to an attacker's eyes, or to his upper jaw just under the nose, or hard slaps to the side of his head to damage his inner ear so that his sense of balance is disrupted to the point where he cannot stand up? Those are the kind of techniques that are going to save your butt in a streetfight. Use any of these extremely effective techniques in tournament and you'll be disqualified before your opponent hits the ground.

Let's look at some other MAs whose founders have made the conscious decision not to develop a martial sport side. There are no Combat_Hapkido tournaments (check out their official site, http://www.ichf.com/, for verification of this, if you're interested). But CH is a frighteninly effective self-defense system whose advanced practitioners train in a very realistic way, and the average street thug would be a utter fool to confront a competent CH fighter. Limb destruction and really painful locks and throws (as I can attest from experience) are what this MA trains. If you look into this or similar arts a little bit, I don't think you'll wind up really imagining that adepts in such fighting systems are troubled by the fact that their realistic training protocols don't have the additional `accolade' of tournament trophies decorating their dojangs...

Other than going into a bar and picking a fight, how do you do this? This can be a trial run so to speak of your abilities. By attending a tournament, you learn to go up against an unknown in a controlled environment. Without the fear of getting hurt. The only other way to test your skill s would be to start a fight and that is not allowed.Trophies earned in competition also help you to develop self worth as well.

I've answered the bolded question. The second bolded statement is factually wrong—way wrong; I've given you a couple of place to find out about the `other ways' you appear to be unaware of, the realistic training protocols that people like Quinn and Abernethy have developed. The kind of training involved can, of course, get you hurt. And if you're afraid of training which may get you hurt, then your MA is not going to do you much good in the rare, but not unknown, situation where you have to fight against a violent, determined attacker. You can be as self confident as you please, based on those trophies, but should you ever have to rely on your tournament skills alone to save your butt in a deserted parkade some night, you're very likely going to find yourself much less self-confident the next day.

 

[kuntawguro]

I am afraid you have lost sight of the original question in this thread, I have been addressing that. There are MMA competitions- but not forr 7 yr olds, there are dog brother style full contact weapons matches, but- not for 7 yr olds



I have long heard the lament of TKD, Karate, and Silat people that they can not be judged fairly at tourneys. Oh well
no where was reality fighting brought up for 7 yr olds. I just stated that tourneys serve a function that can substitute for realtime fighting. - Safely

I put on the goggles and go all out in knife fighting- but it isn't REAL, I put on the armor and do full contact stick fighting- but it too is not REAL
but it is a good way to train for many things- reaction time etc
MY 2 pesos

 

[exile]

I am afraid you have lost sight of the original question in this thread, I have been addressing that. There are MMA competitions- but not forr 7 yr olds, there are dog brother style full contact weapons matches, but- not for 7 yr olds

I have long heard the lament of TKD, Karate, and Silat people that they can not be judged fairly at tourneys. Oh well
no where was reality fighting brought up for 7 yr olds. I just stated that tourneys serve a function that can substitute for realtime fighting. - Safely

Actually, kuntawguro, your reply suggests to me that you've not been following the past dozen or so of the posts, which have been about the martial content of kata/hyungs, as vs. the stylized choreography-based scoring system of tournament kata/hyung competition. The burden of these previous posts was that given the essential nature of MA forms as records of effective techniques, judging their dramatic/æsthetic performance, as a kind of martial ballet, misses the whole reason why the forms were created—as logs of effective technique, to use Flying Crane's wonderfully compact characterization—and replaces that solid, practical basis with an aritificial, drama-based criterion of success. And there was a pretty general sentiment expressed that this represented yet another tournament-based dilution of martial content (just as tournament sparring does wrt real combat). The point of all this is that xray's son's tournament performance is essentially irrelevant to his skill development as a MAist, because that development is predicated on the acquisition of the combat substance of TKD, and that substance is not reflected in the least in tournament forms competition.

So when you post an argument that tournament conditions are the best ones to train your MAs under and can provide you with an opportunity to test that martial content that otherwise you can't, I have to say that you missed the point of the discussion context in which your post appears. We have been trying to show xray that the nature of tournament competition is largely irrelevant to the martial content of MA forms; the post from me that you're responding to was aimed completely at that content, and how best to train it. So your comments about my missing the point of the OP seem to me to... well, to miss the point, for the reasons I've just given.

I put on the goggles and go all out in knife fighting- but it isn't REAL, I put on the armor and do full contact stick fighting- but it too is not REAL
but it is a good way to train for many things- reaction time etc
MY 2 pesos

Let's bring the discussion back into the context of ours disagreement, eh? When you go out to fight with training knifes, you presumably train killing techniques; but the knifes are designed so they won't kill. In a knife-fighting tournament set up under rules analogous to standard MA tournament rules, you couldn't stab someone in the face, or feint at the chest and slash downard `into' their genitals, or any of the other effective knife fighting techs that you have to use if you want to be the survivor in a knife fight. You would get no better training in the use of the knife as a killing weapon for self-defense than you do in training TKD or karate in the point-scoring tournament sparring conditions that the martial sport auxiliaries to these MAs impose.

 

[kuntawguro]

Hi all. Noob here.Our 7 y/o son went to his first tournament yesterday. We were suprised to see that he was the only kid performing Tae-Kwon-Do. As this was his first tournament, he competed in forms, and came in 7th. It just didn't seem like he could fairly compete against the karate forms which were much more complex and lengthy. Is it possible to fairly compete against the karate forms? He's a little discouraged. Thanks in advance!

I have been following all the posts, but this was the original question.
I don't go for the extreme MA katas, and I do not believe that tournaments are the end all, but they are pretty much the best you can get if you are a 7 yr old and your parents and your sensei doesn't want you to pick school yard fights.

 

[exile]

I have been following all the posts, but this was the original question.
I don't go for the extreme MA katas, and I do not believe that tournaments are the end all, but they are pretty much the best you can get if you are a 7 yr old and your parents and your sensei doesn't want you to pick school yard fights.

Really? Then it would help make your constructive points better if you didn't come on like gangbusters with a set of comments about `translating karate instructors' that suggested that the only reason one wouldn't bother with tournament foot-tag competition was because one wasn't good at it. Do you see the kind of attitude that that sort of comment projects? And why some of us who are primarily interested in the fighting content of the MAs—and who are anxious to assure a concerned father that the artificial conventions of tournament competition are largely irrelevant to the essential point of the kata his little boy is trying to learn and understand—might find those remarks a bit... smug, let's say?

 

[jks9199]

For a seven year old, I look for the same things I do for an adult -- but I adjust the quality of the expectation, if that makes sense. It's the same way that I can watch a black belt and a white belt do the same form, but I expect each to show it at a different level.

I don't expect kids to show the depth that I'd expect an adult to show, but I'm still looking for that intensity/focus, for proper technique, for simply knowing the form. I'll generally rate a more complex form, done reasonably well higher than a simpler form done reasonably well, especially with kids. But cleaner technique, better focus can beat a more advanced form.

 

[exile]

For a seven year old, I look for the same things I do for an adult -- but I adjust the quality of the expectation, if that makes sense. It's the same way that I can watch a black belt and a white belt do the same form, but I expect each to show it at a different level.

I don't expect kids to show the depth that I'd expect an adult to show, but I'm still looking for that intensity/focus, for proper technique, for simply knowing the form. I'll generally rate a more complex form, done reasonably well higher than a simpler form done reasonably well, especially with kids. But cleaner technique, better focus can beat a more advanced form.

In a way, it's far more impressive when a kid shows just a bit of that kind of focus than when an adult shows a lot of it. I can remember when my ten-year old was seven, and anything even a little bit like focus would have been a major cause for celebration... still is, come to think of it . Adults have had decades of training in channeling their attention on a single point, but a seven-year old boy?... even a little bit of that is major victory.