Shaolin Kenpo - Tournaments - do you enter Traditional forms or Kung Fu / Chinese (soft) forms division?

[Kung Fu Wang]

A good friend of mine (he trains CMA) loved to compete form in karate tournament. He had collected many 1st place black belt trophies. He would always stared with a slow Taiji form. Before all the audience almost fell to sleep, he suddenly connected to a fast long fist form with a lot of fancy kicks.

Form competition in US is very strange indeed.

 

[shima]

I think this description is unclear. As I stated earlier, kung fu forms are very traditional. So what do they mean with the other category, “Traditional” as something apparently separate from kung fu?

Or by kung fu, do they actually mean Modern Wushu which is definitely not traditional kung fu. Maybe they don’t know they difference? Maybe they think all kung fu is Modern Wushu?

I think you need to get some clarity from them. And kenpo is it’s own thing. It is not kung fu, and it is not Japanese or Okinawan karate, it is not Tae kwon do or tang soo do. So given those choices, I’m not sure what to suggest.

TKO League = Texas Karate Organization. The organizer told me traditional means Japanese (karate) and Korean hard styles.

I'm quite away Kenpo is it's own thing, in the California Bay Area we had a Kenpo/Kajukenbo division just for our forms. Sadly no luck here . I believe based on the other division being called Kung Fu / Chinese (soft) = they mean anything along that China side that isn't the "traditional" Japanese/Korean arts?

It's super frustrating to not have our own division since I really don't know which we'll have the better chance of our students doing well in... Glad you're just as lost as I am on what we should do LOL.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It's super frustrating to not have our own division

Back in those years, there was no Kung Fu tournament. All CMA people had to compete in Karate, or TKD tournament. Since most Karate people dressed white and most CMA people dressed black, A CMA person had to dress white Kung Fu uniform to be able to blend into a white Karate tournament. Today even Karate people dress black.

 

[Flying Crane]

TKO League = Texas Karate Organization. The organizer told me traditional means Japanese (karate) and Korean hard styles.

I'm quite away Kenpo is it's own thing, in the California Bay Area we had a Kenpo/Kajukenbo division just for our forms. Sadly no luck here . I believe based on the other division being called Kung Fu / Chinese (soft) = they mean anything along that China side that isn't the "traditional" Japanese/Korean arts?

It's super frustrating to not have our own division since I really don't know which we'll have the better chance of our students doing well in... Glad you're just as lost as I am on what we should do LOL.

Well, it sounds like you are a square peg being crammed into a round hole. I guess go with the Chinese division. You aren’t going to get the right fit no matter what, but I guess they have some very specific things in mind for the Traditional division, and you guys are not that. Looks like they are using the Chinese division as a catch-all for everything else, which suggests to me they are not terribly knowledgeable about it. You may need to educate them on this and it might take a few years before they take notice.

 

[Flying Crane]

This remind me one year in Dallas Taiji legacy tournament, there was a Baji form division. One guy used a long fist form to compete in that Baji division. I gave him a very low score. The other judges all asked me why. I told them that this guy did not do Baji form. Apparently, all judges (except me) have no idea about what Baji form supposed to look like.

Sometime even the judges may have no idea about what they are judging.

Truth!

And by the way, back in the 1970s one of my teachers went with a group to Texas to a tournament. A Texas police saw their California license plates and pulled them over. One of his friends had long hair. The police officer took him to a barber and made him cut his hair.

 

[chiquest]

Actually, the word "Kenpo" was not used until after William Chow. Before that, the disciple was known as "Kempo". Also, "Kenpo" is a Japanese translation of the Chinese word "quánfǎ" ("Chu'an Fa"). So, Chinese Martial Artists did not use the word "Kenpo". As I posted earlier, one interesting story is that in James Mitose's manuscript for his book, "What is True Self-Defense?", he called the style "Kempo". The publisher inexplicably changed the spelling to "Kenpo". When numerous books were printed, Mitose saw the modification and asked the publisher to change the name back to "Kempo". When the publisher told him how expensive it would be, Mitose decided to leave the modified spelling in the book. The rest, as they say, is history. That is why the names "Kempo" and "Kenpo" are really interchangeable and refer to the same discipline.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

What the kenpo folks ended up with in their version of that form is an atrocity. They learned it from James Wing Woo (perhaps @Wing Woo Gar could fill in some blanks) but somehow it got all weird. I learned it when I was training Tracy lineage. It is an atrocity. It is better to not be in there.

The whole Ed Parker and James Wing Woo story… oh boy, I’m sure that won’t make me very popular with a certain sect of EPK folks.

 

[Flying Crane]

The whole Ed Parker and James Wing Woo story… oh boy, I’m sure that won’t make me very popular with a certain sect of EPK folks.

Fifteen years ago a lot of those folks were active on this site. Then a sister site was opened, kenpotalk.com, and most went over there to talk only kenpo. Some still show up here occasionally. It looks to me like KT just closed for good, recently. Suddenly I can’t get anything when I try to go there. It has been mostly dead for years, I was wondering why anyone was keeping it open.

At any rate, not a lot of them here, at least not actively posting.

 

[Buka]

Shima, it's all about the competitors, especially if they're kids. My advice would be to enter them in the one where 80% of them will NOT be in the same division.

And best of luck to you and all your students!

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I don't understand why Kun Fu form is called "soft form"?
Do the following 2 CMA forms look soft?

This guy won the 1st place in 1975 (or 1974?) Bruce Lee Memorial Dallas Karate tournament black belt division. Even by Karate standard, he got highest grade (I recorded this with my 8mm camera).

This is what a CMA form judge may look for - smooth, flexible, fast, powerful, ...

I competed in that tournament too (It was good to be young).

Nice!

 

[pel1188]

Do traditional. From what I’ve seen in Michigan soft forms look more like tai chi

 

[pel1188]

Do traditional. From what I’ve seen in Michigan soft forms look more like tai chi

Also watching your forms on YouTube, they would fit better in that category.

 

[Old Happy Tiger]

Actually, the word "Kenpo" was not used until after William Chow. Before that, the disciple was known as "Kempo". Also, "Kenpo" is a Japanese translation of the Chinese word "quánfǎ" ("Chu'an Fa"). So, Chinese Martial Artists did not use the word "Kenpo". As I posted earlier, one interesting story is that in James Mitose's manuscript for his book, "What is True Self-Defense?", he called the style "Kempo". The publisher inexplicably changed the spelling to "Kenpo". When numerous books were printed, Mitose saw the modification and asked the publisher to change the name back to "Kempo". When the publisher told him how expensive it would be, Mitose decided to leave the modified spelling in the book. The rest, as they say, is history. That is why the names "Kempo" and "Kenpo" are really interchangeable and refer to the same discipline.

Respectfully, that is interesting... I've never heard that story. I was always told that the Kenpo name, was towards the Okinawan Karate based teachings of James Mitose as his art did not have any Chinese based or sounding techniques, mainly all linear with some wrist and arm locks, throws and some groundwork. Very much like Okinawan Karate regarding the punches and kicks. Kempo was used more for any style that used again Chinese techniques or similar sounding techniques like "twin hammers", ect. Or any Kempo style that use animals strikes from the Chinese 5 animal style.

 

[shima]

Also from an romanization perspective, kenpo in Japanese is けんぽう in hiragana, 拳法 in kanji. https://jisho.org/word/拳法

Where I'm going w/ this language lesson is the alphabetical, aka hiragana, spelling breaks down as such:
け = ke ん = n ぽ = po う = u (or in this case making the po a longer sound)

There is no standalone "m" sound in Japanese, so if we are taking the name Kenpo from the Japanese pronunciation/reading, then Kenpo is the correct romanization technically if you want to go purist...

... however if you want to apply old traditional Hepburn romanization, then per Wikipedia "Syllabic n (ん) is written as n before consonants, but as m before labial consonants: b, m, and p." But Modern Hepburn doesn't use this, and still uses "n" and no "m" for the reading.
Hepburn romanization - Wikipedia

I majored in Japanese Studies for my BA/MA and I'm at a conversational fluency level (N3 of the 日本語能力試験) for background into my analysis of the above

Meanwhile, those same characters in Chinese are pronounced: Quánfǎ <-- nothing like the romanization of the Japanese into Kenpo/Kempo

So the TL : DR Kenpo and Kempo are both technically the same word, just different romanizations of the same word in Japanese. Some masters liked 1 versus the other, so how we choose to use them is another matter.

 

[shima]

Also watching your forms on YouTube, they would fit better in that category.

Yeah, after much deliberating, I came to the same conclusion. If I emphasize they really lock out the strikes and such too we just won't be as fluid as Kung Fu even if we are doing our "flow" style, so that's my plan for us to compete in Traditional. Neither is really ideal, but of the two Traditional seems to make the most sense for this tournament....

...plus I hated the idea of all kids 11 and under beginner AND intermediate being lumped into ONE division at that tournament if we did the "soft"/Chinese/Kung Fu division. That would be almost all my kid students competing against each other.

 

[shima]

Shima, it's all about the competitors, especially if they're kids. My advice would be to enter them in the one where 80% of them will NOT be in the same division.

And best of luck to you and all your students!

Yup, 100% agree and that's why we have decided to enter them into Traditional! I would be so mad if they were all competing against each other, lol, we could just do an inter-school tournament at that point instead

 

[jks9199]

Going back to my original question, what do we compete in? Traditional or Chinese? I'm still very lost as to what is the right division for my students to compete in. I can link some videos of some of our katas if it will help.

Most likely, the Traditional Forms refers the hard style, more rigid forms like Japanese Karate, Tae Kwon Do, and similar arts. That's why they have a different category for soft/Chinese styles; those forms are just different and often don't compete well against each other. The third form category they have is the Creative ones -- and that's the XMA/tricking stuff. We'll safely assume your forms don't fall there, I think.

Look at your forms; what do they resemble more? Karate kata or Chinese kung fu forms? If they're hard-style forms similar to karate, I'd say compete there -- but if they look more like a kung fu form... compete there. And if you've got some that are either... split your students around where they can compete at their best!

 

[shima]

Most likely, the Traditional Forms refers the hard style, more rigid forms like Japanese Karate, Tae Kwon Do, and similar arts. That's why they have a different category for soft/Chinese styles; those forms are just different and often don't compete well against each other. The third form category they have is the Creative ones -- and that's the XMA/tricking stuff. We'll safely assume your forms don't fall there, I think.

Look at your forms; what do they resemble more? Karate kata or Chinese kung fu forms? If they're hard-style forms similar to karate, I'd say compete there -- but if they look more like a kung fu form... compete there. And if you've got some that are either... split your students around where they can compete at their best!

think you didn't see my replies from earlier this week, but we will be competing in Traditional, we really are somewhere more in the middle for Shaolin Kenpo, but of the two a) slightly more locking and b) the kids would get screwed in the Chinese/soft division as it's 11 and under beginner and intermediate all in one division, so not a good experience for them there.