Competing against Karate in forms

[exile]

Right, thats completely logical. I can teach you to kick and punch, teach you how to use the body weapons you take with you anywhere, but I question the students judgement enough that I won't teach them a weapon. Apparently it takes a genius to figure out how to swing a stick....

I don't think it's the technical aspect which is the problem, but the... um, behavioral part. The instructor doesn't want the kids using each other as uke, willingly or (more likely) unwillingly, when a force multiplier like a six-foot pole is involved. It's bad if a child decides to check out his current skill set on a friend (or otherwise); it's way worse if he does it with with something, like a bo, that allows him to translate a moderately fast arm torque into a really scary angular velocity.

There's something to this caution... I keep telling the kids in my TKD classes, don't do this stuff to each other. Don't. Don't. Don't... and I am always seeing them doing it anyway, during the water breaks. And a lot of them are around this little boy's age, or just a bit older...

 

[jks9199]

In most open tournaments, it's hard to really get fair judging of forms. In my immediate area, since there is a huge Tae Kwon Do community, they tend to dominate the judges and competitors in open tournaments. As a result, they tend to look for TKD forms. But if you go to an "open" tournament sponsored by an Isshin ryu school I'm acquainted with, there's a really good chance that you'll get lots of Isshin ryu judges...

When I judge in an open tournament, I look for whether the competitor seems to know the form (no obvious mistakes, no hesitation, etc.) Then I look at whether they seem to understand the form that they're showing; are they blocking and striking in accord with each other, etc. and are they generating power. Finally, I end up looking at the "drama" in the form. But... in reality, whether it's an open or private tournament -- a good forms competitor is going to need to draw me into that form, and do so in the first few moves.

 

[Blindside]

I don't think it's the technical aspect which is the problem, but the... um, behavioral part. The instructor doesn't want the kids using each other as uke, willingly or (more likely) unwillingly, when a force multiplier like a six-foot pole is involved. It's bad if a child decides to check out his current skill set on a friend (or otherwise); it's way worse if he does it with with something, like a bo, that allows him to translate a moderately fast arm torque into a really scary angular velocity.

I figure American boys by this age have already been trained in baseball, so if they were going to try to really hit each othe with a stick, they've already got the skills.

Lamont

 

[exile]

I figure American boys by this age have already been trained in baseball, so if they were going to try to really hit each othe with a stick, they've already got the skills.

Lamont

That might have been true geneneration or two ago, but I wonder I about it now... you virtually never see kids around here, in Heartland America, playing baseball. It's true—the only baseball I actually see anyone play is when their parents' softball leagues get together. The kids who once were playing baseball are turning out on Sundays for their soccer league matches... it's a real sea change in sports participation in the US.

 

[Blindside]

That might have been true geneneration or two ago, but I wonder I about it now... you virtually never see kids around here, in Heartland America, playing baseball. It's true—the only baseball I actually see anyone play is when their parents' softball leagues get together. The kids who once were playing baseball are turning out on Sundays for their soccer league matches... it's a real sea change in sports participation in the US.

I live in a pretty small town, but soccer is pretty low on the list of sports around here. We probably lose a quarter of the class when the baseball leagues start up, we lose three when the soccer season start, their dad is French.

Lamont

 

[exile]

I live in a pretty small town, but soccer is pretty low on the list of sports around here. We probably lose a quarter of the class when the baseball leagues start up, we lose three when the soccer season start, their dad is French.

Lamont

That's interesting... so soccer mania hasn't come to the Rockies yet, eh? It may take a while to get there... around here, I'm not even sure there's an active Little League. And when I was a kid, basically everyone was in Little League, except for a few of us misfits, so a lot has changed in fifty years!

But... in reality, whether it's an open or private tournament -- a good forms competitor is going to need to draw me into that form, and do so in the first few moves.

Another problem with TKD hyungs vs. karate kata: a lot of colored belt hyungs have a kind of relentless symmetry that tends, I suspect, to reinforce the kind of mechanical, steady pacing of the TKD form performances as vs. the Karate performances, so there's less likelihood of your being drawn in, as you put it, at that early stage. Too many hyung performances have that `sausage machine' rhythmic quality, even if they're very good technically.

A clever TKDist, going into an open tournament with a lot of Karate competitors, would probably do well to work on that more syncopated, varying pacing approach so that even the same sequences rotated 180º, as you often get in e.g. the Palgwes, don't have quite the same `feel' as when you did them the first time, on the other side. I think TKD competitors are much more likely to engage the judges' interest if they work on their performances from that angle...

 

[Flying Crane]

Again, thanks for the help and advice with all of this. Ultimately, he does enjoy TKD, I guess the tournament just made us question all of this. It just made TKD seem inferior to Karate.

The one thing he did seem to be interested in though was the weapons aspect of the tournament. His teacher says that he doesn't teach them because he doesn't want them taking that sort of thing to the playground and hurting someone.

That being said, how does he learn weapons if his school doesn't teach them? Is there some unofficial rule that says he can't go to another school for that part of his training? He seemed most interested in the bo, but is 7 too young to train with that, or with weapons in general for that matter?

Thanks everyone!

Maybe at the age of seven, he should just be allowed to train in the school, and don't worry about the other issues. If it becomes clear that he wants to compete, and/or it if becomes clear that he really wants to learn the weapons, then perhaps it will be appropriate to switch schools. But if you and he are both happy with his current school, then don't worry about it and just let him train in the meantime. I think perhaps you are trying to dig too deeply, too soon. Your son is quite young, and is just beginning. Let him learn to walk, before you want him to win the 100 meter high-hurdle sprints

. There doesn't need to be any hurry with this, especially at his age.

You might want to talk more with the instructor, and make sure you are very clear on what he sees as the primary focus of his school. If he wishes to instill quality self-defense skills in his students, that can often be counter to competition. They are NOT the same thing. It can certainly be possible to be involved in both, but it just may be that this instructor feels the self-defense aspect is more important than competition, and so that is where he wishes to focus his energy. If your son is happy with this, then let it be. If your son really wants to compete, then maybe you need to switch schools. But understand that if you train heavily for one, often the other will suffer for it. Your son could become a tournament champion, and have ZERO self defense skills. Or he could be very skilled in self defense that might save his life someday, but be dismal in competition.

 

[exile]

The point FC is raising is an important one, XR. The problem with competition, so far as forms are concerned, is that they emphasize the performance over the content. The two aren't aren't incompatible in principle, but in practice they don't fit well together at all. The performance of forms, as emphasized in some of the preceding posts, hinges on execution style issues—how poised, how self-confident, how dramatic. But understanding the content of forms involves extracting the often very brutal self-defense content from them and training that content with at least reasonably resisting partners. There's nothing pretty or fluid or any of the other `performance' virtues about this kind of practice; it's more like a simulated street attack where the closer the simulation approaches the real thing, the better the training. The mindsets for the two approaches to forms are utterly different, and, I can't help thinking, pretty antagonistic to each other: forms as an end in themselves vs. forms as a means to a very different end; forms as expressive, fluid and dramatically appealing, vs forms as the cold, hard record of techniques for breaking bones, inducing massive soft-tissue trauma and very dangerous upper-body impacts with completely rigid ground surfaces. As FC notes, focus on one intensely and you risk making the other something... well, alien. For me, that's fine: I'm not interested in forms as martial choreography, but as a guide to effective CQ defensive strategy and tactics. But it's an unusual school that emphasizes the analysis skills that enable you to extract the latter sort of information from kata or hyungs.

That's why in my earlier posts I had some suggestions about performance style that might make the hyungs more appealing to karateka judges. If you're going to approach forms competitively, then that kind of consideration could be quite important. But if you view your MA as potentially realistic SD system, then it's a good idea to think of kata not as a script to be performed, but as an instruction set for disabling an untrained but dangerously violent attacker.

 

[jks9199]

Another problem with TKD hyungs vs. karate kata: a lot of colored belt hyungs have a kind of relentless symmetry that tends, I suspect, to reinforce the kind of mechanical, steady pacing of the TKD form performances as vs. the Karate performances, so there's less likelihood of your being drawn in, as you put it, at that early stage. Too many hyung performances have that `sausage machine' rhythmic quality, even if they're very good technically.

A clever TKDist, going into an open tournament with a lot of Karate competitors, would probably do well to work on that more syncopated, varying pacing approach so that even the same sequences rotated 180º, as you often get in e.g. the Palgwes, don't have quite the same `feel' as when you did them the first time, on the other side. I think TKD competitors are much more likely to engage the judges' interest if they work on their performances from that angle...

I know what you're referring to -- or at least think I do. But what I'm meaning when I say "drawn into" is that I want to see something, quickly, that's going to hook my attention into that form, and that makes me think that the person doing it is really fighting someone that I just can't see. I've seen way too many flashy forms, with dazzling movements and acrobatics... but the performer was just going through motions. They lacked that essential element of focus. Varying rythm definitely helps... but there's more to it. I've seen forms done very slowly, but so clearly that you couldn't help but visualize the victim in the performer's hands. That focus pulls you into and along the form as you're watching and judging. Without it -- especially if it's the 8th or 9th time that day you've seen someone do that form! -- it's hard to really maintain your focus and judge on more than the first and last couple of movements... Or at least I think so!

 

[Marginal]

The one thing he did seem to be interested in though was the weapons aspect of the tournament. His teacher says that he doesn't teach them because he doesn't want them taking that sort of thing to the playground and hurting someone.

Could be that he just doesn't know much about weapons himself and adding them to the classes would be irresposnsible for a whole other host of reasons.

That comes through especially in open karate competitions that feature freestyle "forms". There's little of martial value being presented in these kinds of demonstrations. The only idea is to look like Jet Li. You end up with a bunch of kids floundering around to the strains of Mortal Kombat's soundtrack while they do wildly impractical stuff.

That's great and all, but some times substance is a better thing to have under your belt.

 

[fastfist1]

Marginal-

You said exactly what I was thinking but hadn't inclused in my comments. I'm still new here and am trying to figure out how 'authentic" these discussions are.

I also agree with Exile (and similar posters) that there are two ways to practice and execute kata/forms. For show (i,e, tournament) and for self defense/combat. My 26 years of MA experience is heavy in the combat aspect. However, my 10 year old daughter currently is attending a school that generally de-emphasizes combat in favor of tournament competition. When she and I work out together I try to focus more on the defensive applications of her art. I expect that at some point (when she tires of the rush of tournament competition) the combat/self defense aspect will be all we focus on.

 

[Flying Crane]

The problem with competition, so far as forms are concerned, is that they emphasize the performance over the content. The two aren't aren't incompatible in principle, but in practice they don't fit well together at all.

Aye, good points in this post. I hope I'm not just being repetitious, but I'll add another thought or two.

First, understand that kata was never meant to be a performance art or competition vehicle. Many people today seem to look at it that way, but that's definitely NOT was it was originally intended to be. Kata was sort of the repository of real fighting techniques found within a system's curriculum. Learn the kata, and you have learned the curriculum of the system. And as Exile points out, these fighting techniques are often brutal, and seldom beautiful. I would go so far as to suggest that in past generations, kata was probably held as something of a secret. After all, it is the textbook of your fighting method. If you go around showing off your kata, your enemies might figure out what you know, and figure out how to defeat you.

It is a more recent phenomenon, along with the advent of tournaments where people compete for a plastic trophy painted to look like gold, where kata became a focus of performance and competition. People started showing off their kata, in hopes of earning the praise of the judges, so they can take the trophy home. It soon escalated into a "One-Upmanship" competition. Many traditional kata are not very pretty, or interesting to watch, if you don't happen to already understand it thoroughly. Again, the old masters who developed them never intended them to take center stage in a performance or competition. They didn't give a rat's butt about impressing a judge with "performance". They only cared that the kata contained a log of their effective techniques.

And it's even more complicated when a judge who has experience in Style A, tried to judge a performance by a competitor, who has experience in Style B. They often just don't know what they are looking at.

So then, the competitor tries to incorporate elements remeniscient of Style A into his kata, in order to score better with the judge who knows Style A. But in doing so, he has probably compromised the integrity of the fighting techniques in his kata, because those elements of Style A don't belong in his kata from Style B.

And then it got even worse. In about the early 1980s, a phenomenon began to develop wherein people developed their own "creative" kata. The purpose of these kata was only for competition, impress the judges and the spectators. Fighting technique was freely compromised in favor of flash, glamour, and outlandish nonsense that would actually get you killed if you tried to do it in a real self-defense situation. This is where the arts have become purely performance, and have actually split from the traditional fighting arts. Some of these competitors are amazing athletes, but like I stated earlier, they are most definitely NOT doing a real fighting art. They are champions of showboating.

So you can still go to a tournament and compete in the traditional kata. But there are a lot of influences in competition that want to twist and buckle and change kata into something that it was never meant to be. So if your son wants to compete, that is certainly a legitimate avenue within martial arts that he can travel down, but he may be abandoning all practice of the real fighting arts. It's a road often laden with land mines, and you gotta make sure that is what you want, if you go in that direction.

Some people like to believe that competition is somehow the Grand Ultimate Pinnacle of your training. I personally don't believe that in the least. Competition can be fun. It's a chance to meet other people, and see what they are doing and it can be interesting to see things that are different from what you are doing. Just understand what it is, and don't lose perspective.

 

[IcemanSK]

Aye, good points in this post. I hope I'm not just being repetitious, but I'll add another thought or two.

First, understand that kata was never meant to be a performance art or competition vehicle. Many people today seem to look at it that way, but that's definitely NOT was it was originally intended to be. Kata was sort of the repository of real fighting techniques found within a system's curriculum. Learn the kata, and you have learned the curriculum of the system. And as Exile points out, these fighting techniques are often brutal, and seldom beautiful. I would go so far as to suggest that in past generations, kata was probably held as something of a secret. After all, it is the textbook of your fighting method. If you go around showing off your kata, your enemies might figure out what you know, and figure out how to defeat you.

It is a more recent phenomenon, along with the advent of tournaments where people compete for a plastic trophy painted to look like gold, where kata became a focus of performance and competition. People started showing off their kata, in hopes of earning the praise of the judges, so they can take the trophy home. It soon escalated into a "One-Upmanship" competition. Many traditional kata are not very pretty, or interesting to watch, if you don't happen to already understand it thoroughly. Again, the old masters who developed them never intended them to take center stage in a performance or competition. They didn't give a rat's butt about impressing a judge with "performance". They only cared that the kata contained a log of their effective techniques.

And it's even more complicated when a judge who has experience in Style A, tried to judge a performance by a competitor, who has experience in Style B. They often just don't know what they are looking at.

So then, the competitor tries to incorporate elements remeniscient of Style A into his kata, in order to score better with the judge who knows Style A. But in doing so, he has probably compromised the integrity of the fighting techniques in his kata, because those elements of Style A don't belong in his kata from Style B.

And then it got even worse. In about the early 1980s, a phenomenon began to develop wherein people developed their own "creative" kata. The purpose of these kata was only for competition, impress the judges and the spectators. Fighting technique was freely compromised in favor of flash, glamour, and outlandish nonsense that would actually get you killed if you tried to do it in a real self-defense situation. This is where the arts have become purely performance, and have actually split from the traditional fighting arts. Some of these competitors are amazing athletes, but like I stated earlier, they are most definitely NOT doing a real fighting art. They are champions of showboating.

So you can still go to a tournament and compete in the traditional kata. But there are a lot of influences in competition that want to twist and buckle and change kata into something that it was never meant to be. So if your son wants to compete, that is certainly a legitimate avenue within martial arts that he can travel down, but he may be abandoning all practice of the real fighting arts. It's a road often laden with land mines, and you gotta make sure that is what you want, if you go in that direction.

Some people like to believe that competition is somehow the Grand Ultimate Pinnacle of your training. I personally don't believe that in the least. Competition can be fun. It's a chance to meet other people, and see what they are doing and it can be interesting to see things that are different from what you are doing. Just understand what it is, and don't lose perspective.

I have to agree with both FC & exile, here...there are 2 ways of doing forms. A traditional way: keeping in mind SD boon hae (bunkai for our Japanese-minded friends) & a flashy way designed to "one up" the next competitor. They have certainly come a long way with the later in the last 15 years. I can't say it's all bad: it certainly draws out the incredible athleticism of the performers.

I was not impressed at all with these folks as MA-ists until I met Daniel Sterling. Daniel is a young (28, I think) multi-world title holding champion in "open-style" forms. I met him at the ational conference of the TKD organization he & I belong to. We are a traditional TKD organization, but are branching out into the XMA-type styles. In his seminar, Daniel impressed over & over that if our fundamentals aren't good, neither would our "flash-style" forms. For Daniel, anyway, good technique & good boon hae are essential to this type of forms competition. I wish it were true for everyone.

 

[jks9199]

First, understand that kata was never meant to be a performance art or competition vehicle. Many people today seem to look at it that way, but that's definitely NOT was it was originally intended to be. Kata was sort of the repository of real fighting techniques found within a system's curriculum. Learn the kata, and you have learned the curriculum of the system. And as Exile points out, these fighting techniques are often brutal, and seldom beautiful. I would go so far as to suggest that in past generations, kata was probably held as something of a secret. After all, it is the textbook of your fighting method. If you go around showing off your kata, your enemies might figure out what you know, and figure out how to defeat you.

I have a slight difference of opinion...

Various kata were created for various purposes. Some kata were created to teach and embody the proven tactics and strategies of a martial system. Others were created simply as tools for solo exercise. Some were created to demonstrate their style, or to memorialize an event, or otherwise for "show." One example of this would be the ram muay that thai boxers perform; another, Western example would be the various manuals of arms for the rifle or close order drill & parade.

The difference between these last and many of the invented kata used in creative competition today is that they were grounded in combat reality. Yes, even military marching once had it's place on the battlefield. Many of those creating these flashy "original" kata today don't have that real basis... and it shows. They're incredibly athletic, fantastic to watch... but they aren't "real."

 

[exile]

First of all, I'm really blown away by the sharpness of the MA understanding revealed in this thread—this is one of the shrewdest series of posts I can recall since I started MT. Everyone is coming at some basic (and all too often overlooked) truths about kata from different angles.

I know what you're referring to -- or at least think I do. But what I'm meaning when I say "drawn into" is that I want to see something, quickly, that's going to hook my attention into that form, and that makes me think that the person doing it is really fighting someone that I just can't see. I've seen way too many flashy forms, with dazzling movements and acrobatics... but the performer was just going through motions. They lacked that essential element of focus. Varying rythm definitely helps... but there's more to it. I've seen forms done very slowly, but so clearly that you couldn't help but visualize the victim in the performer's hands. That focus pulls you into and along the form as you're watching and judging. Without it -- especially if it's the 8th or 9th time that day you've seen someone do that form! -- it's hard to really maintain your focus and judge on more than the first and last couple of movements... Or at least I think so!

It's very interesting that you put it like this, because it captures something I've long believed: that when you perform katas/hyungs as part of your workout, you should be performing them according to their combat applications. That is, you should be doing not just the movements but the moves—seeing the down block you're doing as say a hammerfist strike to the trapped assailant's forcibly lowered head, or that pivot not just as a 180º turn, but as the crucial rotation of a well-executed throw. And what you're saying, jks, is that as a judge you're looking for some signs of combat understanding from the contestant. Not ballet-perfect fluidity and balance, but evidence that the movements being carried out are being visualized as parts of a realistically imagined combat event that the defender is engaged in. If this were more generally the case with tournament judges, it would I think have a tremendously beneficial effect on the MAs in general: people would have to think about forms as guides to strategic and tactical aspects of actual combat. Unfortunately, from what I've seen of tournament judging, you're very much in the minority here. Most judging seems to look for technical competence plus dramatic effect, rather than martial insight into the way forms can be insightfully applied for CQ self-defense. That may change up the line; I hope so...

That comes through especially in open karate competitions that feature freestyle "forms". There's little of martial value being presented in these kinds of demonstrations. The only idea is to look like Jet Li. You end up with a bunch of kids floundering around to the strains of Mortal Kombat's soundtrack while they do wildly impractical stuff.

That's great and all, but some times substance is a better thing to have under your belt.

The problem is that these kinds of forms have essentially no relation to the practical realities of close-range fighting—the problems that the kata were originally constructed as solutions for. When kids aren't taught the bunkai for kata, or even told that there is such a thing, it's pretty natural that they figure that kata are just skill demos, and pretty tame ones at that—they can come up with way cooler looking movements. So stuff that belongs in skateboard competition gets hauled into the kind of pseudo-kata you're talking about, promoters look at what's happening, see there's an audience and a clientele that they can market to, and presto, you get do-it-yourself kata in XMA-type competitions all over the place. By now, we're so far from self-defense substance, to use your term, that we might as well be looking at a martial ice-dancing event...

My 26 years of MA experience is heavy in the combat aspect. However, my 10 year old daughter currently is attending a school that generally de-emphasizes combat in favor of tournament competition. When she and I work out together I try to focus more on the defensive applications of her art. I expect that at some point (when she tires of the rush of tournament competition) the combat/self defense aspect will be all we focus on.

It's great that you can give her the kind of insight about the SD content of the MAs. It's depressingly true that a lot of TKD schools, and probably an increasing number of karate schools, take tournament sparring and forms choreography as the

First, understand that kata was never meant to be a performance art or competition vehicle. Many people today seem to look at it that way, but that's definitely NOT was it was originally intended to be. Kata was sort of the repository of real fighting techniques found within a system's curriculum. Learn the kata, and you have learned the curriculum of the system. And as Exile points out, these fighting techniques are often brutal, and seldom beautiful. I would go so far as to suggest that in past generations, kata was probably held as something of a secret. After all, it is the textbook of your fighting method. If you go around showing off your kata, your enemies might figure out what you know, and figure out how to defeat you.

I think the secrecy aspect was extremely important, to an extent that we have a hard time imagining these days. Kata weren't just compressed knowledge, but privileged knowledge, that only masters and their most trusted students fully understood; take a look at Gennosuke Higaki's new book Hidden Karate: the True Bunkai for the Heian Katas and Naihanchi for some eye-opening historical observations on this point. Higaki's own master, Shozan Kubota, was exposed to bunkai by Funakoshi that the latter was not supposed to share with any of his Japanese students. He seems to have deviated from this `gentlemen's agreement' with his fellow Okinawan karateka in a few cases, but mostly what Higaki calls `the secret pact', an understanding shared by the Okinawan expats with their own masters back on the island, was honored.

It is a more recent phenomenon, along with the advent of tournaments where people compete for a plastic trophy painted to look like gold, where kata became a focus of performance and competition. People started showing off their kata, in hopes of earning the praise of the judges, so they can take the trophy home. It soon escalated into a "One-Upmanship" competition. Many traditional kata are not very pretty, or interesting to watch, if you don't happen to already understand it thoroughly. Again, the old masters who developed them never intended them to take center stage in a performance or competition. They didn't give a rat's butt about impressing a judge with "performance". They only cared that the kata contained a log of their effective techniques.

Very nice way to put it! That's exactly what kata were, and still are.

... In about the early 1980s, a phenomenon began to develop wherein people developed their own "creative" kata. The purpose of these kata was only for competition, impress the judges and the spectators. Fighting technique was freely compromised in favor of flash, glamour, and outlandish nonsense that would actually get you killed if you tried to do it in a real self-defense situation. This is where the arts have become purely performance, and have actually split from the traditional fighting arts. Some of these competitors are amazing athletes, but like I stated earlier, they are most definitely NOT doing a real fighting art. They are champions of showboating.

So you can still go to a tournament and compete in the traditional kata. But there are a lot of influences in competition that want to twist and buckle and change kata into something that it was never meant to be. So if your son wants to compete, that is certainly a legitimate avenue within martial arts that he can travel down, but he may be abandoning all practice of the real fighting arts. It's a road often laden with land mines, and you gotta make sure that is what you want, if you go in that direction.

Some people like to believe that competition is somehow the Grand Ultimate Pinnacle of your training. I personally don't believe that in the least. Competition can be fun. It's a chance to meet other people, and see what they are doing and it can be interesting to see things that are different from what you are doing. Just understand what it is, and don't lose perspective.

Excellent advice and a very good perspective on competition. The problem with competition is, I think, our built-in inclination to think that it weeds out lesser quality and leaves only the best. Not so: what competition elevates depends pretty much entirely on the preconceptions built into the rules of the competition in the first place. MA competitions very clearly exclude practical utility, the very reason these arts came into being in the first place, and elevate a kind of aritificial stylized competition criterion which has no organic connection to the kind of thing kata actually are—records, or `logs', as you say, of effective combat technique. This kind of case shows that competition doesn't reward superior quality, but rather those performances which most reflect the assumptions behind the competition scoring system.

I have to agree with both FC & exile, here...there are 2 ways of doing forms. A traditional way: keeping in mind SD boon hae (bunkai for our Japanese-minded friends) & a flashy way designed to "one up" the next competitor. They have certainly come a long way with the later in the last 15 years. I can't say it's all bad: it certainly draws out the incredible athleticism of the performers.

I was not impressed at all with these folks as MA-ists until I met Daniel Sterling. Daniel is a young (28, I think) multi-world title holding champion in "open-style" forms. I met him at the ational conference of the TKD organization he & I belong to. We are a traditional TKD organization, but are branching out into the XMA-type styles. In his seminar, Daniel impressed over & over that if our fundamentals aren't good, neither would our "flash-style" forms. For Daniel, anyway, good technique & good boon hae are essential to this type of forms competition. I wish it were true for everyone.

Again, this seems quite rare, along the lines of jks' judging criteria. Mostly the robustness of the applications associated with a kata are not what competition rewards. If this becomes a common view among XMAists, then it could ultimately have a beneficial effect...

... but as things stand now, it's pretty clear that something is seriously lacking in the way kata are treated in current MA practice. If you look over the threads about the utility or value of kata during the past year on MT, what's striking—to me anyway—is how many folk have just got the basic idea of kata plain wrong, and have no inkling of what they're there for. And to me that means that the fault is in the dojos, dojangs and the rest of the MA educational system. People are inevitably going to knock something that they don't understand, especially given it tends to be presented, packaged and marketed as a kind of artificial choreographed folk dance with vaguely violent movements. Unfortunately, a good deal of the way forms competition works tends to reinforce that impression...

 

[jks9199]

Exile, I'd have thrown some rep your way... but gotta spread the love. I'm not copying the entire post, but I do want to address two points.

First, while I look for some indication of what I'll call combat visualization (and I teach my students that EVERY strike or block should have a target, even in drills and forms), that doesn't excuse poor technique. I'm a demanding judge; I want it all! I want a clue that the performer knows the uses of the form in their focus and where they are putting their attention and emphasis, and I want them to demonstrate solid stances, good technique and principles, and (since several of our forms have key lessons) that they are aware of the meaning of the form tactically, as well.

Second... All too many people are doing forms or kata today as dances; they don't understand that there is something more to them. And competition rewards that sort of thinking and practice too often...

 

[Flying Crane]

In his seminar, Daniel impressed over & over that if our fundamentals aren't good, neither would our "flash-style" forms. For Daniel, anyway, good technique & good boon hae are essential to this type of forms competition. I wish it were true for everyone.

I think the key factor here is that the boon hae must be there. Just having solid technique, all by itself, is not enough. One could have a textbook perfect side kick, for example, but it's no good outside the context of usefulness, which is boon hae. One could develop a very flashy, completely nonsensical kata using very solid and clean technique, but it would still be worthless if it is constructed without consideration for boon hae. Good technique, without an understanding of HOW TO USE IT only gets you partway there.

So when I see a guy doing a kata where he extends his leg into a roundhouse kick seven feet in the air, and he just hops in a circle throwing that roundhouse kick to all points on the compass without putting his foot down, well that doesn't impress me. He's got amazing flexibility and balance, and a very clean roundhouse kick, but I cannot imagine any usefulness for that sequence. No boon hae, no bunkai, no usefulness for the movement. So even tho the technique itself is strong, and he has good athletic ability, it's still useless flash.

 

[exile]

So even tho the technique itself is strong, and he has good athletic ability, it's still useless flash.

Exactly, and that's the bottom line: the technique, no matter how skillful and professionally executed, has to make combat sense.

If you've parleyed a wristlock into an arm pin, does it make any sense to then shift your weight to the back leg, and execute a flawless knifehand strike while keeping the assailant's arm anchored?? No, because in moving your weight back, instead of into the pin and down, you've in effect released the pin prematurely and given up a terrific shot at bringing the attacker to the ground with a spear elbow strike–hammerfist sequence that strikes the attacker's lowered face and temple in very rapid succession. It makes much more sense to move your weight into the pin, forcing the attacker's upper low to relieve the pressure on the joint. Take the pressure off the pin and you run the risk of him releasing his wrist, and now you're back where you started. There's a logic to why things happen in combat when, and the front stance that kata and hyungs invariably display corresponding to this point in the proceedings indicate that the kata creators want you to take advange of the pin and get every last possible combat advantage of it: hence the projection of weight forward which front stances are kata-code for.

It's like in chess: a prosaic forced mate in five moves is judged by sophisticated players as way better than a spectacular six move series of sacrifices that leave you with a pawn on the seventh rank which will queen and then hunt your opponent's king down in another four moves or so. The point is to end the game in victory as soon as possible. The prettiest, most daring combination in the world which doesn't do that is pointless, in terms of the combat logic of chess. Same with any of the MAs...

 

[Tez3]

Ah bliss! A really interesting, well thought out and argued thread!

I hope the OP has now got a glimpse of the depth of our martial arts and of the thoughtful people who practice MA!

However, while the discussion is fascinating and well worth following can I point out that for a 7 year old this depth of knowledge is for, hopefully, the future for him. At his age he should be enjoying his martial arts, getting a good foundation in his basics, gaining in confidence and improving his techniques. If he competes in anything it should be done with serious techniques but with a light heart. Kata comps should be fun and a chance to meet like minded people. Performing them in public and on his own in class will certainly improve his confidence.

Flying Crane, I remember the first time, years ago, I saw a demo kata where the girl did the very high kick you mentioned, her legs were in a vertical line and I thought that was so depressing that I couldn't ever do that as I was so stiff by comparision. My instructor pointed out however, that one of my low Thai kicks to her thigh would bring her crashing down, or I could shoot and take her down or...well you can add the rest lol! As you said, it was flash and I was dazzled for a little while until the truth was pointed out to me! (that sounds evangelical doesn't it!).

Can I point out too that I said early in the thread that Exile could explain this so well! And I was right!

 

[Flying Crane]

However, while the discussion is fascinating and well worth following can I point out that for a 7 year old this depth of knowledge is for, hopefully, the future for him. At his age he should be enjoying his martial arts, getting a good foundation in his basics, gaining in confidence and improving his techniques. If he competes in anything it should be done with serious techniques but with a light heart. Kata comps should be fun and a chance to meet like minded people. Performing them in public and on his own in class will certainly improve his confidence.

very good points. But for the parent of the child who is interested in having the child compete, it's plenty good food for thought.

Flying Crane, I remember the first time, years ago, I saw a demo kata where the girl did the very high kick you mentioned, her legs were in a vertical line and I thought that was so depressing that I couldn't ever do that as I was so stiff by comparision. My instructor pointed out however, that one of my low Thai kicks to her thigh would bring her crashing down, or I could shoot and take her down or...well you can add the rest lol! As you said, it was flash and I was dazzled for a little while until the truth was pointed out to me!

bull's-eye. I think any one who sticks with the martial arts long enough will go thru this. In the beginning, we are awed by what we see. Then, as we progress, it becomes harder and harder to impress us. And those things that DO impress us are often not what we might have expected back in the early days.

Can I point out too that I said early in the thread that Exile could explain this so well! And I was right!

ah, well, Exile seems to possess the drive and curiosity to dig for the answers to these issues, and is gifted with the skills to express what he has found. I've come to expect no less from him.