Comparing WC with russian Systema

[Yoshiyahu]

Would you say the best to perfect your style so that it has all the answers is by fighting people of as many different styles and skill levels as you can. If you have Wing Chun and BJJ experience. Would that prepare you to fight a Tiger or Crane fighter? If you cross train TKD and Boxing along with BJJ will you become well rounded enough to defeat a Bak Mei fighter. Or is it really perfecting your art by fighting and adapting what you learn to sparring and challenging other fighters. Is this contact experience is what transforms your art into an Art that has the answers. Or is cross training each style you may come across the answer.


As for cross training personally I see it as advantage. But I totally disagree with you guys reasoning for it. I cross train for a different reason. Not to know what the other guy is doing. In fact once you get to a certain level in just about any art. You will know what others are doing from their art just from watching or feeling them. But Cross training actually allows you to have more techniques an utilize confusion to an opponent who attempts to adapt your style. If you spar like a wrestler your opponent will try to out strike you. if you switch to wing chun he will try to keep his distance. Than switch to boxing or TKD or Long fist. So Inside outside or on the ground you terrorize your opponent. This is the reason to me for cross training. Not to gain some knowledge that can be gain in your art. But to be able to confuse your opponent and eliminate his strategy. When he comfortable with me boxing i usually switch to WC. He may think at first this guy is doing boxing or kick boxing...Then here comes the WC...

I think WC is a great art. I also think that any art that specialises at any field and has existed over a longer period of time has more or less perfected what they want to do. For example: I think that boxing is pretty much the best form of fighting when only fists are allowed and when you have 10ounch gloves on your hand, I also belive that an kicking art such as Tea Kwon Do has pretty much done the best it can with leg attacks and perfecting the art of kicking(you can't do much more with a leg), I also belive that an art like Aikido(which I havent trained) which I understand as an art that wants to control an opponent more than hurt him(allthough my brother who trains it tells me it very similar and WC and also has very vicious attacks so who knows) has pretty much perfect the art of controling an opponent. WC for example I belive strives to find the perfect balance(between power and speed, balance mobility, defence and offense). I would say that most arts that specialise in what they do for an extended period of time have something useful to say but it's just diffrent aproaches to the same thing in the end.

I'm saying all this becouse a lot of people WC feel that an Aikido approach to fighting is wrong or not as efficient as WC approach. Or similar with other arts. But I think that any art that specialises has something useful to contribute. If your a WC guy like me and you want to complement you groundfighting, go train in BJJ or something and if you grasped the concepts of WC and understand them it shouldnt be to difficult to modify those few sport/control/not WC aspects to your WC game.

So as a conlusion I would say that even tho WC principals are great, a human lifespan is to sort for you to figure out every aspect of fighting by yourself. So other arts can help. A lot in my opinion. As other have said: in the very worst you know what to suspect from you attacker from that style. Now if your style allready has the best answers to everything then great! Don't train anything else. But I think if you truly belive that your misguided becouse nothing a man creates is ideal or absolute so we can allways lear new things.

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

I think that in that essey of mine you missed my point that basicly was: training other arts can help you understand your art better.

I could write an essey to respond to your question and an essey on your statement but I feel that jarrods post from another thread ilustrates it much better:

styles are somewhat artifical boundries set on a collection of techniques. fighting is fighting, & effective principles are universal. all styles have the same basic principles; primarily it is just the terminology & emphasis that changes.

a martial artist should be encouraged to develop their own personal style to some extent. once they do that, any art can be theirs with proper training. i'll use myself as an example:

when i box, i like to bore in; i use direct footwork coupled with circular blocks & head movement to get infront of my opponent, uproot him, then hit him.

when i do judo, i use footwork & gripping to get inside my opponent, uproot him, & throw him.

when i do jujitsu, i use circular motions with my hands & legs to get close to my opponent, then isolate a limb & attack it. isolating a limb is the same as uprooting for all intents in purposes, you're just uprooting an arm or a leg instead of a whole body.

so that's my personal style. i like to get close & destroy balance. whatever attack i do once i get there is subjective. bruce lee once said a punch is just a punch, a kick is just a kick. i think if you have a good understanding of cross training, then an attack is just an attack, a defense is just a defense.

jf
Quote:
i think that it is important to have a base art. often the reason people have difficulties with crosstraining is because they are thinking of the different arts as truly different, rather than individual expressions of the same idea. you can't see the similarities in principles if you don't even understand the principles of the art you're coming from. now i don't think that means you can't study two arts at once as a beginner, but one of them should get most of your attention.

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Hey WC community, I would love to hear from you about how Systema look s to you and if you see any similarties or you feel it's a totaly difrent approach. Check Si-Jes any my videos for consult.

 

[Xue Sheng]

You know... I read through all this again and I mean no offense to anyone but what exactly is the point of this? What do you hope to achieve?

Sorry but I also just don’t get the asking the WC community what they think as to if it is similar or totally different... that is unless you have a Systema person that trained Wing Chun or a Wing Chun person that trained Systema.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Well I have a question?

Does Systema follow the Center Line theory?(Attack and Defend Center line)

Does it make us of Tan Sau,Fook Sau and Bong Sau?

Does Systema also utilize Linear line of Attacks?

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

You know... I read through all this again and I mean no offense to anyone but what exactly is the point of this? What do you hope to achieve?

Sorry but I also just don’t get the asking the WC community what they think as to if it is similar or totally different... that is unless you have a Systema person that trained Wing Chun or a Wing Chun person that trained Systema.

No offense taken! Well a point...no real point just a thread like any other. Yea I hoped there be more people with Systema and WC experience on such a big forum but... Or people just don't have time to answer my silly questions and they think it's a stupid thread. I would still love to hear from that Brian guy? Got the imprression he could answer a lot of my questions! About that question being pointless... Maybe so, but I think that from sll of those videos a WC guy with enough experience can figure out if theres any similarties or not. Just depends on their definitions and opennes (is that a word ) of WC principals.

But please everybody, ask any questions about Systema or WC here. I just posted some that I would like answers too(stupid questions or not).

 

[dungeonworks]

You know... I read through all this again and I mean no offense to anyone but what exactly is the point of this? What do you hope to achieve?

Sorry but I also just don’t get the asking the WC community what they think as to if it is similar or totally different... that is unless you have a Systema person that trained Wing Chun or a Wing Chun person that trained Systema.

I think Eru just wants to see if there are any similarities between the two arts after watching a set of Systema DVD's. Asking WC/WT people is a good start I would think. From what I seen on YouTube (take with grain of salt), it almost looks like "Wing Krav Chun Maga"....but since Systema is nearly as old as Wing Chun and 8 times older than Krav Maga that is said with sarcasm.

Anyways, the Systema sensitivity to knife attacks and the fact they have sensitivity drills in their curriculum would be enough to make me wonder and compare since sensitivity training is not that common from my understanding in most all other arts. They have it without speciffically training it, but Wing Chun and Systema actually have drills and curriculum for it.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Was Systema created by Chinese?

Does Systema have Forms and historical History?

Are there any western knife fighting arts that are better than systema?

I think Eru just wants to see if there are any similarities between the two arts after watching a set of Systema DVD's. Asking WC/WT people is a good start I would think. From what I seen on YouTube (take with grain of salt), it almost looks like "Wing Krav Chun Maga"....but since Systema is nearly as old as Wing Chun and 8 times older than Krav Maga that is said with sarcasm.

Anyways, the Systema sensitivity to knife attacks and the fact they have sensitivity drills in their curriculum would be enough to make me wonder and compare since sensitivity training is not that common from my understanding in most all other arts. They have it without speciffically training it, but Wing Chun and Systema actually have drills and curriculum for it.

 

[Xue Sheng]

No offense taken! Well a point...no real point just a thread like any other. Yea I hoped there be more people with Systema and WC experience on such a big forum but... Or people just don't have time to answer my silly questions and they think it's a stupid thread. I would still love to hear from that Brian guy? Got the imprression he could answer a lot of my questions! About that question being pointless... Maybe so, but I think that from sll of those videos a WC guy with enough experience can figure out if theres any similarties or not. Just depends on their definitions and opennes (is that a word ) of WC principals.

But please everybody, ask any questions about Systema or WC here. I just posted some that I would like answers too(stupid questions or not).

There are a few Systema people on MT but I do not believe they do not do Wing Chun so it is likely have little interest in the thread but only time will tell.

 

[dungeonworks]

Was Systema created by Chinese?

Does Systema have Forms and historical History?

Are there any western knife fighting arts that are better than systema?

1. No, and nobody claimed it did. Just noted their may be some similarity...which is not saying it is exactly the same.
2. I don't think so, but not sure. I doubt it. Forms are not the be all/end all of fighting or training, and some styles think they are useless. (Obviusly they are HUGELY important to Wing Chun so don't take that as my opinion)
3. I don't know.
   

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Was Systema created by Chinese?

Does Systema have Forms and historical History?

Are there any western knife fighting arts that are better than systema?

Refer to the title of the thread for clarifications, grasshoper Ok for real... No it wasn't created by chinese but as dungeonworks mentioned Systema is a Russian equivilant of Kung fu so I would guess that similarly as in China you have quite a palette of you might call Systema. But for the sake of discussion I refer to the martial arts of Rybakov and Kadochnikov as Systema(and these ones are the only ones I hoped to discus here).

For the second question I can't say anything for sure. But it looks like to me that this is that kind of martial art that doesn't have forms or some pre-set techniques. Thats way I noted the JKDish WC analogy in my first post. As allways I could be wrong.

About the last question... I think that an objective answer on that is pretty much imposible! I mean what is the best? But to me this looks one of the best. Besides, what do you mean in the West? I would love to be corrected but I haven't heard of any knife martial art originating in the West. You got JKD thats argubly American and as thought by Inosanto incorporates Philipinian martial art for knife defence. Mostly if you want good knife defence it seems you need to look at the East: Pekita tirsia kali, arnis, escrima, systema, krav maga etc.

Hope someone with acctual Systema experience comes and answers your questions better!

 

[Xue Sheng]

Systema

Wing Chun

Read and compare :asian:

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Ha! Thanks! Didn't know theres a Fedor Emelianenko guy that is also clasified as Systema. That should also clarify a some of Yoshis questions. And posibly the questions other WCunners have who don't know Systema.

But I would stil love to hear from somebody who trained Systema. I have lots of questions Any volenteer who I can harass via PM?

 

[Yoshiyahu]

I actually asked some of those questions after I looked at some videos of Systema. Also I previously looked at Systema on wikipedia...I dont see the comparison. For me I am looking at structure. Its like totally different. I see Krav Maga closer to Systema than WC. But thats my opinion...I am woundering why there is a comparison?


To me its comparing apples and oranges they are both fruits but just different colors.

Ha! Thanks! Didn't know theres a Fedor Emelianenko guy that is also clasified as Systema. That should also clarify a some of Yoshis questions. And posibly the questions other WCunners have who don't know Systema.

But I would stil love to hear from somebody who trained Systema. I have lots of questions Any volenteer who I can harass via PM?

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

I was comparing the more on a conceptual level. Core principals instead of techniques alone. It's something I personaly see. I haven't trained and from videos and wikipedia I can't realy compare them. It's something I would have to see/feel/train. Xue was right; a person(I hoped for some when I posted this thread) trained in both would be helpful for such input. Without people experienced in both it's realy hard to discus compare exchange techniques so I guess this thread is kind of a failiure.

About them being apples and oranges.. Have you wathed both videos I posted from begining to end? Some techniques Kadochikov does are exactly the same I seem them thought in most WC schools. He does tansaos, redirection of stronger force, uses his structure etc. Humor me and tell me if you see any similarities between Systema and WC in the first video I posted (

) with 2min 55sec into the video. Check out what he does...

 

[Si-Je]

I actually asked some of those questions after I looked at some videos of Systema. Also I previously looked at Systema on wikipedia...I dont see the comparison. For me I am looking at structure. Its like totally different. I see Krav Maga closer to Systema than WC. But thats my opinion...I am woundering why there is a comparison?


To me its comparing apples and oranges they are both fruits but just different colors.

I see the principles of relaxation and severe sensitivity training a big similarity. As well as the concepts of utilizing natural body movements.

 

[Si-Je]

You know... I read through all this again and I mean no offense to anyone but what exactly is the point of this? What do you hope to achieve?

Sorry but I also just don’t get the asking the WC community what they think as to if it is similar or totally different... that is unless you have a Systema person that trained Wing Chun or a Wing Chun person that trained Systema.

I was thinking since everyone likes to crosstrain so much, of looking to styles that would complement my WC training instead of conflicting. Folks like to compare and contrast BJJ and WC/WT, why not Systema?

Asking the WC community because simply we're WC and would like to know what other WCunners think about it, if they know, if anyone here has trainined in Systema.
I thought about going to the Systema section and asking this, but I didn't want to offend in my ignorance of the art just because I see similarities in principle and concept. Not all, just a couple similarities.

I personally, may be hoping to achieve whether or not I wish to pursue training in Systema to work with my WC/WT.
I've trained a small bit of Zapota from another friend and teacher last year, but not enought to complement or put into my fighting style. I would prefer Zapota because I know more about it, but I'm absolutely facinated with Systema's sensitivity, simplicity, and relaxed and natural movements. And think it would mesh better with my WC/WT than that of Zapota.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Mostly all MA's deal with relaxation once you reach black belt grading...Also sensitivity is apart most striking arts once you go past blackbelt level...BJJ also deals with relaxation and severe sensitivity...As well as many other grappling arts...Also Tai Chi is about Sensitivity and Relaxation and redirecting force!!!!


So in reality just about all arts can be compared in this aspect?


eh?

I could be wrong but i doubt any systema guys study WC? I could be wrong?

I personally believe judo and Karate would be more beneficial to WC.

http://www.body-knowledge.com/basic-systema/

Humor me and tell me if you see any similarities between Systema and WC in the first video I posted (

) with 2min 55sec into the video. Check out what he does...

Watching the video reminds me of combination of Karate,Aikido, Tai Chi Push Hands and slow movements and Combative Arts.

My personal opinion is that systema lacks a root or stable stable stance. There strikes sloppy and unbalanced. The throws and takedowns are nice but can they be applied like that under pressure.

The kicks look lousy...


Check this video out

I see the principles of relaxation and severe sensitivity training a big similarity. As well as the concepts of utilizing natural body movements.

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Check this video out

ea, he shows that of a lot. It may look fake or something but when you wath many of his videos and at diffrent speeds you see he is quite good. Shame there isn't the one with his sensitivety against knife attacks demo on youtube. Thats a good one!

Watching the video reminds me of combination of Karate,Aikido, Tai Chi Push Hands and slow movements and Combative Arts.

My personal opinion is that systema lacks a root or stable stable stance. There strikes sloppy and unbalanced. The throws and takedowns are nice but can they be applied like that under pressure.

The kicks look lousy...

Ok.. I can accepts that. But I was positive that any WChunner would see simlutanious attack and defense, tan for redirection and biu tan to the eye as an attac in the techique at 2min 55sec. And as I remember there are quite a few techiques like that demonstrated. I'm not saying it's exactly WC but damn try just for a sec and focus on the similarities and things that would work very welll instead of the diffrences and whats so lousy. Cuz sure, I guess if you look at any video for long enough you can see faults in it. The attacker could attack better, the techniques could be done better etc. And if you watch any video of any master on youtube and look at the comments below you'll see thats true. You can never satisfy everybody. It's funny though how everybody claims that what they train is the best and everything else is second grade... We can't all be right can we? so whats the truth?

 

[Si-Je]

It seems to me that they focus more on deflection rather than hard "blocking", re-direction of the opponent's force, and pretty simoltaneous defense and attack.
Looks like they focus on relaxation right in the outset of training too, and sensitivity.
I like how the guy uses the "oar" in a familiar (to me) dragonpole style of techniques. His stance is smaller as is the "oar" but I think that's in proportion to the size of the oar/weapon. It's not a 9 foot pole so no need for such a wide stance.
Plus it seems that they focus alot on multiple attackers. Love it!
They do much more weapons fighting, and weapon disarms than WC/WT, but it seems that's because it's the art of their military. I really looks like they have fully incorporated a "martial art" to most of the aspects of their military fighting styles.
Whether they are using machine guns, tactics, hand to hand, multiple attackers, disarming an enemy and general philosophy for diffusing an aggessive situation with the concepts of relaxation, flow, deflection, re-direction and simoltaneous defense/"blocking" and attacking.
They even kick as they punch or strike too. It seems that they focus alot on breaking the structure of the opponent too. Reminds me of the Chi stuff Sifu Fung's students do when breaking the foundation and structure of the opponent. It also seems to be a very close quarters fighting style too.
One guy in that video actually did a neck/head takedown much like I've seen and done in WC/WT.
I saw another guy do a Pak sau and tan sau then a latch to bring the guy down, off a straight punch like we do in WC/WT, turn the opponent to their side and palm strike the kidney.
Plus, they don't seem to focus on physical strength or use it very much at all. The instructors seem to be "floppy" relaxed and "limp" in their body positon and stance. Very relaxed.
That's just what I saw in the video:

Thanks for the principles link too, Yoshi. Wish I could find someone here in the DFW area that taught this stuff.