Community sports...

[Andrew Green]

If someone says they are playing one on one basketball with a friend in the driveway and is looking for tips, no one would blink an eye at it.

Or if someone came on and said they where playing street hockey and wanted help with their slap shoot, again, no one would blink an eye.

But if someone comes on here and says they are training by themselves, or with some friends they are promptly told to stop it and find a instructor.

What makes Martial Arts special?

Safety? Martial arts are about hurting people and if done wrong you can get hurt? Yes, so where most of the sports I played in backyards and parks with friends, probably much more so.

Look at something like skateboarding and try to argue it is safer then sparring with gloves and mouthguards or wrestling.

Any sport can be practiced safely, or... not so safely... I don't think Martial arts are intrinsically more dangerous then other sports played and practiced without coaches and officials.

Coaches are no doubt important to other sports, but for the most part, it is the non-coached time that really drives the sport. I mean if Soccer was something that people got told they could not play outside of a class with a coach, requiring a minimum of 10+ years would it have as big of a following world wide?

It seems for sports to really grow, and really thrive, there not only needs to be top coaches and high level televised competition, but before that they need to be played on a community level. Where the kids get together and play the sport outside of a structured environment.

Is community level martial arts possible? why or why not? How?

Can you ever see a day where there is a Optimist (or beer ) Grappling League?

 

[The Lorax]

In my opinion it's because many people are learning MA for self defense and wish it to be practical and effective. If you're training by yourself you will never know if you are doing the technique correctly, or if there is a better way to do it. Most arts contain many techniques and they can be used in many circumstances, many of which are not covered in books and dvds, having an instructor show you is the best way to learn them. I'm sure you can learn an art on your own but it will take a lot more effort and a good training partner, and it will probably take much longer.

This is all just my opinion and I speak with no authority.

 

[green meanie]

In my opinion it's because many people are learning MA for self defense and wish it to be practical and effective.

Good point. I guess what needs to be established right from the start is what are the goals? If someone wants some boxing tips cause they've heard its a great way to get in shape then buying a bag and training solo isn't a bad way to go. But if the person has plans of getting in the ring he really does need to find a good coach and a trainer.

I teach and train primarily for self-defense... but I wouldn't be opposed to joining a co-ed beer drinking grappling league. Andrew?

 

[Fluffy]

If you want to learn SD you need a partner to practice with, not nessesarily an instructor. But if you want to learn propper technique, if you want to learn tradition, if you want to have the camaraderie that comes with groups, if you want to learn how to defend yourself against multiple attackers, if you want to be taken seriously...........find a propperly trained instructor.

-Fluff

 

[Gemini]

If you want to learn SD you need a partner to practice with, not nessesarily an instructor. But if you want to learn propper technique, if you want to learn tradition, if you want to have the camaraderie that comes with groups, if you want to learn how to defend yourself against multiple attackers, if you want to be taken seriously...........find a propperly trained instructor.

-Fluff

I couldn't agree more. If someone wants to shoot hoops in the driveway, sure he may learn to score goals, but not with someone in his face. Same with hockey, baseball...or any other sport for that matter. do you want to keep re-inventing the wheel? Comaraderie, interaction and instruction is important in any endeavor.

Is safety an issue? Of course. Especially when I read the sword/weapons posts.

 

[Andrew Green]

Lots of good skills can be learnt playing basketball with friends in the drive way or at a local court.

Comaraderie can definately develop through pick up games as well, perhaps even more so as the environment is less formal and more social. Street Hockey was a big basis for many of my friendships as a kid.

How about pool? How many people on here have ever taken a pool course? How many shoot pool every now and then?

People to play against is neccessary in martial arts as it is not a solo activity ( you don't fight yourself), same as in other sports.

 

[Eternal Beginner]

Is community level martial arts possible? why or why not? How?

Can you ever see a day where there is a Optimist (or beer ) Grappling League?

I guess I wonder at the question because this is actually how grappling is already spreading...not a futuristic question at all.

Lots of guys already do BJJ (Backyard JiuJitsu) and it is from that they get into more formal training. All of the tournaments and gatherings (seminars and such) are put on at a grass roots level as there are no huge governing bodies regulating it right now.

If it weren't for the few guys who get together to train here and there in backyards, basements, community centres there would be no one looking for the more structured setting and we all know kids already wrestle and have their "fight clubs" around town.

Maybe I missed your point, but the way I interpreted your question it is already happening that way. Guys wandering around training with different clubs and travelling around to roll with new guys is very common. Judo guys training with wrestling guys who train with BJJ guys...happens all of the time.

 

[arnisador]

Someone figured it out for the first time. You'll get further faster and more sdafely with training, but I think many of us started out by goofing around and then worked our way to more formal training.

Anyone who has ever lost to a neighborhood/school bully or street fighter should know know that the home trained or untrained can still be dangerous!

I don't see anything wrong with someone home training...though I think in almost every case they are fooling themselves. But if you had half a dozen dedicated, hard-working people, and an equal number of training knives, you could develop a reasonably effective knife-fighting system after a few years. It happens in prisons all the time, after all.

 

[Fluffy]

You can learn all these sports from a book, but you won't be as good as if you had a mentor. That's part of martial arts, the father figure......the old bald guy in the TV show Kung-Fu or Mr. Miagie (sp).

-Fluff

 

[Andrew Green]

A lot of people in formal classes are fooling themselves just as much

So why is this frowned on so much by the martial arts community? Why the "stop that and get to class, you're wasting your time" attitude? Shouldn't we encourage growth of our sport / hooby at all levels? not just the formal class setting?

 

[Andrew Green]

You can learn all these sports from a book, but you won't be as good as if you had a mentor.

So?

Is that always the point?

I could enroll in a pool playing course, probably get better, but I have no interest in doing that. I still like to play pool though, and will continue to do so.

Mentor is a different word then instructor too, I'm sure there are people that have shown me new things, given me helpful tips, basically been a mentor at some point, even if not for long.

 

[jdinca]

I think it's important to have an instructor from a comments/correction perspective. You could do it on your own but there would be no one but yourself to critique your movement or make corrections. I also feel that training solely at home isn't the best use of your time. Without someone to provide input or feedback, you're going to potentially make the same mistakes more often, or even incorporate them, not knowing any better. If you're unsure about a move or a technique or why it is the way it is, who are you going to ask? The video tape is a one way conversation.

We have several students who only come in for an occasional private lesson. They don't attend the group classes. Their progress is substantially slower than other students, even though they do train at home.

I agree the key question is what do you want out of your training?

 

[Eternal Beginner]

You can learn all these sports from a book, but you won't be as good as if you had a mentor. That's part of martial arts, the father figure......the old bald guy in the TV show Kung-Fu or Mr. Miagie (sp).

-Fluff

I suppose if you don't really care about the quality of the end result you don't need a qualified instructor. Some people are happy singing offkey and knowing how to snowplow down a mountain rather than singing an aria or swooshing down at warp speed.

If you are willing to settle and are purely in it for amusement and fun there is no problem. It is when you want to set yourself up as an expert, charge money or instruct that I think you should have formal training.

Everyone is in MA for their own reasons. Some actually want to be good and some just want to have fun and some want both. Frankly, personally, I think it is difficult, not impossible to be good with exclusively self-training. But it is definitely possible to have a lot of fun messing around with your buddies.

So why not self-train? As long as you are realistic in your aims - go for it. It is better than sitting in front of a TV, computer or video game all day.

 

[Fluffy]

So?

Is that always the point?

I could enroll in a pool playing course, probably get better, but I have no interest in doing that. I still like to play pool though, and will continue to do so.

Mentor is a different word then instructor too, I'm sure there are people that have shown me new things, given me helpful tips, basically been a mentor at some point, even if not for long.

Well, I work at being good at what I do, it matters to me and most I come in contact with. I guess I just can't see beyond the trees on this one...........

-Fluff

 

[IcemanSK]

Pool playing, Basketball & most of the others you bring up aren't physically demanding in the same way as MA. No one goes online & expects to learn gymnastics over the internet or from a book. You need to have someone show you proper technique.

The question is, "how good do ya wanna be?" My buddy Joe can teach me what he learned from his Gracie tape collection. But if he doesn't know anything past the tapes (or if he's doing it right from the tapes) aren't gonna be better than Joe's.

 

[Eternal Beginner]

Pool playing, Basketball & most of the others you bring up aren't physically demanding in the same way as MA. No one goes online & expects to learn gymnastics over the internet or from a book. You need to have someone show you proper technique.

The question is, "how good do ya wanna be?" My buddy Joe can teach me what he learned from his Gracie tape collection. But if he doesn't know anything past the tapes (or if he's doing it right from the tapes) aren't gonna be better than Joe's.

I have trained with guys who are addicted to video learning and they "know" tons of stuff but they can't quite pull it off because they are missing the nuance and practice and experience training with a good instructor can give you.

Because they actually want to be good instead of technique collectors they come in now and put the time in on the mat with the guiding hand of a good instructor to fill in those holes. Of course, if they only wanted to boast of how many techniques they know, they'd be better off spending time in front of their DVD players and TV's. Different goals for different folks.

 

[hongkongfooey]

A lot of people in formal classes are fooling themselves just as much

So why is this frowned on so much by the martial arts community? Why the "stop that and get to class, you're wasting your time" attitude? Shouldn't we encourage growth of our sport / hooby at all levels? not just the formal class setting?

I agree. There are many people who are fooling themselves in a formal martial arts class. How many times have you heard about practicioners freezing up, in a dojo setting, when they are working techniques and don't know what the attack will be?

A group of guys who get together and learn a few kicks, blocks, parries, and strikes, and then work those skills on each other through sparring, can learn how to use those techniques. Somewhere along the lines someone came up with the idea of martial arts, and most likely they made the stuff up as they went along.

 

[IcemanSK]

I have trained with guys who are addicted to video learning and they "know" tons of stuff but they can't quite pull it off because they are missing the nuance and practice and experience training with a good instructor can give you.

Because they actually want to be good instead of technique collectors they come in now and put the time in on the mat with the guiding hand of a good instructor to fill in those holes. Of course, if they only wanted to boast of how many techniques they know, they'd be better off spending time in front of their DVD players and TV's. Different goals for different folks.

Exactly! (More well put than my post!) Folks who train like that understand "the trick" but not the concepts & ideas behind them. Why is that important? So that you can go beyond what you learn in the video.

 

[arnisador]

Pool playing, Basketball & most of the others you bring up aren't physically demanding in the same way as MA.

I bet you'd get a lot of disagreement about that from those who do those sports.

No one goes online & expects to learn gymnastics over the internet or from a book. You need to have someone show you proper technique.

Well...that's a sport, and you're judged on conformity to standards. If we're talking about iaido, you absolutely need an instructor--there's a right way to do it. If you want to box competitively, you need to know the rules.

But if you just want to swordfight, or to streetfight, that's a different matter. You don't need to be a gymnast to teach yourself to tumble; look at people who do Parkour.

 

[arnisador]

A group of guys who get together and learn a few kicks, blocks, parries, and strikes, and then work those skills on each other through sparring, can learn how to use those techniques. Somewhere along the lines someone came up with the idea of martial arts, and most likely they made the stuff up as they went along.

Maybe if that group of guys were to watch a preying mantis fight a tiger...

By the time someone learns calculus, they've mastered mathematics that took around 2500 years to develop. They've done it in their lifetime, and probably before they turned 20! That's amazing. I often remind my students of this fact. Sure, you could reinvent all of arithmetic (including decimal notation), geometry, algebra, and then calculus...but not in one lifetime. As Isaac Newton said, If I have seen further than others it is because I have stood on the shoulders of giants. It's much the same here. You could develop an art as nuanced as Western boxing, or as detailed as Shaolin Kung Fu...but by yourself, from scratch, in a single lifetime? With today's media you'd have a head start on ideas, but figuring out how to make it work, and garnering the real experience that generations of fighters have earned and embedded in their art, is tough. Maybe not as tough as inventing calculus from the observation that 2 rocks plus 2 rocks makes 4 rocks, but tough nonetheless.

But I say again...I know I started out trying to learn stuff from Bong Soo Han's Hapkido book and a Wing Chun book, with a good friend of mine who was also untrained. Failing at that got me into more formal study.