Community Ed Sanchinryu

[arnisador]

Oh, and I do apologize for resurrecting this post yet again, but when I found it on the net while searching for Sanchin-Ryu content, I couldn't help but register and defend the art.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on it. It's good to get an opinion from someone who knows the art from first-hand experience.

 

[tenphse]

Sanchin-J,

No problem bringing this thread back, I have been out of the loop for a while.

It seems to me that a good portion of the people who make critical judgments of Sanchin-Ryu have made early assumptions based upon a single visit or even a lack of understanding of the art in itself.

I agree that many people fit into this category, but not in my case. I spent the time and knew people that were involved with the style for years before I made my decision about the style.

I agree with you also that because a school is new, that it doesn't mean it can't be credible. There are examples of those who took older styles and adapted them, updated them, or took parts and produced a new style. There are a lot of examples in the last 100 years of this occurring. Just as many older styles have lost effectiveness by lack of realism, too much ritualization or traditional movements, or effective sparring.

I also heard "what ever works" over and over again in Sanchin Ryu, downside is, very little was shown that "worked". As far your comment on the dump not working, I will explain a little. As I recall this was a technique that was supposed to unbalance or drop an opponent to the ground. I had been a wrestler and had about 5 years of martial arts experience at the time, so I knew how to be compliant for the demonstration of a move or learning purposes (non-resistant). I was within 10lbs in weight of the black belt and the brown belt had 40lbs pounds on me, and neither could execute the technique effectively on me. I wasn't resisting, could take a fall, it just didn't do anything. If it didn't work there, it wasn't going to in real life.

Please don't get me wrong about TKD either. There are serious issues with the way that it teaches as well. With no close-in work, ground work, or serious punches, and serious issues with the way sparring is conducted. But after my first year in TKD, I had a huge increase in balance, ability to kick, and some experience in applying them due the large number of hours sparring. After my time in Sanchin ryu, I got brief example of working from the ground and trying to keep someone from getting on top of you.

As I posted before, the community aspect is good, downside is that it prevents other styles that, in my opinion could benefit people more, from using schools or facilities. There are a number of styles that have adapted kids programs and can be exercised effectively and realistically (judo, some karate programs, etc) and safely.

 

[punisher73]

I also heard "what ever works" over and over again in Sanchin Ryu, downside is, very little was shown that "worked". As far your comment on the dump not working, I will explain a little. As I recall this was a technique that was supposed to unbalance or drop an opponent to the ground. I had been a wrestler and had about 5 years of martial arts experience at the time, so I knew how to be compliant for the demonstration of a move or learning purposes (non-resistant). I was within 10lbs in weight of the black belt and the brown belt had 40lbs pounds on me, and neither could execute the technique effectively on me. I wasn't resisting, could take a fall, it just didn't do anything. If it didn't work there, it wasn't going to in real life.

So again, because someone has not trained something to make it their own it means the technique is invalid or the style doesn't work. HMMM, little bit of faulty logic. I have used the technique on someone that was "active and resisting" and the technique worked as it was designed to do when someone gives you their center.

So you don't like Sanchinryu, your posts are obvious about that. But, why is your ONLY agenda to come on here and bash it? Your ONLY posts since registering have been to come on here to do just that you have not up till this point contributed to any other discussions or thoughts. You are NOT a productive member of this website and I don't think anyone benefits from your limited slanted view. I am not going to keep spending energy on your negativity or your agenda.

 

[Sanchin-J]

To truly understand Sanchin-Ryu you really need to get in at the ground floor and develop as a new student into the advanced belts. As you begin to explore the advanced content you then begin to see what it is they are doing and why your being taught the way you are.

Sanchin-Ryu encourages you to keep an open mind and to experiment with what you learn. Its about making the art your own and becoming comfortable with it which encorporates the "if it works" mentality I guess. This however doesn't differ that much from the approach used by even some of the more traditional martial arts out there, in any art you choose to study, there's a certain amount of self discovery and experimentation involved in your progression. You'll find certain techniques don't work well for you, while others are great for you.

Sanchin-Ryu starts with basic fundamentals, teaching how to strike with them effectively, how to breath, how to practice fluidity in their use, and then you begin to explore more in depth applications of those fundamentals. Meanwhile, your building muscle memory, gaining confidence, and opening your mind up to new techniques while developing your own particular style of Sanchin-Ryu based upon "What works for you" principles.

Keep in mind, we do have forms and do have advanced combination training, things that we don't allow deviation or personalization of. This isn't to limit the student however, it is to make sure the student is using the fundamentals effectively and properly so that when the time comes, if there is a self defense situation that arises, the transition between techniques is smooth and practiced, and effectively leaves the student at strategic advantage.

I also heard "what ever works" over and over again in Sanchin Ryu, downside is, very little was shown that "worked". As far your comment on the dump not working, I will explain a little. As I recall this was a technique that was supposed to unbalance or drop an opponent to the ground. I had been a wrestler and had about 5 years of martial arts experience at the time, so I knew how to be compliant for the demonstration of a move or learning purposes (non-resistant). I was within 10lbs in weight of the black belt and the brown belt had 40lbs pounds on me, and neither could execute the technique effectively on me. I wasn't resisting, could take a fall, it just didn't do anything. If it didn't work there, it wasn't going to in real life.

I would have to disagree with you on the "very little was shown that "worked" part of your sentence. With proper practice and understanding, any technique shown could feasibly work. As for the technique to unbalance or drop an opponent to the ground, we have several different techniques that can be used for that very thing. It could have been Wansu, San-Ju trip, or any number of others. I won't deny that certain techniques no matter how well you know them and can use them can end up falling short in a real combat situation.

I've had several instances where I've applied a lock and had someone slip out, or have attempted to throw or take down an opponent and had it countered or not work out so well, but that's just how it is for the most part. That's why in Sanchin-Ryu we're encouraged to always be several steps ahead with our strategy in case something like that does happen. I am however curious as to the details regarding that class if you would be interested in private messaging me with them I'd like to investigate this further. At brown and black belt there's really no excuse for not being able to execute those techniques effectively, I'm 110% confident that most if not all of our Purple and Green Belts in the classes where I'm located at could perform those techniques flawlessly. This is of course assuming that the technique being shown was in fact a technique that is being taught at the lower level belts, it could have been that the technique you were included in for demonstration was something recently taught to brown belt or higher for all we know.

As I posted before, the community aspect is good, downside is that it prevents other styles that, in my opinion could benefit people more, from using schools or facilities. There are a number of styles that have adapted kids programs and can be exercised effectively and realistically (judo, some karate programs, etc) and safely.

Actually, I'm not sure where you took the classes at, but I do know that some community programs being offered through certain school districts or community centers are offering a wide variety of martial arts selections. As an example, I was taking (2) classes at the Ymca a few years ago, Aikido and Kendo. I also know that the highschool we met at for Sanchin-Ryu also offered TKD classes. Sanchin-Ryu Karate doesn't hold some sort of monopoly over it's class locations, that depends upon the community and district coordinators more than anything else.

 

[tenphse]

The point on the dump was that it couldn't be effectively demonstrated in class on a willing opponent, how would it work in real life. If a black belt is going to teach something, they should be able to demonstrate it. Glad it worked for you, but I can only provide my experiences and observations, and yes, opinions formed from those.

So again, because someone has not trained something to make it their own it means the technique is invalid or the style doesn't work. HMMM, little bit of faulty logic. I have used the technique on someone that was "active and resisting" and the technique worked as it was designed to do when someone gives you their center.

So you don't like Sanchinryu, your posts are obvious about that. But, why is your ONLY agenda to come on here and bash it? Your ONLY posts since registering have been to come on here to do just that you have not up till this point contributed to any other discussions or thoughts. You are NOT a productive member of this website and I don't think anyone benefits from your limited slanted view. I am not going to keep spending energy on your negativity or your agenda.

I don't know what agenda you are referring too. I thought the point of a discussion board was to discuss things. It is my choice, so far, to only post on this subject. I don't think that knowing members that studied the style as long as they did and my own willingness study the style for a year in any way constitutes a "limited" viewpoint. I gave it a fair examination, and came up with my own conclusion.

I have spent a significant amount of time defending my opinions, which differ from yours. If you don't want to "keep spending energy" then don't.
I disagree with you on Sanchin-ryu, get over it.

 

[tenphse]

I can understand the use of forms and their rigidity. My problem with the process was that "use what ever works" was limited to what we were shown in forms basic techniques. That plus the limited or non-existent sparring or applications, we never saw what would work or how to apply it, or did higher belts demonstrate this. It was almost a catch phrase for all the stuff that they didn't show us.
Like, what do we do in a situation like this?
oh just do what ever works.

I understand that different techniques work better for some people than others, against some opponents better than others, and some are silly (from an actual conflict application point of view). The process of becoming a person who has a chance to defend themselves, is to find what will work and how to vigorously and, as safely as possible, realistically apply it until it becomes muscle memory. I didn't see this happen in my time with Sanchin-ryu. The techniques didn't seem right and there was little in the way of applying it in a conflict-like situation.

When I was studying Sanchin-ryu (12-16 years ago I think) it was only taught in the schools (in my geographic location anyways). Those (3-4) school systems wouldn't allow any other style in to use the rooms because Sanchin-ryu already had the space (on different times). Not even another building in the system could be used in some cases.

 

[Sanchin-J]

Well, there's part of your problem right there, you only stayed in the art for a year? What belt did you make it to? You really don't get to see anything but basics, form work, and CBA training until you reach Black Belt, that's when your true education begins and when you begin to use kata, participate in Kumite, and explore more advanced techniques.

Think of it this way:

White Belt - Orange Belt: You learn the basic fundamentals, first 5 CBAs, and are introduced to the first form.

Orange Belt - Purple Belt: You refine your technique with the basic fundamentals, all (10) CBAs, and Sanchin-Ichi, Sanchi-Ni, and Naihanchi forms.

Brown Belt - Black Belt: Continued refinement and introduction to even more advanced techniques and your first set of Katas.

Everything you learn up to Black Belt is a primer for the Black Belt curriculum, it is at that point that you begin to learn the more advanced aspects of the art, you become a true student at this level. You'll explore in depth, the mechanics of the techniques we use, you'll kumite and see these techniques used and applied. Granted, now that I have some idea as to how long you studied and how frustrated you must have been, I can relate to your perspective on this. Even I went through that very same thought pattern regarding the art, then one day it just kind of "clicked" as to what was really going on and I've had nothing but success with the art ever since.

I truly am sorry you didn't feel Sanchin-Ryu was for you, but there are many many students, instructors and masters in this art who have been successful using this system and continue to stand by it. I can respect that you tried it out and discovered it wasn't for you, but to discredit the art because of personal taste and limited knowledge and experience in the art is unfair and unwarranted.

With no disrespect meant to you, I would have to say that you did not spend enough time in the art to truly understand the art itself, nor did you make it far enough into the training to really make a true assessment. We all have been where you are in your perspective, it isn't always easy to understand how the training kind of fits together up to the more advanced levels in the art, and there are times when just about any student will question the effectiveness when your outside looking in still.

 

[tenphse]

Sanchin J,

Thanks for your level-headed response.

To answer your question, I was preparing for purple belt when I left.

Just to reiterate my point, I didn't just make my decision based on what was taught me. I also based it on the effectiveness and skill of the instructors, fellow students, and the skills I saw at a seminar. I only interacted with one person that had a chance during a physical encounter, my opinion, with someone determined to hurt them. Sure no style is going to let you win every confrontation, but I didn't see skills being taught that were going to be effective. I didn't see higher level belts being able to utilize what they were teaching in a way that would be effective.

I also understand how somethings may be strange but make sense later on in one's study. My chose style to study now is Shotokan Aikido. Some things are strange to the beginner, but I have never doubted the power of my instructor's technique, or after several months, my ability take one or two things and feel comfortable using them should I need to.

 

[Sanchin-J]

I completely understand where your coming from, your experience with Sanchin-Ryu was a negative one and I can understand that, I myself find that the system is shallow in the beginning levels of the art, I mean your learning basic fundamentals, how to use them properly, how to combine them with multiple opponents, and a few forms at that level of training. To actually apply the limited training you have in a real life self defense situation really depends on the individual at that point. Are you comfortable and confident in what you've learned? Have you developed enough of an understanding to use what's being taught without having to think about it during a confrontation? For me, the answer is yes, but for others it might still be no.

The black belts actually have a seperate class they participate in, for the most part if you have them in your class assisting the Sensei or Master, they are for the most part teaching the lower level techniques and fundamentals. The segregation of black belts and/or Mastery level classes, helps to keep it simple for the students who are progressing up to the rank necessary to attend those advanced classes. You could almost call it a safe catch, the last thing I think the instructors want to have to worry about is having a green belt trying to utilize techniques they have not truly been taught and harming themselves or others.

Its a shame though, I have a feeling that if you had attended a few black belt classes even as an observer, your opinion would have changed quite drastically than from what it is currently. Just watching the Dojo chat sessions and going through video archives on the sanchin website would probably change your mind on the art, but I respect your decision to find something more appropriate for yourself, that's the way it should be. I myself have studied multiple styles, and out of all of the styles I've been in, Sanchin-Ryu was the best fit for me, I've had to use what I've been taught, and all I can say is I'm still alive and breathing thus far which satisfies me just fine hehe.

Anyhow, like I said originally, sorry it didn't work out for you, I would have loved to have known you back then and to have been able to shed some light on things alot earlier instead of losing a fellow student over it, but as long as your happy in the style you've chosen then hey, its all a part of the learning and living experience. Aikido is a GREAT art, I loved every minute of every class I ever attended, Hapkido was great too, but my first love will always be Sanchin-Ryu hehe.

 

[tenphse]

I am quite sure that my skill in Aikido would most likely only provide me one or two techniques I feel comfortable enough with that I could employ it without thinking, but I am still new to it.

Who knows, if I had met different instructors or students maybe I would have stuck with the style. Maybe the style has changed in the decade and half or so since I was involved with it. At the time I was looking for an alternative to TKD, it didn't fit me personally, but I didn't find it in Sanchin-ryu.

I am glad that it works for you, and I agree that everyone should look for a style that is a good match for them. Each of us has different builds, time available to work out, strengths, weaknesses, and patience level. Safety needs to be maintained (along with applicable realism) at all times. In my opinion no one style has everything for everyone. The more time I spend cross training the more comfortable I feel about the outcome should I need it.

Good Luck to you.

 

[idunno]

To truly understand Sanchin-Ryu you really need to get in at the ground floor and develop as a new student into the advanced belts. As you begin to explore the advanced content you then begin to see what it is they are doing and why your being taught the way you are.

Master Adams once, during teaching a black-belt class, star-stepped and bit at the air. Then he said something along the lines of "now when did I ever teach you this technique? See, sometimes, techniques break down on the street. I know I didn't teach 'Basic #11: Bite'."

Let's see... I made black belt, so I'd say that I have a decent enough understanding of Sanchin-Ryu for a non-Master. Enough to make recommendations to prospective students, in any case.

Sanchin-Ryu starts with basic fundamentals, teaching how to strike with them effectively, how to breath, how to practice fluidity in their use, and then you begin to explore more in depth applications of those fundamentals. Meanwhile, your building muscle memory, gaining confidence, and opening your mind up to new techniques while developing your own particular style of Sanchin-Ryu based upon "What works for you" principles.

But most Sanchinkas don't use them against each other on a consistent enough basis to internalize their proper use against a live opponent. I can probably do CBAs fluidly, front and back, reverse, inverse, and quantum-opposite, against THE AIR. But I star-step and bite during a confrontation sometimes.

I am not entirely sure why, but I have a pretty good idea. Because I haven't had to perform these techniques under extreme adrenalin dumps in class, the extreme adrenalin dump during a confrontation effectively removes my access to my techniques. Read the book Blink. I think Scott Sonnon talks about this too, not that I hero worship him or anything.

The wushu dump that the Instructor here talks about can be used against a resisting opponent... but without other combat fundamentals developed from consistent drills with multiple partners, he is good at doing a wushu dump, not fighting. And self-defense may be asymmetric fighting instead of symmetric fighting (UFC) but it is STILL FIGHTING, and requires fighting skills.

Keep in mind, we do have forms and do have advanced combination training, things that we don't allow deviation or personalization of. This isn't to limit the student however, it is to make sure the student is using the fundamentals effectively and properly so that when the time comes, if there is a self defense situation that arises, the transition between techniques is smooth and practiced, and effectively leaves the student at strategic advantage.

See, but it doesn't. That is the intended result, but the intended result does not come about as a result of the training, which is mostly learning fluid punching at air. Or fluid strikes at another opponent doing fluid strikes at you, when the fluid strikes are randomly drawn from the CBAs/forms and have very little to do with each other. It probably has some benefit over an extended period of time, but not as much as 1 year of boxing lessons... if for the ability to hit under stress alone.

Again, the stress thing is a guess, but it sounds better than anything I've heard. I'm certainly no martial arts master, but I know enough to have an uninformed scientific hypothesis, which I've verified through experience.

I would have to disagree with you on the "very little was shown that "worked" part of your sentence. With proper practice and understanding, any technique shown could feasibly work. As for the technique to unbalance or drop an opponent to the ground, we have several different techniques that can be used for that very thing. It could have been Wansu, San-Ju trip, or any number of others. I won't deny that certain techniques no matter how well you know them and can use them can end up falling short in a real combat situation.

All techniques can fall short in a real combat situation. In which case having other fundamentals, developed through frequent repetition against other human being, can give you the next technique you can instinctively try with some chance of success because your use of that technique against other human being has been corrected and then practiced CORRECTLY under increasing stress levels, not discovered by theorizing, which is what goes on at 95% of all classes I've been to, some of those being black belt classes. End run-on.

Again,

Bill Adams once, during teaching a black-belt class, star-stepped and bit at the air. Then he said something along the lines of "now when did I ever teach you this technique? See, sometimes, techniques break down on the street. I know I didn't teach 'Basic #11: Bite'."

Why do you think this is? I think I know, but maybe there's something I haven't learned yet.

I've had several instances where I've applied a lock and had someone slip out, or have attempted to throw or take down an opponent and had it countered or not work out so well, but that's just how it is for the most part. That's why in Sanchin-Ryu we're encouraged to always be several steps ahead with our strategy in case something like that does happen. I am however curious as to the details regarding that class if you would be interested in private messaging me with them I'd like to investigate this further. At brown and black belt there's really no excuse for not being able to execute those techniques effectively, I'm 110% confident that most if not all of our Purple and Green Belts in the classes where I'm located at could perform those techniques flawlessly.

Flawlessly... Against the air. Or against an unmoving opponent. Or against an moving opponent, without ever intending to really hit him. Without an adrenalin dump through some kind of escalating stress scenario repeated often enough to do anything. Perhaps this is done at Master level, but it should be done a LOT sooner.

And that's before learning to twist your hips correctly, or move the right back muscle, or get all your sloppy techniques corrected, which you MIGHT learn before 2nd degree black belt, IF you have the right teacher.

I know this from personal experience, being around other sanchinkas for 5 years, then being around other traditional stylists who'd studied for 5 years. There were three or four exceptions I met, out of a few hundred sanchinkans, that could use techniques to defend themselves without pure luck. The ones who practiced physical training drills against each other block, punch, block, punch, over and over; had their techniques corrected; and guided/free sparring practice, kicked the holy crap out of me. And I was a state-level wrestler.

And the nasty people who want to hurt you, the real nasty ones, well - knowing how to do CBAs 1 - 3 fluidly MIGHT help you if he knows what he's doing, if you're lucky. "Might" as in "probably not." There's obviously no guarantees when it comes to that sort of thing, but there are different chances of success. As in "pretty low" to "moderate".

This is of course assuming that the technique being shown was in fact a technique that is being taught at the lower level belts, it could have been that the technique you were included in for demonstration was something recently taught to brown belt or higher for all we know.

There didn't seem to be a whole lotta difference. CGM Dearman, who probably did have a lot of fighting experience, demonstrates a punch with his folded wrist - to an audience who practices it against the air at home like it's the touch of death.

Actually, I'm not sure where you took the classes at, but I do know that some community programs being offered through certain school districts or community centers are offering a wide variety of martial arts selections. As an example, I was taking (2) classes at the Ymca a few years ago, Aikido and Kendo. I also know that the highschool we met at for Sanchin-Ryu also offered TKD classes. Sanchin-Ryu Karate doesn't hold some sort of monopoly over it's class locations, that depends upon the community and district coordinators more than anything else.

Once you've seen the real deal, it's hard to find again. I did once, and the best I've been able to find since then is a bunch of brutes haphazardly free sparring and rolling on the ground with one another - which has helped me a lot more than Sanchin-Ryu ever did. At least that gives you usable experience.

 

[punisher73]

There didn't seem to be a whole lotta difference. CGM Dearman, who probably did have a lot of fighting experience, demonstrates a punch with his folded wrist - to an audience who practices it against the air at home like it's the touch of death.

For my own curiousity, what do you mean by "folded wrist"? A strike using the top of the wrist?

As to the other stuff, I have addressed it MANY times. Your complaint is against the way things are trained. People study for LOTS of different reasons and fighting is only one aspect of it. Sanchin-Ryu is set up so that people who pursue it for other reasons can still get a benefit from it and the students that want to study it for fighting can also train it that way. Your complaint sounds like the same complaint I have heard leveled at just about everyother "TMA" out there. Unless it's all "sparring" it doesn't work.

I'm glad that you found something that works for you.

 

[stilldunno]

For my own curiousity, what do you mean by "folded wrist"? A strike using the top of the wrist?

Well, I believe it was the back of the folded wrist, same side as the thumb. Details get foggy after 12 years.

As to the other stuff, I have addressed it MANY times. Your complaint is against the way things are trained. People study for LOTS of different reasons and fighting is only one aspect of it. Sanchin-Ryu is set up so that people who pursue it for other reasons can still get a benefit from it and the students that want to study it for fighting can also train it that way.

Well... I don't really see what other reasons there are. I wouldn't go to a car dealership for any other reason than to buy a car. If they helped expand my mind/spirit/personal growth as well, that's great, as long as I get a car. If I started hanging out with hundreds of other people at a car dealership but never bought a car, I shouldn't kid myself that I have one. I'm sure that analogy breaks down pretty fast, but I hope it gets my complaint out.

I don't mean fighting as in "reality" combat, or fighting as in squaring off against another person anywhere: bar, street, Chuck E. Cheese. I mean fighting as in self-defense/survival, or asymmetric fighting. Isn't that the reason people should take a martial art? If they're taking it for health, why pretend it's effective martial training? The "many reasons" just seems like a red herring.

You've had the luck of working as a corrections officer for a few years, so I'm sure you get chances to use Sanchin-ryu, although I'm willing to bet it's closer to brawling with Sanchin-ryu techniques. Someone else, who wanted to learn only self-defense, may voice that want and never get what they need from a Sanchin-ryu class beyond a really good shi punch, with no skills behind it. When and where do they offer the opportunity to train for fighting? I never saw it - you gotta figure that out on your own.

Your complaint sounds like the same complaint I have heard leveled at just about everyother "TMA" out there. Unless it's all "sparring" it doesn't work. I'm glad that you found something that works for you.

Thanks, you seem like a pretty nice guy.

I actually don't believe that "just sparring" is the only thing there is, although I really don't know what to believe. I can only speak from my very limited experience that slightly-refined brawling (MMA) was better than my Sanchin-ryu training. I don't believe that MMA training is superior to TMA, depending on what exactly constitutes TMA. Huo Yuanjia was a TMA, right? And that guy kicked the crap out of all sorts of foreign boxing-types.

Let me preface this next statement by saying that I am NOT A WAHNAMITE!

Ok, now that that's out of the way, I can't help thinking that Wong Kiew Kit, with his systematic approach to sparring, might be closer to true TMA, and could really serve the Sanchinkas well, although parts of it conflict with Sanchin philosophy. Of course, WKK also makes claims like using his chi to make it rain, and charges 1000-1500 euro to teach the relaxation response, I mean, "chi gung". His training approach seems good though.

Or that Scott Sonnon, with his highly-marketed, jargon-packed FlowFighting just might have something as well. He's too business-oriented for me as well, but I can't help thinking maybe he's got something.

I wish I'd found what works for me now. I don't live next to that school anymore. Pretty much everything I've found here in DC is MMA (learn to fight intuitively by sparring). Bunch of McDojos.