Combative training for Women

"you can lead a horse to water but you can not make them drink"

i dont think she is looking to become a professional fighter.... she is looking to not become the victim.... you are comparing competitive sports with violence and combat.....

the title of this thread is "combative training for women" .... and all your responses are "competitive training for women" ....

you learn by moving slow...not by suiting up and running full force into something.... violence is not the chaos you see on t.v. or in the studio.... they make it seem that way becuase they are not smoothly and effectively targeting thier opponent... they are just punching and kicking whatever spot is open....you see this chaos all the time in untrained victims or assailants.... if you effectively target your opponent you control thier movemnts and you control the outcome....there is no chaos if you are in control... frantically scrambling to get a punch or kick in on someone who is faster or stronger is chaotic....deuling is chaotic... violence is deliberate.... there is no chaos in the act itself

all that is being brought up is purely social... violence is not...

a crack crazed junkie is not going to thai kick you or throw a roundhouse or grab you and try to put you in an arm bar.... they are going to club you in the head, shoot you in the face or stab you to death.... why? becuase they want something and they know how to get it...

you should too...

by the way.... when was the last time you saw a crackhead, meth addict, rapist or murderer sparring or training.... ???? probably never... why is that??? becuase they know what most refuse to pay atention to... VIOLENCE
 
Empty Hands said:
Yes, clearly, punching holes in the air will be so much more effective.
Click to expand...

address my points....no tapdancing....

punching and kicking is purely elastic.... and not effective...especially against someone bigger, stronger or faster.... why would a woman try to punch a crackhead man in the face or kick him in the leg ....no matter how perful her punches and kicks are, she will not be effective in shutting off his brain.... I have been hitting pads for decades and and it has done nothing for me but confirm that i would be a good competitor....
 
BLACK LION said:
how can i or anyone don a padded ensemble, openly spar with a partner and learn to effectively target and traumatize the human anatomy....its backpeddling....
especially a woman with a distinct size and strength disadvantage.... women need to be trained that any confrontation or opposition by a male adversary should be deemed life threatening.... so why should she be trained to try to out move and out muscle someone with an obvious advantage.... sparring with pads is useful for combat sports alone.... not a violent confrontation

they must learn to injure.... not to play patty cake



in fact... i am training under a false sense of security and can in no way guage the effectiveness or in-effectiveness of my striking.... it becomes a competition and falls under certain rules( have to be bigger-stronger-faster).... a person cant pick thier opponent and make sure they match up perfectly.... so why train that way....

when the shtf you will do what you train.... and if you are used to kicking bags and sparring with pads then you are sol.... the memory of my good friend shervin tehranchi says so.... he was an excellent martial artisit and had several black belts.... he trained muay thai, juijitsu and wing chuna s well.... he was an instructor to many and revered as the fighter to beat.... he was stabbed to death after preventing his brother from being robbed.... he actually squared up, fought 5 gangsters and beat them.... until the knife came out and went int his neck and heart .....

this is the severity and the reason why training witht he right principles is paramount..... if combat sports is your thing then yes you are right.....

but if martialism or combat alone is what one is preparing for then sparring with pads could not be farther from the truth
Click to expand...

You miss the point....you can claim you're training in 'ultra deadly secret instant kill' techniques all you want......but if you have never been PUNCHED IN THE FACE.......when you do all that BS will fly right out the window......THAT is what sparring is for. ;)
 
BLACK LION said:
"you can lead a horse to water but you can not make them drink"

i dont think she is looking to become a professional fighter.... she is looking to not become the victim.... you are comparing competitive sports with violence and combat.....

the title of this thread is "combative training for women" .... and all your responses are "competitive training for women" ....

you learn by moving slow...not by suiting up and running full force into something.... violence is not the chaos you see on t.v. or in the studio.... they make it seem that way becuase they are not smoothly and effectively targeting thier opponent... they are just punching and kicking whatever spot is open....you see this chaos all the time in untrained victims or assailants.... if you effectively target your opponent you control thier movemnts and you control the outcome....there is no chaos if you are in control... frantically scrambling to get a punch or kick in on someone who is faster or stronger is chaotic....deuling is chaotic... violence is deliberate.... there is no chaos in the act itself

all that is being brought up is purely social... violence is not...

a crack crazed junkie is not going to thai kick you or throw a roundhouse or grab you and try to put you in an arm bar.... they are going to club you in the head, shoot you in the face or stab you to death.... why? becuase they want something and they know how to get it...

you should too...

by the way.... when was the last time you saw a crackhead, meth addict, rapist or murderer sparring or training.... ???? probably never... why is that??? becuase they know what most refuse to pay atention to... VIOLENCE
Click to expand...
You inserted the words 'competative sport'......unless you are actually arguing that FIGHTING, life and death FIGHTING is not an impact activity (which would be laughable) then you've lost this argument.

And a CRACKHEAD will walk up and PUNCH YOU RIGHT IN THE FACE! If you've never been hit, guess what happens then? ;)

You've wandered in to a false dichotomy.......'Combat Sport' vs. RBSD..........there is a difference between Combat Sports and the street.......but that difference doesn't involve sparring and training to get hit, training for impact. There's a reason decent boxers in a street fight almost always knock out other people in street fight.......it's because they have hit and been hit hundreds and hundreds of times. Simply punching one isn't going to cause his mind to blank like it does the average person who has never been hit.

The problem with some RBSD adherents isn't the techniques taught........it's the presumption that with those techniques you'll NEVER have to weather a beating in order to fight back.......and that's ludicrous. If you get ambushed and punched in the mouth, and it's the first time you've ever been hit in the face, you're behind the power curve. If you've been hit many times in the face, it's no big deal and you recover much more quickly.

You inoculate your mind and body to violence by hard sparring.......it's the same way we inoculate our immune system to certain diseases.......by giving it a dose of it so that it knows what it is when the real thing comes.
 
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BLACK LION said:
address my points....no tapdancing....

punching and kicking is purely elastic.... and not effective...especially against someone bigger, stronger or faster.... why would a woman try to punch a crackhead man in the face or kick him in the leg ....no matter how perful her punches and kicks are, she will not be effective in shutting off his brain.... I have been hitting pads for decades and and it has done nothing for me but confirm that i would be a good competitor....
Click to expand...
A crackhead WILL punch her in the face......you're suggesting she learn to dance as a SOLUTION to fighting......when in reality fight, combat, whatever the hell you want to call it......is a HIGH IMPACT activity.

You can call it boxing, you can call it RBSD, you can give it whatever name you want.......it's STILL about two (or more) human beings trying to damage and/or kill each other, it's about bodies slamming together, it's about blood and guts and sweat and anger and violence.

All those 'solutions' to fighting are fine so long as you don't miss the point......and saying you don't need to actually get punched in the face to learn how to fight is missing that point.
 
BLACK LION said:
"you can lead a horse to water but you can not make them drink"

i dont think she is looking to become a professional fighter.... she is looking to not become the victim.... you are comparing competitive sports with violence and combat.....

the title of this thread is "combative training for women" .... and all your responses are "competitive training for women" ....

you learn by moving slow...not by suiting up and running full force into something.... violence is not the chaos you see on t.v. or in the studio.... they make it seem that way becuase they are not smoothly and effectively targeting thier opponent... they are just punching and kicking whatever spot is open....you see this chaos all the time in untrained victims or assailants.... if you effectively target your opponent you control thier movemnts and you control the outcome....there is no chaos if you are in control... frantically scrambling to get a punch or kick in on someone who is faster or stronger is chaotic....deuling is chaotic... violence is deliberate.... there is no chaos in the act itself

all that is being brought up is purely social... violence is not...
Click to expand...

A real fight is not pretty. It doesn't go by the rules. It's just that simple. No matter how well trained or skilled you are -- things don't go the same way under pressure. Even the best trained and most prepared will face the effects of the adrenal dump and the physiological and psychological impact of a true fight. Stress inoculation reduces -- but doesn't eliminate this.

Sparring is ONE method of practicing learned techniques UNDER PRESSURE. It's not the only way -- but you must come face to face with being hit and hitting back under pressure if you really want to be prepared for an attack. See, the simple truth is that the ogre that's attacking you is almost certainly going to work from 2 advantages: They're already ACTING, not reacting, and they're almost certainly going to seek and use surprise.

Allow me to refer you to someone who's said it much better than I; read Rory Miller's book Meditations On Violence. I might suggest special attention to the phrase "monkey dance." It's one of the best descriptive phrases I've ever seen -- and it makes it much easier to understand what real violence is.
 
jks9199 said:
A real fight is not pretty. It doesn't go by the rules. It's just that simple. No matter how well trained or skilled you are -- things don't go the same way under pressure. Even the best trained and most prepared will face the effects of the adrenal dump and the physiological and psychological impact of a true fight. Stress inoculation reduces -- but doesn't eliminate this.

Sparring is ONE method of practicing learned techniques UNDER PRESSURE. It's not the only way -- but you must come face to face with being hit and hitting back under pressure if you really want to be prepared for an attack. See, the simple truth is that the ogre that's attacking you is almost certainly going to work from 2 advantages: They're already ACTING, not reacting, and they're almost certainly going to seek and use surprise.

Allow me to refer you to someone who's said it much better than I; read Rory Miller's book Meditations On Violence. I might suggest special attention to the phrase "monkey dance." It's one of the best descriptive phrases I've ever seen -- and it makes it much easier to understand what real violence is.
Click to expand...

No matter what euphemisms we use to avoid admitting the reality of it....call fighting 'resistance' or 'self-defense' or 'Super ninja self-protection' it's still fighting.......and fighting is still just two (or more) chimpanzees trying to bash each others brains in.
 
sgtmac_46 said:
No matter what euphemisms we use to avoid admitting the reality of it....call fighting 'resistance' or 'self-defense' or 'Super ninja self-protection' it's still fighting.......and fighting is still just two (or more) chimpanzees trying to bash each others brains in.
Click to expand...
That's a great point, but it's not how Miller is using the phrase.

He distinguishes between many fight which are really over status or to impress someone and the violent attack of a predator by calling the former a "monkey dance." The truth is that in the monkey dance, the real goal IS NOT to do serious harm; it's just to get recognition of status. Those who don't question their status don't participate in the monkey dance -- whether they see themselves above or below the status of the challenger. A predatory attack, on the other hand, is just that -- it's an attack focused on obtaining something from the prey, just like a tiger attacking an antelope.
 
BLACK LION said:
you learn by moving slow...not by suiting up and running full force into something.... violence is not the chaos you see on t.v. or in the studio.... they make it seem that way becuase they are not smoothly and effectively targeting thier opponent... they are just punching and kicking whatever spot is open....you see this chaos all the time in untrained victims or assailants.... if you effectively target your opponent you control thier movemnts and you control the outcome....there is no chaos if you are in control... frantically scrambling to get a punch or kick in on someone who is faster or stronger is chaotic....deuling is chaotic... violence is deliberate.... there is no chaos in the act itself
Click to expand...

Last time I checked, a street fight was the least choreographed thing in the world - a far, far cry from the junk they show on tv or in movies. The smooth and effective targeting of "their" opponent isn't going to work in the street when you have multiple attackers that are NOT waiting politely for their turn at beating the snot out of you.

A person may be able to effectively target and control a single opponent, but what happens when 3 of his buddies show up and 2 of them have knives? That targeting and control go out the window as you try to avoid 2 knives and 8 sets of arms/legs trying to cut, slash, and smash their way through you.

Violence is very often deliberate and may not appear chaotic to the perp but for the the victim it is total chaos. Learning to deal with the shock to your system when you're hit and learning to not just hit back, but hit back as hard and as fast as you can are vital. The best way to learn that is through sparring in a "safe" environment.

- Kelly
 
All I can add is, self-defense for women is totally different than normal martial arts classes. I know, I taught them for a few years.

Good hunting and hope you find something nearer to your home.
 
violence is not chaos... its one person injuring another.... it is simple
im not interestead in fight variables... im interested in injuries

its not about technique or disciplines or various types of fighting(knife,stick,ground,gun,empty hand etc)....one needs to be taught how to effectively deal with anyone regardless of the technique or the tool....by repeatedly injuring them
violence is not comprised of a bunch of disciplines or techniques....
a predator does not go to the studio to work on his ambush technique so he can rape and kill someone.... he uses violence in its simplest form to his advantage....he acts first and continues until satisfied....
you being the one causing the injuries to the other person is going to ensure you go home...
in order to inflict injuries you must target...
you must have and understanding of where the targets are and how to get to them...it is a skill acquired by going slow and developing the bodily coordination required to apply your body parts in motion... we all know real fights are fast so why go slow...well because targeting is a skill that takes practice, accepting no errors and speed will just mess it all up...fast practice hinders targeting .... "SLOW IS SMOOTH AND SMOOTH IS FAST"
you can strike as hard as fast as you can but if you have no targeting skill you are ineffecticve....if you go fast without the skill of targeting to cause injury you may beat them but you wont break them...

plain and simple they need to be taught violence is the answer and now is the time.... injury is the key to surviving and the other guy not... repeatable reliable injury is the model of success in a violent confrontation....

survival is a choice... and as long as one can move and think they have a choice.... survival is forging ones reality with the belief that it can be done... its not about going home to loved ones or getting out alive its about forging the outcome through reliable injuries to the other person or persons...
 
jks9199 said:
That's a great point, but it's not how Miller is using the phrase.

He distinguishes between many fight which are really over status or to impress someone and the violent attack of a predator by calling the former a "monkey dance." The truth is that in the monkey dance, the real goal IS NOT to do serious harm; it's just to get recognition of status. Those who don't question their status don't participate in the monkey dance -- whether they see themselves above or below the status of the challenger. A predatory attack, on the other hand, is just that -- it's an attack focused on obtaining something from the prey, just like a tiger attacking an antelope.
Click to expand...
Predatory versus Defensive aggression (in his case ego defense or young male hierarchical combat).

Fight, Flight, Posture and Submit.
 
BLACK LION said:
violence is not chaos... its one person injuring another.... it is simple
im not interestead in fight variables... im interested in injuries

its not about technique or disciplines or various types of fighting(knife,stick,ground,gun,empty hand etc)....one needs to be taught how to effectively deal with anyone regardless of the technique or the tool....by repeatedly injuring them
violence is not comprised of a bunch of disciplines or techniques....
a predator does not go to the studio to work on his ambush technique so he can rape and kill someone.... he uses violence in its simplest form to his advantage....he acts first and continues until satisfied....
you being the one causing the injuries to the other person is going to ensure you go home...
in order to inflict injuries you must target...
you must have and understanding of where the targets are and how to get to them...it is a skill acquired by going slow and developing the bodily coordination required to apply your body parts in motion... we all know real fights are fast so why go slow...well because targeting is a skill that takes practice, accepting no errors and speed will just mess it all up...fast practice hinders targeting .... "SLOW IS SMOOTH AND SMOOTH IS FAST"
you can strike as hard as fast as you can but if you have no targeting skill you are ineffecticve....if you go fast without the skill of targeting to cause injury you may beat them but you wont break them...

plain and simple they need to be taught violence is the answer and now is the time.... injury is the key to surviving and the other guy not... repeatable reliable injury is the model of success in a violent confrontation....

survival is a choice... and as long as one can move and think they have a choice.... survival is forging ones reality with the belief that it can be done... its not about going home to loved ones or getting out alive its about forging the outcome through reliable injuries to the other person or persons...
Click to expand...
Violence IS CHAOS!

The presumption being that the person your teaching will ALWAYS be on the attack and will not have to weather pain and punishment in the process......or I should say assumption.

Violence IS the answer......but what you're advocating is a dance masquerading as violence. The only way to teach violence is THROUGH violence.....simulated violence as realistic as possible, with a resistant opponent hurting back!

You miss the point by thinking i'm talking about technique.......'and as long as one can move and think they have a choice'.......which is EXACTLY my point.......how do you teach someone to keep THINKING under violent assault without putting them under violent assault? The military understands this, the police understand this, but apparently some folks teaching women's self-defense think they can teach the women some responses, TELL them to be 'Be...aggressive...Be...Be....Aggressive' and that they'll get it in the moment of truth. You have to TRAIN the mind to deal with violence by training the mind THROUGH violence!
 
Guys,

I'm pretty decent in the ring. But I can tell you unless the other guy is a newbie who is scare of me (and yes that black belt does scare new people in a dojo) that it's alot harder to nail someone who does not want to be nailed and wants to pay you back.

I look real good against those who are intimidated by either uniform or flashy technique. I can get away with alot (and I do!)

But, when I go against others who are pretty good it becomes a real messy afair. Not something like Van Damne's shows at all. And before someone says to 'forget fear and think of yourself as being dead', well that sounds good but comes up short most of the time.

I've never been in a perfect fight, street or dojo against people who can fight to. I would not say complete chaos, but there is alot of doubt sometimes!

My advice is to always have a plan 'B' in any SD situation. If the technique does not work perfect, have a fast alternative 'ending' so as to not stop and let the other guy get his OODA reset. This is really what adapting and improvising is all about.

And train hard to get your techniques so ingrained they are reflexes and you don't have to (or want to) think about them.

Deaf
 
Empty Hands said:
Have you ever actually experienced violence?
Click to expand...
I have my friend... fortunately I am here to share... I have good friends that are not...
I am around potential violence everyday.... I live and grew up in southern california since the 80s and 90s...they do not call it the wild west becuase of the movies.... people get shot here for wearing a hat and less....

the act of violence itself is not chaotic.... what seems chaotic is the social decline that almost always preceedes the act itself ....

I am not here to amuse you with a resume of violent encounters... ive faced the gun...ive sfaced the blade and ive faced multiple attackers... I have made mistakes that cost me and I have made actions that spared me.... I am here because I am willing to know and apply... I am here becuase I am unreasonable.... I am here becuase action is simple...and the more one simplifies it the easier it is.... violence is not chaos to me becuase i have habituated it and I know there is nothing chaotic about deliberate injury.... it is precise and effective... there is no confusion in committing a violent act.... social breakdown is where you find your chaos my friend.... you dont have to believe me.... life will answer your questions for you
 
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