Co-ordination Set #1 & #2

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

There's been More. :soapbox:




Your Brother
John

Clever, John. Clever.

 

[Brother John]

Sorry for the attitude before

Thank you for the apology. It takes some maturity to step up when you took the wrong route. Thanks for clearing it up! :asian:

I also was not aware that you only do step through kicks

That's not what I said. I do all manner of kicks, what I meant to convey was that when I execute a kick from the back leg...I set it down forward, I don't reverse my bodies momentum by returning it to it's point of origin behind my center of gravity. This takes time and energy and creates a great liability in loss of balance. Here's a definition I took from a fine web-sites "Terms & Definitions" page:

Angle of No Return - Refers to the position and angle of the upper body and hips while delivering a front kick or forward motion, making it awkward, difficult, and illogical to attempt to return to your starting position. Because of the awkwardness and the time needed to return to your original position, exposure of your vital areas would work in your opponent's favor - not to mention your inability to render an immediate counter.

I find this to be very logical, it's simple kinesiology. YET these sets have us doing exactly that!!!!
then once we've violated this principle, we violate another...we settle down/back as we punch forward...

DIRECTIONAL HARMONY: Having all of your action moving in the same direction. This principle aids in obtaining maximum results. It is a requirement when executing Body Momentum that residually triggers Back-Up Mass.

Now, don't we teach our white belts that a punch has power that develops from the floor up...that we must have a well established base in order to have the anatomical alignment to deliver adequate force??? I do. Why then should I teach them a highly repetitive exercise (high repetition leads to muscle memory, engraining pattern habits) to have one foot in the air while we are punching? In this set you execute a punch with one hand while kicking with the other foot.
These are my reasons. IF we adhere to the principles, which we are taught is the corner-stone of WHY we do What we do... we must see that these sets defeats the purpose.
I know I will be disagreed with. It's the nature of these forums and especially these discussions.
Please: lets keep it civil.
Your Brother
John

 

[BlackPhoenix]

I agree with you 100% brother!!!

Mr. Parker did not create the coordination sets. That is why some Kenpo bloodlines do not teach them, and why Mr. Planas gave you the answer he did.

I think there are better things already in the system to run for coordination. Like things that have real application.

Filler? Maybe. Depends on the teacher.

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

I'm not sure I understand why it's a Bad Thing to have a set that teaches students to do stuff like punch effectively as they're recovering a kick.

I don't think it's bad to teach students to punch as they recover from a kick, we do it in the AKKI (Slipping the mace). However, I do have a problem with students planting back to the kicks point of origin and then punching. Your body is disengaging at the exact same time that you are trying to engage one of your weapons. I just don't see the logic or science in this.

 

[Brother John]

Hi Robert-

1. I'm not sure I understand why it's a Bad Thing to have a set that teaches students to do stuff like punch effectively as they're recovering a kick.

Please reread what I've typed. I never said that it's a "Bad Thing". Recovering from a well executed kick in order to execute a good strike is a crucial element of a white belt's instruction! But, as I pointed out in the above reply to TOD/Sean, the kick is NOT well executed, it creates a balance liability, exposes our vital areas as easy access to our attacker, it's more difficult, takes more time/energy to reverse the motion. It goes on. IF I kick from my back leg, I set it down forward...so then the punch I would deliver upon 'recovering' from the kick would be in line with the momentum that the kick already created...forward, toward the target.
I don't think that this set is a "Bad thing". Look at it like this, Mr. Parker said that a kick is nothing more than an exagerated step right? OK. Then setting a kick down behind us = stepping to the rear. We don't teach our students to step to 6:00 and punch to 12:00 RIGHT????? We don't step back and punch forward! Now if I'm being charged and I time/gauge my attacker by stepping back and rebound with a punch to his midsection (BTW: I'd rather step off-line and attack along with a riding check, from an zone of sanctuary...but hey, this IS a hypothetical right?) I would first solidify my base (which an experienced Kenpoist should be able to do in a split second) and deliver from that solid base...lest his attack finds my anatomical alignment wanting and forces the recoil up my own arm and he charges straight through like a bull through a tissue wall. BUT that is NOT what this set has us doing. The timing of the set is specific, we punch AS we set down.

You folks are forgetting that a) not every student is incredibly talented and capable of extracting this stuff from techniques

The heck I have! (he said through a friendly smile) that's one of the biggest lessons I've learned as I've been sharing our art with others!!! Figuring out how to get the lessons through to these students is what has made, and is making, me a better instructor! I don't expect them to "extract" anything, I expect the sets/techniques to Train/condition them to respond in ways that are in keeping with solid principles. It's important to remember that all of our curriculum...NO MATTER what school/camp/association of Kenpo (or even any other martial art/system) doesn't teach us to fight so much as it trains us to fight. What these two sets in particular trains us to do violates logic. That's the "Bad" thing. Infact, I only teach/share these sets with people who already have a very solid foundation of skills, IS one of those who will "Extract" the "stuff" (ie; a sharp cookie) and can enjoy thier "funness".

not every student is incredibly ready to clash with the emotional content of martial arts--they need detours, alibis and safe havens in the system

Robert, I'd like to respond to this bit, but I really don't understand the point. If you would, could you please help me out with this one. Being that you are a very very intelligent man... the fault is probably mine. Mom always said I had a thick skull. :idunno: Maybe if you further defined what you meant to convey. Thanks in advance.

students need places to develop THEIR talents, not their teacher's

OK. Maybe I don't understand your point here...
But if I do:
Are you saying that THEIR talents need to lay along lines that violate logic and sound principles? Do they need the talent of stepping back AS you punch forward? Very true, they need to develop and cultivate their talent/skill/understanding... but I (as their instructor) will strive to make sure that they are in keeping with logic and sound principles; not in violation of them.

beginning students are not black belts, in whom it is fairly proper to start rethinking what they've been doing.

So once my student earns their black belt they can reflect on the fact that what I've spent years training their bodies to do violates logic and the corner-stone of our art?
IF this logic predominates it could account for the High levels of "Black Belt Dropout" throughout the martial arts...
"DANG! Why the heck did Sensei require me to do this crap!! It's not even logical! all those wasted years!!!"
I'd rather THINK about what I'm doing while or prior to doing it...
Must make sure that the ladder I climb
rests on the right wall!

Short Form 1, and a buncha yellow belt techniques as I know them, teach stepping back with a strike.

NO.
They contain a step back, true.
They contain a punch/strike forward, true.
They do N O T punch forward as they step back. Though you and I study divergent branches of Kenpo... I highly doubt that your good and effective techniques teach you to move to the rear AS you deliver a linear strike to the front! No matter what you call your art, it wouldn't work.

Just off the toppa me head, Thrusting Salute, Buckling Branch, Gift of Destruction, Checking the Storm, and a boatload of others feature back-leg, step-through kicks...

YES.
Again, I have NOTHING against a kick off of the back leg!
With your own words you show though that these techniques are not in keeping with the movement that the coordination sets force you to do repetitively... you called them (and rightly so)

back-leg, step-through kicks...

In these sets, do you execute a "Step-through" kick?
If you do the set several times over and over and over in a row, do you end up several feet forward as you've been 'stepping through'?
No. You take your kick, which flung your momentum forward, past your center of gravity... reverse that momentum, recross your center of gravity (exposing your groin over a duration)...and place it behind you again.
Here's from that web-site again, the one with the terms and such:

Step Through - The execution of one full step forward or back, or in the case of a step through kick, it means kicking with the rear foot and planting that foot forward.

I didn't edit that, I just highlighted for emphasis.
You are correct, those techniques DO feature the kicks you mentioned.
But that just makes them irrelevent to this discussion of the coordination sets.

I hope you see what I'm getting at.
Thanks :asian:
Your Brother
John

 

[Brother John]

HEY CHAD....
Check it out man!
I'm doin it!

I'm contributing!!!!!!!!!!!!!
artyon:
...and it feels good!

Thanks for the encouragement!

Your Brother
John

 

[Touch Of Death]

Thank you for the apology. It takes some maturity to step up when you took the wrong route. Thanks for clearing it up! :asian:


That's not what I said. I do all manner of kicks, what I meant to convey was that when I execute a kick from the back leg...I set it down forward, I don't reverse my bodies momentum by returning it to it's point of origin behind my center of gravity. This takes time and energy and creates a great liability in loss of balance. Here's a definition I took from a fine web-sites "Terms & Definitions" page:

I find this to be very logical, it's simple kinesiology. YET these sets have us doing exactly that!!!!
then once we've violated this principle, we violate another...we settle down/back as we punch forward...

Now, don't we teach our white belts that a punch has power that develops from the floor up...that we must have a well established base in order to have the anatomical alignment to deliver adequate force??? I do. Why then should I teach them a highly repetitive exercise (high repetition leads to muscle memory, engraining pattern habits) to have one foot in the air while we are punching? In this set you execute a punch with one hand while kicking with the other foot.
These are my reasons. IF we adhere to the principles, which we are taught is the corner-stone of WHY we do What we do... we must see that these sets defeats the purpose.
I know I will be disagreed with. It's the nature of these forums and especially these discussions.
Please: lets keep it civil.
Your Brother
John

Brother John,
what I think you are saying is that you feel a kick off the back leg should always make you pass the point of no return. Two thing come to mind that run counter to that: 1. The target does not give and you bounce back (great time for possible reverse punch) 2. You regulate your force to conserve energy which cause you not to pass that point of no return, hence no violation of principles. If I'm in a left and my oponent throws a round house kick off the back leg, I can stomp his inner thigh with out throwing all my weight forward; once again leaving me right where I started.
Sean

 

[rmcrobertson]

Read good already. Set bad, therefore dropped. It teach bad motion and principles.

Plain points, Mr. John.

Often, students need places to hide out from, or to detour around, the violence of martial arts. It's not a question of what they should think; it's a question of what they do think. (Note: this is something I first heard articulated by larry tatum, just a footnote.)

Second...uh, Short Form 1...I see that all stright lines are circles, but...uh...you don't consider those first two inward blocks to be linear? or strikes? To say nothing of the back elbows? Hm.

As for the bit about allowing students to find their own, well, I've always heard this described as a goodly chunk of the reason for the diversity of kenpo in all its forms. Not everybody will teach; most will learn decent self defense and some other things. Teachers need the full vocabulary; students can afford to only learn subsets.

 

[Rainman]

HEY CHAD....
Check it out man!
I'm doin it!

I'm contributing!!!!!!!!!!!!!
artyon:
...and it feels good!

Thanks for the encouragement!

Your Brother
John

And I am very proud of you! You are helping everyone grow!

Your bro'
Rainman

 

[Touch Of Death]

Read good already. Set bad, therefore dropped. It teach bad motion and principles.

Plain points, Mr. John.

Often, students need places to hide out from, or to detour around, the violence of martial arts. It's not a question of what they should think; it's a question of what they do think. (Note: this is something I first heard articulated by larry tatum, just a footnote.)

Second...uh, Short Form 1...I see that all stright lines are circles, but...uh...you don't consider those first two inward blocks to be linear? or strikes? To say nothing of the back elbows? Hm.

As for the bit about allowing students to find their own, well, I've always heard this described as a goodly chunk of the reason for the diversity of kenpo in all its forms. Not everybody will teach; most will learn decent self defense and some other things. Teachers need the full vocabulary; students can afford to only learn subsets.

This set isn't about hiding. I would venture to say that was a ridiculous statement and that I hope you were kidding. This set teaches actual fighting concepts, that, with a little insight, can improve and or teach you a very major concept about freestyle. I was reading on the Kajukenbo Cafe website that they were introducing techs at a greenbelt level that taught some of its principles, yet kenpo lets you chew on them from the very begining. Unless of course you want to wait and discover them later with advanced techs(Or maybe that last tip of the week for instance!).
Sean

 

[rmcrobertson]

Sorry, but my statement was dead accurate--as any teacher who paid attention to what students were actually doing would know.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Sorry, but my statement was dead accurate--as any teacher who paid attention to what students were actually doing would know.

Dead? yes, but accurate? no. Not all of us have taken the liberty Of classifying all of Mr. Parkers teachings as worthless metaphore.
Sean

 

[Touch Of Death]

Read good already. Set bad, therefore dropped. It teach bad motion and principles.

Plain points, Mr. John.

Often, students need places to hide out from, or to detour around, the violence of martial arts. It's not a question of what they should think; it's a question of what they do think. (Note: this is something I first heard articulated by larry tatum, just a footnote.)

Second...uh, Short Form 1...I see that all stright lines are circles, but...uh...you don't consider those first two inward blocks to be linear? or strikes? To say nothing of the back elbows? Hm.

As for the bit about allowing students to find their own, well, I've always heard this described as a goodly chunk of the reason for the diversity of kenpo in all its forms. Not everybody will teach; most will learn decent self defense and some other things. Teachers need the full vocabulary; students can afford to only learn subsets.

For gods sake Robert. Mr Tatum just showed us all an offensive application of C set 1, calls it something different and your ready to dismiss his obvious source for the revelation as a hide out from the violence of this cruel world. Watch the tip with the sound off, if it helps.
Sean

 

[rmcrobertson]

Um...ahh. Sean? bubbeleh? I kinda mostly been there while these Tips get filmed?

I think you really need to work on distortions--how in the hell you could read what I wrote as announcing that much of kenpo is, "worthless metaphore," or that the sets allow students merely to, "hide out," from, this, "cruel world," is beyond me. Unless, of course, you're so fussed that it's me doing the writing that you won't do the reading.

I'll try one last time, bubba. All's I'm saying is this: the sets, beyond their clear applications to fighting, are invaluable teaching tools that ought not to be discarded. Why? because many students need them, in my experience, including myself.

Why do they need them? Because there are a lot of people who come through the door of a martial arts studio because a) they are scared, b) they want to learn an art and aren't terribly talented, c) they are wrestling with some sort of more-or-less deeply buried issue.

Why can't a teacher just crash head on into their assorted issues? because mostly, it won't work. The student will quit; or, even worse, they'll become the instructor's dog. I'd advise reading a little Freud on transference, counter-transference, and resistances, but hey, up to you.

I'd argue that these "useless," sets, forms, etc., also take the place of a lot of the family, social, cultural and religious structures that used to keep students in martial arts, but that's another set of questions altogether.

In any case there's no real clash with what you're arguing. I suspect that you're arguing what I am: instructors who start going through the system and throwing out all the stuff that THEY may not need are in fact--not always but all too often--burning bridges that their students need.

That's all there is to my point. Sheesh--and, no doubt, this post will also draw some sort of yelling. Oh well.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Um...ahh. Sean? bubbeleh? I kinda mostly been there while these Tips get filmed?



I'll try one last time, bubba.

That's all there is to my point. Sheesh--and, no doubt, this post will also draw some sort of yelling. Oh well.

WHO YOU CALLING BUBBA, YOU IVORY TOWERED...
Thats about all the yelling I will do. I see your point, and I suppose I can agree somewhat; however, all these forms and sets can be tried and explored with real bodies, making your point only partialy true. I often come away from your posts wondering what the heck you just said; so, this must have been one of those cases. (set bad)
Sean

 

[michaeledward]

OK ... I've just scaned this thread for the answer to a question that came up on the matt this morning. What is Co-ordination Set #2.

I learned the set with these moves:

From a Training Horse:

• Step back into a Left Neutral Bow while executing a Left Vertical Outward Block and Right Downward Block.
• Switch to a Right Vertical Outward Block and Left Downward Block.
• Switch to a Left Forward Bow while executing a Right Inward Block and a Left Upward Block.
• Switch to a Left Neutral Bow, Right Upward Block and Left Inward Block.
• Switch to a Left Forward Bow, while executing a Right Inward Block, as the Left Fist Cocks at the Left Hip.
• Execute a Left Horizontal Thrust Punch and a Right Front Ball Kick (right fist to hip?)
• Execute a Right Horizontal Thrust Punch and a Right Rear Kick (left fist to hip?)
• Land in a Left Forward Bow while executing a Left Upward Parry and a Right Push Down Block.
• Step forward to a Right Neutral Bow and repeat this process through all four directions, and repeating the sequence at 12 O'Clock to close (10 times through the process total).

One of the instructors at the studio learned the first two combinations as Universal Blocks (i.e. Left Inward-Right Downward to Right Inward-Left Downward.)
Another of the instructors runs this set as Left Inward-Right Downward to Right Inward-Left Outward.

Anyhow, the head instructor was not in class this morning. And we have a Brown Belt test and Brown Belt review test tomorrow. So I am sure I will find out how he wants to perform this set tomorrow.

How do you guys run these first two sequences?

Thanks - Mike

Oh, by the way ... Hated these when I learned them ... but they are OK now ... I enjoy running them, wether filler or not.

 

[pete]

hi michael...

we do the first sequence as universal blocks ...

also, we do the second sequence as upblock/hammer fist combinations

and, the transitional move before the kicks as a knuckle rake across the bridge of the nose rather than inblocks.

the final neutral bow guarding stance, we put an emphasis on the hand position: the "upper hand" comes in to replace your previous punch with a heel palm/contact check to the face and the "lower hand" checks against a knee strike to your groin.

for kicks (yeah... i have no life), i like to put C-set 1 and 2 together by either alternating each quadrant (C1 to 12:00, C2 to 9:00, etc) or alternating on each side (C2 left C1 right, turn...)

enjoy...

 

[Brother John]

Read good already. Set bad, therefore dropped. It teach bad motion and principles.

What a strange way for an intelligent professor to word things.

Plain points, Mr. John.

Plain points, ok. But are you saying you agree or disagree. Just wondering.
...oh, and you don't have to call me "Mr.", you can just call me John.

Often, students need places to hide out from, or to detour around, the violence of martial arts. It's not a question of what they should think; it's a question of what they do think. (Note: this is something I first heard articulated by larry tatum, just a footnote.)

Are you saying then that the worth of these sets is that they have nothing to do with the application of Kenpo? Guess I don't understand what you mean by they have to "hide out from" what it is they signed up to study in the first place. Kenpo is violent, no doubt about it. But if what they want to do is to seek to stay away from violence, why not take up yoga?

Second...uh, Short Form 1...I see that all stright lines are circles, but...uh...you don't consider those first two inward blocks to be linear? or strikes? To say nothing of the back elbows? Hm.

True. The inward blocks are circular, but their 'intent' is very different than that of a strike. Blocks are strikes and strikes are blocks and the only thing that differentiates them is the intent, right? So my projection of force forward with the block in the form isn't the major concern, it is creating an angle of deflection in the attacker (primarily his attacking limb); which I can do while moving to the rear. But a strike relies in it's projection of force along it's angle of incidence, and the force projected by the strike in coordination sets I & II is to 12:00 AS you step down toward 6:00...negating the forward projection of force. The punches executed in long form one don't occur as you step back, but directly after solidifying your base. The way these sets are done you don't solidify prior to the strike at all.
Now to the subject of the back elbows. Yes, these sets contain back elbows. But I must say, at the risk of sounding flippant, so what? What doesn't teach back elbows in Kenpo? There is a 'back elbow' in a great many of the techniques and sets... is the one redeaming factor of the coordination sets really "back elbows"? Why bother? Long before the student gets to the point of needing to learn these sets (according to the old curriculum) they've done thousands of back elbows. Yes they are linear, so?
hmmm...

Your Brother
John

 

[Rainman]

True. The inward blocks are circular, but their 'intent' is very different than that of a strike. Blocks are strikes and strikes are blocks and the only thing that differentiates them is the intent, right? So my projection of force forward with the block in the form isn't the major concern, it is creating an angle of deflection in the attacker (primarily his attacking limb); which I can do while moving to the rear. But a strike relies in it's projection of force along it's angle of incidence, and the force projected by the strike in coordination sets I & II is to 12:00 AS you step down toward 6:00...negating the forward projection of force. The punches executed in long form one don't occur as you step back, but directly after solidifying your base. The way these sets are done you don't solidify prior to the strike at all.
Now to the subject of the back elbows. Yes, these sets contain back elbows. But I must say, at the risk of sounding flippant, so what? What doesn't teach back elbows in Kenpo? There is a 'back elbow' in a great many of the techniques and sets... is the one redeaming factor of the coordination sets really "back elbows"? Why bother? Long before the student gets to the point of needing to learn these sets (according to the old curriculum) they've done thousands of back elbows. Yes they are linear, so?
hmmm...

Your Brother
John

I like this post. Let me add something to your philosophy, change intent to zone cancellation thus creating (and cancelling) targets. I had a nice conversation with Doc Chapel the other day which, intern, led to another discussion with my own teacher about this very topic. Zone cancellation of the opponent limits his ability to strike effectively and therefore creates the block in many ways instead of just deflection. Also because a block is defined as a deflection, it takes a certain amount of force to cause a deflection the initial target of the block (point of contact) should be considered greatly. The reason why is because of the chain of events that follow internally. I mean to say things like blood pressure, involuntary muscle flexion... there are many others but I am beginning to ramble so let me know what you think.

Your Bro
Rainman

 

[Kenpo_Chick]

Ok here's my opinion. From completing these forms (Coordination Set 1 for Purple Belt and Coordination Set 2 for my green belt) my opinion is as below:


Coordination Set 1
This set I believe teaches you how to breathe. To me it is one of the hardest sets (at a Purple belt level) to do hard, and if you do not breathe throughout the set you collapse!! (Simple fact of life!!). It also teaches the basics of coordinating your hands and feet together for your higher levels of self defence!! Have you noticed (on our syllabis here anyway) that on Purple your self defence moves begin to coordinate alot more between left and right!? and we also have to complete a Coordination Set 1 on the same syllabis?! (Coincidence?)

Coordination Set 2
This set I believe teaches us the advance moves of coordinating our hands and feet together with multiple moves while trying to balance. This is required for Green Belt and yet on the 1st Brown Syllabis we have the self defence move "Unfurling Crane" which we have to kick and learn how to achieve power with a knife hand while in crane!! (Coincidence? I think not!)

Well that's my 2 cents worth...