Co-ordination Set #1 & #2

[Rainman]

OK Chad. I'd hate to not follow my own advice. But please tell me, what does it mean to "talk to some smack"?
Here's how I feel man.
Someone asks something, answer it. Don't condem them for feeling/thinking something other than what you believe. If he has a differing view...talk it out. Maybe he has a good point or maybe you could share your good point and both can grow. This cutting down crap cheapens any effort to share or ask others what they think. People didn't try to have a dialogue with him about these sets and what they do or don't do (until later, like Mr. Mike's insightful reply).
But hey...Chad.... "the beav"....
Nice.
Thanks for making my point about the kind of rude/mean 7th grade banter that cheapens and corrodes these forums...like the post just previous to this one.

Your Bro.
John

Learn to read Beav. I put my point of view up first and foremost. I am most critical of people like you who say nothing about AK. And I mean nothing. You John make your own point. There is no information in any of your posts. Not one thing in about cooridination set in your post. Nothing. As is the same with all of your posts. You just like to jump on the bandwagon with some other rah rah types when the flaming begins. You determine my posts are negative yet I see nothing in your current post as positive. You cannot even follow your own line of reasoning. Nothing about kenpo as usual. C'mon John, be honest you like the drama otherwise you would not have butted into someone elses conversation to voice an opinion on nothing but the 7th grade semantics you so deplore...

Like I said before dude- you are boring and bring no information to the table. Put up or shut up. I challenge you to acutually say something about coordination set instead of moaning about how hurt your feelings are

Your Bro
Rainman

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

I hope that we have a chance to meet some day to train. LOL

No, you really don't want that.

Dark Lord

 

[Michael Billings]

See#6 in "Notes" below:
​

COORDINATION SET #1

​

CONTAINS:
1. Moves that are singular in motion but dual in purpose.
2. Basic stances:

a. training horse
b. cat stance used as a transitional move
c. neutral bow
d. forward bow
​

3. Basic blocks:

a. vertical outward
b. inward block used as a transitional move
​

4. Four basic angle changes before repeating the second side.
5. Defensive moves that can readily change into offense moves.
6. Stance changes while punching.
7. 90 Degree directional angle change.

TEACHES:
1. How to synchronize moves while retreating or advancing.
2. How to create distance.
3. How to close distance.
4. How to attack the various zones of protection.
5. The utilization of minor and major moves.
6. The utilization of opposing forces as an offense.
7. How to change a defense into an offense
8. How to apply torque while punching.
9. Simultaneous moves - opposite arm and leg usage.
10. Simultaneous moves - same arm and leg usage.
11. How to utilize defensive and offensive moves while retreating or advancing in a straight line.
12. The proper use of Center Mass and Mid-Point Balance.


NOTES ON COORDINATION SET #1

1. When stepping forward (as well as when covering), be sure to utilize the DOUBLE FACTOR in your blocks.
2. Work segments of this set on a partner to study how you can simultaneously attack Height, Width and Depth Zones.
3. The set teaches you how to properly use torque when punching. Be sure to always use the Counter Torque of the hand that is cocking to the rear.
4. Practice the set in an environment that requires you to "switch" rather than stepping forward. When switching in this set, have your rear foot move to the front and then the front foot move to the rear.
5. Be conscious of your head level during the set.
6. Remember that this is a set for developing coordination. The key ingredient for developing coordination is "repetition".
7. Study the use of Reverse Motion throughout this Set.
8. Experiment with thrusting your kicks vs snapping them.
9. This Set is an excellent opportunity to discover how to properly execute a punch when pivoting from a neutral bow to a forward bow.
10. The action in this Set may be compared to that of a whip. Investigate how a whip derives its power.

No, nobody has to do Coordination Set 1 to learn this, but it is a place where you can learn and analyze Motion. Coordination Set 2? Well, analyze - or don't analyze; practice or don't practice. Filler, huh? Amazing to me what people don't know they don't know. Just don't do it if you don't like it, but don't try to lengthen you own line by cutting someone else's short (Joe Hyams in Zen & the Martial Arts).

-Michael

 

[Touch Of Death]

Hi, I just have a question. who amoung you waits for your kicking leg to be fully planted before throwing the final punch of the basic sequence? I wait until my foot is fully planted myself. It creates a pause but I can live with it. I was taught to punch with the plant, and not after, originaly. What do you all do?

 

[rmcrobertson]

I agree; among the things these two sets teach is coordinating planting with the strike, not before or after it. Then too, the set also helps with distinguishing among, a) striking with your foot up and your weight up; b) striking with your foot down but your weight up; c) striking with your foot down and your weight down but not pivot of the rear foot; d) striking with your foot down, your weight down, and the rear foot turning into the strike.

Then there's the whole thing about settling, and not over-settling, one of my main flaws--ah well, "the life so short, the craft so long to learn," despite the occasional Mozart and those who fantasize otherwise.

And that's just what I understand so far. But in brief, I agree.

 

[Ceicei]

"...it is a place where you can learn and analyze Motion."
-Michael

Michael,

Thank you for these notes. I knew about some of them, but what you have listed has given me another view, a fresh perspective, to these sets.
I enjoy doing the sets and thank you for allowing me to learn more.

- Ceicei

 

[Brother John]

Learn to read Beav. I put my point of view up first and foremost. I am most critical of people like you who say nothing about AK. And I mean nothing. You John make your own point. There is no information in any of your posts. Not one thing in about cooridination set in your post. Nothing. As is the same with all of your posts. You just like to jump on the bandwagon with some other rah rah types when the flaming begins. You determine my posts are negative yet I see nothing in your current post as positive. You cannot even follow your own line of reasoning. Nothing about kenpo as usual. C'mon John, be honest you like the drama otherwise you would not have butted into someone elses conversation to voice an opinion on nothing but the 7th grade semantics you so deplore...

Like I said before dude- you are boring and bring no information to the table. Put up or shut up. I challenge you to acutually say something about coordination set instead of moaning about how hurt your feelings are

Your Bro
Rainman

Hey Chad...
starting to think you don't like me.
Could you clear that up for me??

Listen, this is rediculous.
You want to know what I think about the coordination sets?
OK.
I'm glad that they are no longer required curriculum in the association I belong to because, despite the fact that once you get used to them...they are kinda fun...I don't move like that when fighting. There are no techniques that I'd ever need that those sets would improve the perfomance of. I do think that, to an extent, it's filler work. Maybe that's an unpopular view overall...but it's truly what I think. I learned them, I even still practice them... but only (as I said) they are kinda fun and 2 does work very well for an overall body warmup. (Once I even included doing the set in sort of a loop for 10 minutes as a part of my aerobic conditioning program) Making students learn sets like this by rote (and like kicking set.... don't get me started on kicking set) is, in the end, time that could have been better spent on something functional. Coordination??? Try getting the first couple dozen SD-techs down right...fluid and fast. Coordination will come through training in our art much more easily than in some contrived set that doesn't resemble any other facet of the way I move or the way the techs in our art move.
I don't settle back and punch forward, there's no harmony of motion in that. Who executes a front ball kick while punching with the opposite hand? Come on...

There ya go Rainman. I stepped forward to your silly challenge. Now can we get past the teenage angst and treat each other like civil men?? Can we sometimes agree to disagree or at least not make such broad claims who's boring (sorry I don't entertain you) or name calling or whatever.
chill chad, you'll have heart problems if you carry that crap around too long.

Your Brother
John

 

[Rainman]

Hey Chad...
starting to think you don't like me.
Could you clear that up for me??

Listen, this is rediculous.
You want to know what I think about the coordination sets?
OK.
I'm glad that they are no longer required curriculum in the association I belong to because, despite the fact that once you get used to them...they are kinda fun...I don't move like that when fighting. There are no techniques that I'd ever need that those sets would improve the perfomance of. I do think that, to an extent, it's filler work. Maybe that's an unpopular view overall...but it's truly what I think. I learned them, I even still practice them... but only (as I said) they are kinda fun and 2 does work very well for an overall body warmup. (Once I even included doing the set in sort of a loop for 10 minutes as a part of my aerobic conditioning program) Making students learn sets like this by rote (and like kicking set.... don't get me started on kicking set) is, in the end, time that could have been better spent on something functional. Coordination??? Try getting the first couple dozen SD-techs down right...fluid and fast. Coordination will come through training in our art much more easily than in some contrived set that doesn't resemble any other facet of the way I move or the way the techs in our art move.
I don't settle back and punch forward, there's no harmony of motion in that. Who executes a front ball kick while punching with the opposite hand? Come on...

There ya go Rainman. I stepped forward to your silly challenge. Now can we get past the teenage angst and treat each other like civil men?? Can we sometimes agree to disagree or at least not make such broad claims who's boring (sorry I don't entertain you) or name calling or whatever.
chill chad, you'll have heart problems if you carry that crap around too long.

Your Brother
John

I appreciate the step up. Don't forget the use of opposite and reverses. Kicking with the right and punching with the left as the right plants is not such a bad technique in free fighting. The old walking tek, and a natural movement as shown in book 1 (an extrapolation). I don't use CS 1 or 2 either and basically have some of the same sentiments as you do. As your curriculi doesn't use it neither does mine. It is something to look at and may be usefull when formulating by changing planes of the strikes as well as targets. But again that is formulation and must be shown to a student especially if they have only 2 or 3 years of study. The sets are just appendices and the same movements exist elsewhere but if the version someone is studying contains CS 1 and 2 it is up to the teacher to extrapolate all they can from it and pass the information on to their students.

Forums cause me no stress- They are cheap entertainment when the mud ducks come out and a place to learn and grow when the talk gets conceptual. Sometimes we are mud ducks and sometimes we fly above it or around it.

Your bro
Rainman

 

[Brother John]

I appreciate the step up. Don't forget the use of opposite and reverses. Kicking with the right and punching with the left as the right plants is not such a bad technique in free fighting. The old walking tek, and a natural movement as shown in book 1 (an extrapolation). I don't use CS 1 or 2 either and basically have some of the same sentiments as you do. As your curriculi doesn't use it neither does mine. It is something to look at and may be usefull when formulating by changing planes of the strikes as well as targets. But again that is formulation and must be shown to a student especially if they have only 2 or 3 years of study. The sets are just appendices and the same movements exist elsewhere but if the version someone is studying contains CS 1 and 2 it is up to the teacher to extrapolate all they can from it and pass the information on to their students.

Forums cause me no stress- They are cheap entertainment when the mud ducks come out and a place to learn and grow when the talk gets conceptual. Sometimes we are mud ducks and sometimes we fly above it or around it.

Your bro
Rainman

I agree about the those other elements that you brought up, the other things that the sets teach... I agree that these sets do teach these things, but my problem is that there are other parts of our art that teach these same principles/elements...but are functional. Like the Prago comercial says...it's in there.
Later man...
Your Brother (flying around it)
John

 

[Michael Billings]

Good Recovery guys. I appreciate your getting back on topic ... not that I agree with you, but I appreciate not having to lock the thread due to the level of general rudeness that was starting to happen.

I personally like watching mud ducks and Forms and Sets have useful application to me. I do not even have to dig for it. When I learned them, the idea was an opponent should be able to step in at anytime and the technique be executed effectively. I did not learn all this catagory completion, full range of motion, etc. (the Huk model), until years later ... and I still resist it. I have to do it for my teacher, but on my own, I tend to do the Forms like I am fighting.

Sets are interesting in that it is how you relate to them as to the usefulness of them. Kicking Set is a Maneuver/Range/Strike Set to me, (after you learn to walk and chew gum), Coordination 1 is a nice lead jab (with counter-rotation) followed by a right cross, then I focus on the simultaineous kick punch, disturbing heigth & depth with the kick (long range) to bring a mid-range target (face) in range for the punch (borrowed force) etc. This is artificial in that I would not execute this particular combo ... probably, but a nice way to train the opposite hand/opposite leg strikes.

It is what you look for in the set, whether you want it to be useful, whether you want to even do them. Discarding them is your choice, yes you can learn the same things in techniques, on the bag, on the floor fighting ... it is just whether you want to do them or not ... and are you aware of the lessons they can teach.

I have no doubt at all Rainman and Bro' John know the "lessons" and pick them up elsewhere in the system, heck, John does them anyway for his own reasons ... so like I said, don't cut someone else's line short. Explain why you don't like them, but educate the less knowledgable with where the lessons are picked up elsewhere in the system.

Your knowledge and sharing of it IS APPRECIATED ALWAYS. Just sometimes the tones of the posts set people off. Please be aware of this and respectful of others.

I will lock this thread if it returns to the previous personal attacks. This is not intended to be directed at the people I mentioned above, but at previous posters also who set this up. Everyone has great stuff to contribute, DKL, John, and Rainman I just know. BlackPhoenix I do not know, but would ask to be aware of how you are coming across.

Once again, thanks guys for making my job so easy. I really appreciate your cleaning it up yourselves and wanted to publically acknowledge it.

-Michael

 

[Seig]

I'm throwing this in more or less as food for thought. Many of my students do not like the sets when they are first shown them. I was resistant to them and forms at first. I stress SD and Freestyle, my personal strengths. To make myself enjoy the sets more and to make my students see more value in them, I will take a part of a set, like kicking set for example, and execute it against a student at the particular level while sparring. To illistrate my point, when sparring an orange belt that has bitched about kicking set and tends to run away during sparring, I will drop back to a LNB and do the first wall of kicking set while chasing him/her down. After the second or third time I do it on them successfully, the light bulb goes off. I have done the same with coordination sets. At some point, while I am in teaching/sparring mode, I will run nearly everything in their belt's curriculuum on them. It helps drive the point of why we do it home. I have noticed that it also helps round out my own skills.

 

[Brother John]

Good Recovery guys. I appreciate your getting back on topic, I appreciate not having to lock the thread due to the level of general rudeness that was starting to happen.

Your knowledge and sharing of it IS APPRECIATED ALWAYS. Just sometimes the tones of the posts set people off. Please be aware of this and respectful of others.

Once again, thanks guys for making my job so easy. I really appreciate your cleaning it up yourselves and wanted to publically acknowledge it.

-Michael

Psalm 133:1
"Behold how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!"

No doubt Michael, and really... Chad (AKA: Rainman) did make a couple of good points:
1. I need to try to contribute more than JUST comment.
2. I need to look at myself first when trying to point out faults in others.
((((That whole "Remove the PLANK from thine own eye before trying to remove the speck from thine brothers eye" thing that Christ was trying to get across)))

I'll do my best.

I think I see what you guys are talking about with regards to the practice of the coordination sets and what they CAN teach you...
Guess I see it like this, they are usable... just not so useful.
At least, that's how I see it. NOT trying to shorten anyone elses line whatsoever. These sets are fine.

Your Brother
John

 

[Touch Of Death]

Hey Chad...
starting to think you don't like me.
Could you clear that up for me??

Listen, this is rediculous.
You want to know what I think about the coordination sets?
OK.
I'm glad that they are no longer required curriculum in the association I belong to because, despite the fact that once you get used to them...they are kinda fun...I don't move like that when fighting. There are no techniques that I'd ever need that those sets would improve the perfomance of. I do think that, to an extent, it's filler work. Maybe that's an unpopular view overall...but it's truly what I think. I learned them, I even still practice them... but only (as I said) they are kinda fun and 2 does work very well for an overall body warmup. (Once I even included doing the set in sort of a loop for 10 minutes as a part of my aerobic conditioning program) Making students learn sets like this by rote (and like kicking set.... don't get me started on kicking set) is, in the end, time that could have been better spent on something functional. Coordination??? Try getting the first couple dozen SD-techs down right...fluid and fast. Coordination will come through training in our art much more easily than in some contrived set that doesn't resemble any other facet of the way I move or the way the techs in our art move.
I don't settle back and punch forward, there's no harmony of motion in that. Who executes a front ball kick while punching with the opposite hand? Come on...

There ya go Rainman. I stepped forward to your silly challenge. Now can we get past the teenage angst and treat each other like civil men?? Can we sometimes agree to disagree or at least not make such broad claims who's boring (sorry I don't entertain you) or name calling or whatever.
chill chad, you'll have heart problems if you carry that crap around too long.

Your Brother
John

couldn't you alter your coordination set to deal with how to launch a reverse punch after planting a kick off the back leg? If you are not happy with the way you do it now then work on it. Couldn't you have more than one way to do the set for each move depending on an advancing or retreating opponent? what about the first half of that kick punch thing? couldn't you check and knee strike at the same time? If your not willing to use the tools provided for you by Mr. Parker, then by all means throw it out, but please don't announce your reasons. They aren't valid. :asian:
Sean

 

[Kenpodoc]

couldn't you alter your coordination set to deal with how to launch a reverse punch after planting a kick off the back leg? If you are not happy with the way you do it now then work on it. Couldn't you have more than one way to do the set for each move depending on an advancing or retreating opponent? what about the first half of that kick punch thing? couldn't you check and knee strike at the same time? If your not willing to use the tools provided for you by Mr. Parker, then by all means throw it out, but please don't announce your reasons. They aren't valid. :asian:
Sean

Why shouldn't John announce his reasons? Why the name calling? Why does everyone think Mr. Parker thought that there was only one way to learn Kenpo?

Jeff

 

[Kenpodoc]

I'm throwing this in more or less as food for thought. Many of my students do not like the sets when they are first shown them. I was resistant to them and forms at first. I stress SD and Freestyle, my personal strengths. To make myself enjoy the sets more and to make my students see more value in them, I will take a part of a set, like kicking set for example, and execute it against a student at the particular level while sparring. To illistrate my point, when sparring an orange belt that has bitched about kicking set and tends to run away during sparring, I will drop back to a LNB and do the first wall of kicking set while chasing him/her down. After the second or third time I do it on them successfully, the light bulb goes off. I have done the same with coordination sets. At some point, while I am in teaching/sparring mode, I will run nearly everything in their belt's curriculuum on them. It helps drive the point of why we do it home. I have noticed that it also helps round out my own skills.

Thanks for a useful and an appropriate response to the question. There is all too much "because Mr. Parker said so", going on here.

Thanks,

Jeff

 

[Brother John]

couldn't you alter your coordination set to deal with how to launch a reverse punch after planting a kick off the back leg?

WHY? I've got techniques that do that. Besides, baring these very few techniques, I seldom bring a kick from the back leg without first setting it up with something else. To me a kick from the back leg is a finisher, providing I've already given them a major stun. Therefore I don't see myself needing to plant and then punch. Also, I don't kick and then pull the kicking leg back behind the 'point of no return', back to the same stance it came from. AND to punch forward while planting back? That goes against some of the most elementary lessons in Kenpo.

Couldn't you have more than one way to do the set for each move depending on an advancing or retreating opponent?

The amount of alteration your suggestion implies would change it so much as to make it no longer identifiable as a coordination set. Also, SETs do not deal with either an advancing or retreating opponent. They are an appendix of motion, but their context is solo. IF I were to alter them to comply with sound principles AND alter them to deal with either an advancing or retreating opponent...its not a set anymore, it's a technique. I've already got enough techniques.

what about the first half of that kick punch thing? couldn't you check and knee strike at the same time?

Sure I could, but I've got already existing techniques that do exactly that, and they do it within the context of an active/dynamic technique (Such as "Divided Fury")...with moves before and after it...making it more realistic and more aligned with the way I move. Why take the time to alter a sets movement/interpretation in order to do what already existing techniques are accomplishing...better? Seems like I'd be doing just to be able to say that I've not done away with coordination set.

If your not willing to use the tools provided for you by Mr. Parker, then by all means throw it out

Did I say I've thrown it out? :lookie:
No, I said I do it, but for different reasons. It's fun. It's good exercise.
You seem to be suggesting that I blindly accept these sets without trying to evaluate their worth or the effect of having them in my training regimen. At the behest of every instructor in Kenpo that I've ever had...I question everything....because if you don't ask questions, you don't get answers. Am I suggesting "Kenpo Heresy" Sean? It's not a matter of being "willing to use the tools provided for me by Mr. Parker".

please don't announce your reasons. They aren't valid.

Really Sean?
My reasons/points aren't valid? They don't agree with your beliefs so they are a priori wrong?
Please tell me why my reasons are wrong.
Furthermore, please tell me why I shouldn't "announce" them. Didn't know I was broadcasting, thought I was sharing my thoughts with other Kenpoists. Didn't think I had a prohibition from participating in this Open forum.
If there are any other guidelines or hidden policies here in Your forum that I'm not aware of Sean, please let me know.

Your Brother
John

 

[Touch Of Death]

Why shouldn't John announce his reasons? Why the name calling? Why does everyone think Mr. Parker thought that there was only one way to learn Kenpo?

Jeff

And the name I called him was?

 

[Brother John]

Thanks for a useful and an appropriate response to the question. There is all too much "because Mr. Parker said so", going on here.

Thanks,
Jeff

There's been More. :soapbox:

don't announce your reasons. They aren't valid.

Your Brother
John

 

[Touch Of Death]

WHY? I've got techniques that do that. Besides, baring these very few techniques, I seldom bring a kick from the back leg...


Really Sean?
My reasons/points aren't valid? They don't agree with your beliefs so they are a priori wrong?
Please tell me why my reasons are wrong.
Furthermore, please tell me why I shouldn't "announce" them. Didn't know I was broadcasting, thought I was sharing my thoughts with other Kenpoists. Didn't think I had a prohibition from participating in this Open forum.
If there are any other guidelines or hidden policies here in Your forum that I'm not aware of Sean, please let me know.

Your Brother
John

Sorry, it was late when I read that and felt a disagreement. I also was not aware that you only do step through kicks, that would explain a lot about why you don't like this set. Why play with plant punch concepts when you will never do it? Sets, however, are not motion for motion sake. Its OK to play with them to see what you come up with... honest. By the way what elementary lesson of kenpo does cooridination set break again? I don't remember reading anywhere that it was not kenpo to step back while punching forward. Please direct me to that passage; I'm willing to learn. Sorry for the attitude before :asian:
Sean

 

[rmcrobertson]

1. I'm not sure I understand why it's a Bad Thing to have a set that teaches students to do stuff like punch effectively as they're recovering a kick.

2. You folks are forgetting that a) not every student is incredibly talented and capable of extracting this stuff from techniques; b) not every student is incredibly ready to clash with the emotional content of martial arts--they need detours, alibis and safe havens in the system; c) students need places to develop THEIR talents, not their teacher's; d) beginning students are not black belts, in whom it is fairly proper to start rethinking what they've been doing.

3. Short Form 1, and a buncha yellow belt techniques as I know them, teach stepping back with a strike.

4. Just off the toppa me head, Thrusting Salute, Buckling Branch, Gift of Destruction, Checking the Storm, and a boatload of others feature back-leg, step-through kicks...