Club, Knife and Gun Defenses.....

[MisterMike]

I see that a basic motion can have more than 1 application, but "nip the tip" would be considered a minor shot, and not a major. Usually I wouldn't end a technique with a minor.(eye hooks/pokes excluded)

By the definition I practice by, this portion of Short 2 would not constitute a self-defense technique. It may be a technique of this or that, such as opposing forces( 1 up and 1 down) but I just wanted to clarify where I was coming from.

But now it leads to another thing. What should a self-defense technique do? When it is "over"?

Delayed Sword has 1 Defensive move and 2 offensive (as I learned it - block, kick chop). At most, th eopponent is bent over, but could still have some fight left in them. So you can put on an ending, take them to the ground and stomp around a bit.

But the S.D. Tech Delayed Sword ends at the kick by definition.

I think a S.D. Tech should have an entry, base and ending.

So that would be at least 3 moves.

 

[Michael Billings]

But we have techniques like Sword and Hammer or Deflecting Hammer that do not fit your definition, unless you "count" the stance as the "base" and it does not sound like you are. I am suggesting your definition may be a bit limiting (only to yourself or your students of course.)

I personally experienced Mr. Parker, Huk, and Tom Kelly all "Nipping the Tip" and the downward rake did not feel minor at all, as the fist was "fitted" into my solar plexus on the way to the nip ... basically, by all 3 of them. This was over the course of the '80's at different seminars or camps.

You may consider "broadening" your perspective a bit to be tolerant of others experience or interpretation. Don't feel like I don't respect your perspective and experience, I do. Mine is just different. I like the way you have chosen to define a technique, there is nothing wrong with it at all. You have a logical construct, or paridigm, that works for you.

Oss,
-Michael

 

[MisterMike]

OH I know

But you have to watch out for those whacky yellow belt techniques. They're sort of in a category of their own.

And don't worry, I'm open to other perspectives and I think one of the benefitting characteristics of Kenpo is that it has a set of definitions, rules and principles so that we can all talk the same language.

My or anyone's definitions would never be limiting, so long as what we use is consistant. From there, we get our viewpoints.:asian:

By not being willing to interpret motion in the forms, that would be a limiting move for me and my students.

 

[rmcrobertson]

It might be good to be careful about overlooking some of the intermediate moves, such as transitions, and the inserts/adaptations/overtones of "single," moves in the forms.

For example, in Short 2, couldn't you say that the, "technique," doesn't start with the block-and-knuckle...it starts with the rear cross-and-cover ffrom the right neutral bow to 3:00...and similarly, the "tech," doesn't "end with the knuckle, but with the cover to 12:00.

Similarly, with say Long 1, I tend to think that there's a lot tucked away in those first coupla moves...

Thanks.

 

[Michael Billings]

I agree 100%

-Michael

 

[psi_radar]

I'd have to disagree too. That outward block could break their radial bone and the raking knuckle, with enough penetration, could cause serious internal damage (lacerated liver for one) as well as hydroshock that will take the fight out of just about all but the most committed opponent. Think of traditional Karate systems which rely on very simple, yet precise, and powerful techniques--there are people out there that use these very effectively.

Just my 2 cents, you're welcome to retain your opinion.

 

[psi_radar]

Getting back to the main topic, one of the things I'm working toward is dealing with the mental aspects of facing the weapons and Kenpo in general--the adrenal dump and retaining your water when faced with a live weapon or a committed opponent. I think it's fine and good to play with replicas of the real thing, but in the final stages of training, an uke would have to be able to induce real fear and anger to test the techniques' worthiness and advance the student's ability to use them in true simulation.

"Fear is the mind-killer."--Frank Herbert.

 

[Michael Billings]

"... it is the little death. Allow it to pass over you and through you..." -Frank Herbert

Great idea and training. The way we simulate this is increased speed and power, with intent to actually bop you if you don't move. This increases anxiety, if not actual fear. Then you get to train Mushin (another thread) and practice trying to relax while moving, remembering tight muscles are slow muscles.

We go back to softer weapons at this level ... unless we don't. But 98% of the time we use a softer weapon.

 

[kenpo12]

My definition of a technique is one defensive move and at least 2 offensive.

So if someone throws a hay maker punch at me, and I cut their circle and knock them out with a straight right punch, that's not a self defense technique?

 

[MisterMike]

Originally posted by kenpo12
So if someone throws a hay maker punch at me, and I cut their circle and knock them out with a straight right punch, that's not a self defense technique?

I'd say that's a technique cut short, and a big IF.

Do you study one shot techniques?

 

[Rainman]

Originally posted by MisterMike
But now it leads to another thing. What should a self-defense technique do? When it is "over"?

Delayed Sword has 1 Defensive move and 2 offensive (as I learned it - block, kick chop). At most, th eopponent is bent over, but could still have some fight left in them. So you can put on an ending, take them to the ground and stomp around a bit.

But the S.D. Tech Delayed Sword ends at the kick by definition.

I think a S.D. Tech should have an entry, base and ending.

So that would be at least 3 moves.

1. Control 2 out of 3 dimensions

2. Knock out, manipulation control, __________ you add one.

3. Block, kick, chop. The handsword is at least a stunning blow, I said at least...

4. An entry can be a slip with a punch sweep combo. There's a whole tek utilizing oppossing forces on the punch sweep combo. Or combine combinations so they are one movement. What is a punch sweep combo? Could be likened to a forward bow and reverse punch- Long 1?

 

[kenpo12]

Do you study one shot techniques?

Yes, I do. I do practice knocking out my opponent with one punch. I think that is a perfectly valid technique and the most efficient way to end a fight. I do have follow ups planned if needed but I don't see any reason to run a 10 move technique if I can hit a guy once and it's over.

 

[MisterMike]

Originally posted by Rainman
1. Control 2 out of 3 dimensions

2. Knock out, manipulation control, __________ you add one.

3. Block, kick, chop. The handsword is at least a stunning blow, I said at least...

4. An entry can be a slip with a punch sweep combo. There's a whole tek utilizing oppossing forces on the punch sweep combo. Or combine combinations so they are one movement. What is a punch sweep combo? Could be likened to a forward bow and reverse punch- Long 1?

Oops, I meant D.S. ends at the chop. I was pretty tired last night.

Kenpo12:

I agree the fight can be ended at any moment. I'm simply stating that a self-defense technique has the defensive and offenseive items I mentioned earlier. If you happen to use them all or not, no difference.

But it sounds like you are saying you'd teach a technique that has 1 block and 1 punch. No more.

 

[kenpo12]

The first two moves of Attacking Mace I would consider a technique. You could even do the moves simultaneously and make it one move.

 

[MisterMike]

OK fair enough. I happen to like a similar sequence in Calming the Storm.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by kenpo12
I don't see any reason to run a 10 move technique if I can hit a guy once and it's over.

Are you sure you're doing Kenpo?

Speaking of soft weapons, I know a number of FMA people who eventually do live blade sparring and I understand that the RMA people will do it too. I would never do this in a school setting--think of the liability alone--and would be unlikely to do it in most private settings. That takes a lot of trust! But the point from the other thread about the heaviness and hardness of a real handgun makes a lot of sense to me. Certainly, I think there's a lot of value to using aluminum training knives.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by arnisador
Are you sure you're doing Kenpo?

Speaking of soft weapons, I know a number of FMA people who eventually do live blade sparring and I understand that the RMA people will do it too. I would never do this in a school setting--think of the liability alone--and would be unlikely to do it in most private settings. That takes a lot of trust! But the point from the other thread about the heaviness and hardness of a real handgun makes a lot of sense to me. Certainly, I think there's a lot of value to using aluminum training knives.

Arnisador,

I have done some live blade training before. One or two trusted students and my blade, and I had it to them. I am no knife master, and no knife expert. To add to safety, put invisible tape over the the edge of the blade. Yes stabs are still dangerous, and you still can get cut, yet in my experience it is more like a paper cut. Not recommended for everyone. Most of the time we use Aluminum Training Knives.

:asian:

 

[Cruentus]

I think live blade training is vital to understand the blade. But I am talking more along the lines of cutting drills and such (cardboard, paper, meat).

I don't think live blade training is important for sparring. Yes, I have done it before. It's O.K. for "blade awareness". But, to me, I think its actually less realistic, because with an aluminum trainer my partner isn't afraid to attack me with intent, but I find that with a "trusted" partner, this means they are "trusted" because they aren't REALLY going to stab or cut you. Plus, Blade awareness can be taught safely with an aluminum trainer.

So, I don't recommend live blade partner work. It's just not nessicary, and only opens you up to the possability of injury.

PAUL

 

[Cruentus]

O.K....

Now let me put my last post in the context of what this thread is about.

I think that realistic training is VITAL to understanding how weapons work, and how to defend against them. In FMA, in my class, we train with stick primarily, and knife and short sword secondary. It's not possible to train in every circumstance, all the time; and if you try (Today we used sticks with the lights off, the day before, we used knives while barefoot in the snow, and tomorrow we will spar amty hand VS. Bow staff in between 2 cars....now who wants to volunteer their cars? ) you'll only succeed in being extremely inefficient; a "jack of all trades."


So, stick to what you do (whatever that is, froms, sparring, empty hands, or whatever), and work on getting extremely proficient at that.

BUT, it is good, every now and again, to do scenario training while using more realistic tools. Bats, ax-handles, bottles, rocks, belts, etc. You'll be suprised at your ability (as my students are) to translate what you already know (whether its Kenpo, FMA, or whatever) to the situation. These excersises are more designed to get your mind accustomed to "translating" what you know under pressure for self defense, rather then trying to become accustomed to every circumstance.

Any "real life" circumstance will NEVER resemble exactly your circumstance in the training hall, but your techniques will work if you can translate them into your circumstance when needed.

:asian:

btw...when doing scenario, improvised weapon, or "realistic training, I think safty is key. If you use a plastic bottle instead of a real one, or an aluminum dagger instead of a live blade, the realistic feel of the weapon sill still be there, yet your partner can realisticly try to hit you without hesitation. And...its always good to live to train another day!

 

[Michael Billings]

I will bring in some plastic coke bottles to simulate the real thing. I like the idea. Careful with the bo v. knife ... and no, you cannot be next to my truck!!! It sounds like a Dog Brothers thing, taken back one notch, which I like. A lot of the Inosanto JKD/FMA guys I know, tape their blades, but it is with duct tape or electricians tape, not scotch tape, that can be sliced right through.

I just don't believe in serious training injuries to mimic realism ... it just puts you off training for too long and you have to heal. You have to have intensity and approach realism, but an extreme example is: I have friends that bang for real, we are talking cracked ribs and busted noses or knockouts, including grappling, so hyperextended elbows and blown out knees happen. This is not an occasional occurrence, but happens all the time to one of them on the circuit. To me this is just too much, unless you are really defending your life. The healing time and risk of permanent injury alone is a deterrent.

By the by ... do any of you know how hard it is to get a one-punch knockout? Lots of luck It is extremely hard, even when trained specifically for this. The human body can take a lot of abuse, and it is an extremely rare case when you get a one punch KO. Ask any law enforcement guy. One of my friends summed it up by saying "You can't knock 'em out (the perp) with one punch, I know cuz I have tried". He started some BJJ, since a cop's job, generally, is control and restraint. But when he was a jailer and somebody lost it, he tried to nail 'em. This boy has some guns (biceps & triceps) on him and can still do jump spin reverse crescent kicks at 200 lbs. He trained with Brian Duffy, moved to California and trained with John Sepulveda and Sigung LaBounty.

My point is, that in any self-defense situation, especially against a weapon, don't think you are going to kick them in the groin and end it, or "Knock him out with one punch". I think it is very unsafe even to have this mindset. Every strike should potentially hit hard enough to be a KO, no matter where it lands, (not that they will go out if you hit them in the thigh as hard as you can). It is a matter of INTENT, TRAINING, and ATTITUDE.

Be safe,
-Michael