Basics, Basics, Basics

[Rich Parsons]

Don't mind at all for you Brother Parsons!!

I don't think the Basics would change over time however, I think the way in which we view or define them could. Basics are just that..... BASIC but the way in which we utilize them or view them from different perspectives as we mature could very well enhance our application and definition or usage of said basics.

Great thought!!! You 'da Man!! (or are you just trying to keep me on my toes........ LOL)

:asian:

Thank you for the reply, and I would state that it might be both, but we will go with just the later.

 

[bdparsons]

It's always good to remember that on any given day, regardless of the amount of material you've learned, you will be no better than your basics.

Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

 

[michaeledward]

Stances
Blocks
Parries
Punches
Strikes
Finger Techniques
Kicks
Foot Maneuvers
Body Maneuvers

Care to expand on 'Body Maneuvers'?

I have lists of the others from my studio. I know Infinite Insights talks about some body maneuvers (Bob and Weave - Dive - Roll, etc). Are those on your Basics list?

 

[Bode]

I agree with everything stated so far. Basics are the most important aspect of AK. I would like to point out one more thing.

Basics have applications that, at first, are not obvious. I'm sure you are all aware of this, but it requires mention.

An upward block suddenly becomes an arm break. A slap check suddenly becomes a strike when you elongate your circles. A vertical outward block becomes a strike to the jaw hinge (depending on range).

The most amazing aspect of Kenpo is the sophisticate basics. You can be performing a slap check for years and suddenly you realise the inherent advanced concepts within. However, unless the steps are taken to learn HOW to deliver the proper upward block and slap check, you can never learn the advanced aspects of the block. I could spend day's analyzing Short 1 and only scratch the surface of what is contained in the form.

More importantly, in a confrontation most will tend to rely on the basics more than anything else. Suddenly basics are the difference between life and death. Makes you think twice about being in a hurry to get to black.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

2 points to Smallville for hitting the nail on the head. That's really pretty much the name of the game, Bode. Years of practice lead to years of discovery, which lead to more years of practice. The unfolding layers of the Lotus.

The assumption of knowledge is the greatest barrier to learning.

Regards,

D

 

[kenpoworks]

The assumption of knowledge is the greatest barrier to learning.

So true.
It is also the barrier that trips us all up occasionally!

Richard

 

[Goldendragon7]

I agree with everything stated so far. Basics are the most important aspect of AK. I would like to point out one more thing.

Basics have applications that, at first, are not obvious. I'm sure you are all aware of this, but it requires mention.

Like I said in an earlier post..... "as we mature could very well enhance our application and definition or usage of said basics".

The most amazing aspect of Kenpo is the sophisticate basics.

Absolutely...... embryonic or sophisticated....... doesn't matter.... they are still basics..... I't wouldn't be the awesome system that it is if we didn't have new insights as we progress....... *wink*

You can be performing a slap check for years and suddenly you realise the inherent advanced concepts within.

Well, when I slap someone... they know it and I always check after all maneuvers.... block, strike, kick or whatever!


:ultracool

 

[thesensei]

So, I guess this begs the question ... what is the definition of a BASIC?

Basic (bA - sik) - adj. - and individual move or position which constitutes a fundamental point or action.
​

Another definition I have :

Simplified moves that comprise the fundamentals of Kenpo. They are divided into stances, maneuvers, blocks, strikes, specialized moves and methods.
​

Does anyone have a more clear, or more official definition?

Well, I found a definition in my notes "straight from the horse's mouth" (no disrespect intended :ultracool ).

Mr. Parker said (I believe in a video that I saw a while back):

Basics are all physical moves or gestures executed with specific intent or purpose. Depending upon how they are employed, they can be defensive, offensive, or can accomplish both purposes simultaneously. They can be used to oppose, ride, borrow, or steal force. Fake, sprain, dislocate, fracture, rupture, maim, rip, tear, claw, hook, poke, slice, rake, buckle, check, maneuver, trip, grab, block, twist, pinch, butt, bite, throw, pull, along with numerous other accomplishments.

This is a very broad definition...and I think rightly so. Remember, each self-defense technique consists of individual basics executed in a logical fashion for a specific intent or purpose. The sets and forms are the same way. If you have strong basics, it will be relatively easy to learn the flow of self-defense. If, on the other hand, your basics physical movement is lacking, your self-defense will be weak.

Hope this helps answer your question.

Salute,
JB

 

[rmcrobertson]

There's a lot of piety about basics. But from what I can see on these forums, and from what I've seen at a limited set of tournaments, whatever the majority of people say, there're relatively few who will actually practice them.

It seems they are too busy improving things.

 

[Bode]

There's a lot of piety about basics. But from what I can see on these forums, and from what I've seen at a limited set of tournaments, whatever the majority of people say, there're relatively few who will actually practice them.

I could not agree more. The majority of the time you don't even see a forward bow and, if I am not mistaken, that is pretty damn basic.

It seems they are too busy improving things.

...Or too busy trying to move as fast as possible... which I think is probably more common. It's easy to move fast when basics go out the window.

 

[Brother John]

There's a lot of piety about basics. But from what I can see on these forums, and from what I've seen at a limited set of tournaments, whatever the majority of people say, there're relatively few who will actually practice them.

It seems they are too busy improving things.

I'm not sure what you are saying with the last bit, but with the first paragraph...I think you are right on. There seems to be relatively few who are really into working hard on the fundamentals! That's because, I think, there are relatively few who exercise common sense and are willing to really drop sweat and work hard at the very foundation of their systems.

That's also why excellence is uncommon.

Your Brother
John

 

[Brother John]

...Or too busy trying to move as fast as possible... which I think is probably more common. It's easy to move fast when basics go out the window.

AGREED.
People who throw out quality in exchange for rapidity lose in the end. Diminishing returns doesn't even begin to describe it!
BUT: if a person can keep the other important qualities and capitalize on greater speed...all the better! Greater speed is only a detriment when you throw out the other important parts of the equation to get it.

But the basics, the foundation, MUST be strong. Without a firm and well established foundation....how can the structure built from it be any good??

Your Brother
John

 

[Brother John]

It's always good to remember that on any given day, regardless of the amount of material you've learned, you will be no better than your basics.

Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

WOW Bill!!!

You are on an absolute ROLL of good quotes. That one's going in my notebook.

Your Brother
John

 

[rmcrobertson]

I agree. For example, about the last time--and I mean the last time--I was on KenpoNet, I had a bit of a discussion with a guy who'd been discussing how he taught inward blocks.

He'd changed the block, and didn't know it. I asked why he didn't just teach the basic to beginners the way it's laid out in Parker's manuals and books; he told me we need to evolve. I told him that I'd rethought the way I was teaching Short 1, and put the hammering inward block back in more clearly; he told me that that violated the concept of point of origin, which was why he'd changed it. I explained why that wasn't the point; others chimed in and told me that they didn't teach blocks out of a horse stance, that was obsolete, they taught a neutral bow right away. I asked about the neutral bow they were doing; it turns out they were doing a modified side horse, really, and didn't know it. In between, of course, there was the usual phantasmagoria, mine and theirs.

I realize that I am by some standards a bit...stick-in-the-muddy. But I wonder at the endless excuses for not just working the basics properly, usually on the grounds that they're, "old-fashioned," or (unspoken, but what the problem is), "too boring."

The basics are only boring and old-fashioned when people don't know what their point is, either in terms of practice or in terms of their own internal development.

 

[Brother John]

I seldom do more than skim the subject lines of KenpoNet, tends to be way too political... that's one area of Kenpo that I get very sick of. I think that even though many of us come from very different 'camps' or schools of thought on Kenpo... we shouldn't let were we 'come from' or where the other guy does come between us or persuade our thinking/biases in one way or the other. I think I've been very guilty of this way of thinking, and I wish I hadn't. I hope to overcome it. BUT: the exact opposite tends to be the case, especially on KenpoNet. It tends to be a Kenpo-Politics and personal attack it would seem. Too bad really, I don't think that the forum host ever intended it for that.

Anyway...I didn't read the thread you are talking about. At least, I don't think I did, so I'm not really qualified to speak on the merits of the argument. I do teach/train the inward block from the practice horse-stance first and then move on to other blocks. Helps me keep it in a kind of perspective really. Different people see different things as the 'foundation' or fundamentals of their art. Truth be told though, whatever we end up doing the most of with the greatest frequency IS the foundation. So if doing the inward block like that fits their paradigm...so be it. Wether or not I agree or do it that way doesn't really enter into the parameters of this discussion I don't think. IF that's their "foundational way" of teaching and training that block...then that's it and that's what they should focus on.

My argument really is that a good deal of people don't focus enough on what comprises the very foundation of their art. I like the way that Bill put it, your application of your art is only as good as your basics. ((paraphrased obviously)) I think that if you look at a lot of sports or crafts, areas where there are people who've reached the HIGHEST levels of DOING something...I think you'll find that it's not the "advanced" things that really make them great, but that they can do the most basic of things in the clutch moments with a high level of consistancy. People like that make the fundamentals seem advanced.

Your Brother
John

 

[Bode]

...they taught a neutral bow right away. I asked about the neutral bow they were doing; it turns out they were doing a modified side horse, really, and didn't know it.

I was involved in that thread only to try to clarify the discussion. Then as the thread went on I discovered that we did not agree on the approach. One of these days I have to sit down and see if I can communicate, in words, what would take two minutes in person. I'll try to find the time to do it sometime soon and post it on this forum. (Honestly, MartialTalk seems a bit more civil than Kenponet)

I think we can all agree that the Forum's cause some miscommunication. I am sure some day we will be at the same seminar/event and be able to have a polite conversation about Kenpo and discover that we agree about more things than previously thought.

 

[rmcrobertson]

1. I agree, BroJo, about skimming KenpoNet--and it took you a lot less time to learn why than it took me.

2. I'm afraid that that old-time religion, is good enough for me--I feel, rather strongly, that kenpo types fiddling about with a teaching system they do not understand is one of our basic problems.

 

[Brother John]

1. I agree, BroJo, about skimming KenpoNet--and it took you a lot less time to learn why than it took me.

2. I'm afraid that that old-time religion, is good enough for me--I feel, rather strongly, that kenpo types fiddling about with a teaching system they do not understand is one of our basic problems.

1. Yeah, sooner or later seems like even people with the best of intentions gets 'stung' there. Oh well. Doesn't mean I NEVER post there, but seldom.

2. I think I understand your problem, at least in regards to the AKKI. BUT: I pose that you arrive at this conclusion with only partial information to go on and a strong bias against it to begin with. The person to have done the changing for us has been Mr. Mills. You assume that he's "fiddling" I believe he's got good reasons. You believe that he may not "understand" the teaching system...I say he does. Thing is, we are both biases we'll probably never convince one another. That's ok. I'd just like things to be a civil as possible I guess. As he was a 10 year private student of Mr. Parker, served on the the I.K.K.A. Systems Council (One of only three members, therefore 'understanding' the system) and was the IKKA National Testing Director...I think that these credentials go a LONG way toward saying that he had and does have an unusually Strong grasp of the American Kenpo system and how it works.
But hey, I didn't want to set out to sell you on the AKKI. I know it wouldn't do anygood anyway.
What I appreciate about you Robert is that you seem to have a conservative approach to your Kenpo training. I admire your passion for it too, in that we are more alike than different.
I'd like it if we could discuss Kenpo more without feeling like one or the other of us is trying to take pot-shots at one another's 'camp' or side of the line. Really...the 'line' is pretty darned artificial. It seems like your 'problem' with the AKKI tends to get brought up by you a lot. This makes me (and I think some others) feel like you are looking down your nose at us and judging us. I'd guess that's where much of the rankling comes from.

I need to go to bed. I'm rambling on again.

Your Brother
John

 

[rmcrobertson]

While I agree with 99 & 44/100% of your post, I might also point out that it is very seldom that I mention either a) Mr. Mills, or, b) the AKKI, either directly or indirectly.

 

[Sigung86]

I seem to recall a story/legend passed to me by someone many years ago about SGM Parker and basics. It could be a legend, but it sounds reasonable.

SGM Parker let it be known that at one particular class he was going to teach the secrets of Kenpo. A larger than average number of people showed up and he took them through several hours of intense basics.

If you don't have them, then all the flash in the world is going to only end you up on your butt.