Chushin - The Centre Line

[Hyoho]

I was practising some of Wado Ryu’s ‘Kihon Gumite’ on my own, in between sets in the gym this morning. I used a floor board as a convenient centre line (chushin in Japanese) off which I’d just move to avoid an imaginary attack and perform the appropriate defence. It suddenly struck me how silly this idea of moving off chushin was since the attacker would merely have to slightly change their angle of attack, in real time, to render the defender’s little twist or side step useless and land their kick or punch. It’s such a ubiquitous concept in the MAs and it looks impressive in pre-arranged sparring or a class demo, when the punch or kick just misses it’s target, but practically it just wouldn’t work because any assailant worth their salt, would just need to subtly redirect their attack. To make it work you’d have to make a big deviation from the midline (the width of several of my gym’s floorboards) which would be difficult to hide. It’s the same in swordsmanship, Wing Chun, Aikido.

Is the idea of the importance of chushin another flashy MA myth? Does this idea exist in boxing/MMA/BJJ?

A fundamental principle of Niten Ichiryu.

 

[Fungus]

It depends on the target (head vs body) but our instructors often emphasise that while it is nice to evade (move out of the way) from the attack, quite often this is not necessary because just changing the plane of angle of impact to your centerline from 90 degrees to a less direct angle reduces the power enough so that eating it is no problem. And this movement also requires less energy of the defender. A direct straight full power blow to your chest can come with alot of power, but if your torso is 45 on impact the power is reduced alot, and can be the difference between KO and just some pain.

I guess the logic is the same to as why (at least in our style) in most punches your torseo 90 degress to the line of your opponent, but in any block your torso is always 45 degrees, and the reason is that if the block fails and the opponents strieks trhough, the angle of impact takes the power down.

 

[Fungus]

- straight line attack, I'll counter with circular attack. My circular attack will knock my opponent's straight-line attack off his attacking path.

I tested this in fighing class on a straight punch to my upper torso, I evade a but, and change angle of impact, but while his attacks does reach me, it's weaker and I counter with a foreful hook under the attacking arms ribcage or armpit, that will hurt more than the angled direct strike.

So the angular change, means I "trade one weak straight punch" for a potential heavy hook on spleen or liver whatever side it is, or kidney area i I can move more to the side. This is make the attacker also scare of throwing straight punches fearing this counter hook when his elbows are not there for protection.

So when I show off the hook repeteadly often it sometimes creates more distance, so it's also a way to manipulate the distance in the fight - "don't come near and lift your elbows beucase then I will get you"

 

[drop bear]

By the way. With angles less can be more. And this is something I complain about a lot is people staying on that 12 o clock angle. (So directly in front. Basically)

But I can move as little as lining up my left shoulder to throw a jab he now cannot see coming because it is moving in a straight line.

If he re-enters shifting to my right shoulder directly in front and throwing a cross.

Ultimately all I really need to be is a fists distance off line so he can't instinctively track me.

So quite often what happens is people take these massive angles in demos. That you quite often don't have time to do.

And so people think they are not really possible.

 

[marvin8]

By the way. With angles less can be more. And this is something I complain about a lot is people staying on that 12 o clock angle. (So directly in front. Basically)

But I can move as little as lining up my left shoulder to throw a jab he now cannot see coming because it is moving in a straight line.

If he re-enters shifting to my right shoulder directly in front and throwing a cross.

Ultimately all I really need to be is a fists distance off line so he can't instinctively track me.

So quite often what happens is people take these massive angles in demos. That you quite often don't have time to do.

And so people think they are not really possible.

At 2:39, this coach talks about standing offset, not on the tracks.

 

[jks9199]

Using angles is a key element, and like Tony said, it's often demonstrated wrongly. Understood and used properly, subtle and small shifts can be very effective in creating windows of opportunity and safety -- but you have to understand that fighting is inherently dynamic, and those moments are short. In the real deal -- you'll use that moment to (hopefully) end the fight. In sparring, it's less apparent, because your opponent certainly can react.

There's also another important element to moving off the line -- it can mitigate the force of an attack. I know someone who drives this home with a longsword... If you stay right on the line, bad things are going to happen. By moving off the line, the blade will miss, even if your block or stop-hit isn't effective.

Timing is key in more than one way. You have to move at the right moment, or your opponent will simply react and dedirect their attack. You have to counter at the right moment, too, or they'll respond. You also have to be moving on the right rhythm for it to be truly effective. You can't use "1 and 2 and 3" timing; you have to be moving "1-2-3", getting your moves into the spaces between your opponents.

The hardest part of learning this effectively is that it will hurt... because you have to commit to working the skillset until you get it down and develop that rhythm and timing internally, and until you do, you're going to get hit.

 

[Holmejr]

The element of surprise. In class where we know each others moves, our angling off can become predictable. I know you will angle off, so I simply angle off with you. On the streets it’s much different. On the streets your techniques, including angling off comes as a surprise and can give you instant dominance, even if only a second or two, but time enough to run or follow through. For many women, angling off defensively or offensively for that matter is often preferable than going toe to toe with a bigger more powerful assailant. I’m a FMA guy and staying away from the blade is a primary concern. Combining powerful techniques while angling off is what we strive for. Someday I’ll get there!

 

[Holmejr]

Short answer. Lomenchemco.

Watch those feet! Great footwork. The guy is really amazing. Great composure.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The hardest part of learning this effectively is that it will hurt... because you have to commit to working the skillset until you get it down and develop that rhythm and timing internally, and until you do, you're going to get hit.

This has been my reality. I got hit a lot before I reached. "I don't get hit alot" It's also not a permanent skill set. It quickly becomes dull if not practiced often.

 

[marvin8]

Using angles is a key element, and like Tony said, it's often demonstrated wrongly. Understood and used properly, subtle and small shifts can be very effective in creating windows of opportunity and safety --

Yes. Take what that boxing coach is teaching for example. The principle (physics), objective, strategy and tactics have to be taught first by a knowledgeable teacher/style.

but you have to understand that fighting is inherently dynamic, and those moments are short. In the real deal -- you'll use that moment to (hopefully) end the fight. In sparring, it's less apparent, because your opponent certainly can react.

Yes. However, there are physics that create more time to for you to react—like angles.

There's also another important element to moving off the line -- it can mitigate the force of an attack. I know someone who drives this home with a longsword... If you stay right on the line, bad things are going to happen. By moving off the line, the blade will miss, even if your block or stop-hit isn't effective.

Yes. And, if you simultaneously move off line and attack, you have used two actions against the opponent's one action (the action/reaction principle) before the opponent can react.

Timing is key in more than one way. You have to move at the right moment, or your opponent will simply react and redirect their attack. You have to counter at the right moment, too, or they'll respond.

Yes. If your opponent is in a neutral fighting stance, they can just follow you as you step. However, if they are out of position at the time you step, then they can't follow you.

You also have to be moving on the right rhythm for it to be truly effective. You can't use "1 and 2 and 3" timing; you have to be moving "1-2-3", getting your moves into the spaces between your opponents.

You can use half beat (e.g., feint, shuffle step) and full beat rhythm.

The hardest part of learning this effectively is that it will hurt... because you have to commit to working the skillset until you get it down and develop that rhythm and timing internally, and until you do, you're going to get hit.

You can learn and drill (e.g., partner, pad work, etc.) rhythm and timing skills at knowledgeable combat sports gyms that don't require sparring/fighting.

 

[wab25]

Sparring will cleanse all. If you aren't using the technique in sparring then you aren't using it.

Stepping off the centerline cannot be fully understood until it practiced in free sparring.

I agree with this.... which is why I was suggesting that these drills work their way towards sparring and actually become sparring.

While stepping off the centerline cannot be fully understood until done in free sparring.... some of us would not ever learn it or experience it, without drills teaching us how to do it and what exactly it is. These have to be done before sparring.

The problem with the drill is when we think that the drill is the end all... that an efficient and pretty execution of the drill means that we have it. The only reason for the drill is to teach and ingrain tactics and behaviors to beginners like me. When these ideas start to show up in free sparring and fighting is when we know that we are getting it.

The thing I am pointing out is that if you only ever do the drill, by the numbers... you will never get from drill to the ability to use in sparring. You have to start with the drill, and change, add to it, move it closer and closer to sparring. Pick the parts that are hard for you, and modify the drill to first expose that deficiency and then to allow you to work on improvements in that area. There are lots of changes that can be made to these drills that can help work on different things... I mentioned a few, but there are lots more. But the point of all these drills and modifications is to train you in a skill that you can pull off in sparring.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

stepping off the centerline

Instead of stepping off the centerline, if you can separate your opponent's arms away from his head and enter his front door (between his both arms), you will occupy his center line, and you will have a lot of advantage.

 

[marvin8]

"Unlike Xing Yi, Xing Yi walks thru the center… However in Bagua, we walk around you like walking sideways..."

Karate/MMA version, Thompson lures Masvidal to jab. As Masvidal jabs, Thompson side steps and issues right cross:

https://imgur.com/SaAUg17

 

[Haruhiko]

I was practising some of Wado Ryu’s ‘Kihon Gumite’ on my own, in between sets in the gym this morning. I used a floor board as a convenient centre line (chushin in Japanese) off which I’d just move to avoid an imaginary attack and perform the appropriate defence. It suddenly struck me how silly this idea of moving off chushin was since the attacker would merely have to slightly change their angle of attack, in real time, to render the defender’s little twist or side step useless and land their kick or punch. It’s such a ubiquitous concept in the MAs and it looks impressive in pre-arranged sparring or a class demo, when the punch or kick just misses it’s target, but practically it just wouldn’t work because any assailant worth their salt, would just need to subtly redirect their attack. To make it work you’d have to make a big deviation from the midline (the width of several of my gym’s floorboards) which would be difficult to hide. It’s the same in swordsmanship, Wing Chun, Aikido.

Is the idea of the importance of chushin another flashy MA myth? Does this idea exist in boxing/MMA/BJJ?

I read a study recently on the efficacy of kata, and by extension, the centre line in practising whatever martial art you're practising.

I'm not aware of any myth about chushin let alone second-guessing a kata's philosophical grounding, depending on the school.

While we're on the topic - what's the difference between chushin and hanshin? I'm assuming chushin is footing mostly, and hanshin is tangential to your body, specifically in kenjutsu and iaijutsu?

 

[Haruhiko]

A fundamental principle of Niten Ichiryu.

In this context, do we in Niten (a pleasure and privilege to speak with you - I'm a student of Chris') consider chushin the "line of string" between the navel and tsuka?

 

[isshinryuronin]

Is the idea of the importance of chushin another flashy MA myth?

I read a study recently on the efficacy of kata, and by extension, the centre line in practising whatever martial art you're practising.

To be honest, "chushin" is a term I was unfamiliar with, so I did a little research and found I was familiar with the concepts. I use the plural as it seems there are really two chushins: Chushin ryoku and chushin sen.

Chushin ryoku refers to one's own centerline and is concerned with body structure being in alignment that allows efficient biomechanics for power generation (and balance). Kata practice can certainly be a big help to train this, no doubt. But any kind of MA practice should always keep this in mind - it's that important IMO.

Chushin sen is different in that rather being concerned with oneself, it is concerned with the centerline of the opponent in relation to your position. Now were talking tactics and movement. (I touched on this in the second half of post #8). One can evade and attack offline, or attack straight into it. (Maybe a good topic for a new thread.) Working with a partner/sparring I think will best develop skills in this regard, though evading and attacking offline is illustrated in a number of kata.

I think chushin (both of them), far from being a "flashy MA myth," are basic foundations of TMA.

It appears these terms are most often used in aikido and iaijutsu, but the concepts are definitely used in karate and it's in this respect I am viewing and interpreting them. While the concepts I've mentioned are real, I'm not sure if I'm a little off base per the exact technical definition used by those other arts. Maybe I got it right. If not, at least I learned some new words.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Insides of talking about "center line", I prefer to talk about "front door and side doors".

Yu can enter through your opponent's front door, or enter through his side doors. There are PROs and CONs.

When you enter your opponent's

- front door, you own him totally.
- side door, you may consider he is better than you.

When you step in between your opponent's legs, you have owned him completely.

 

[Gyakuto]

I read a study recently on the efficacy of kata, and by extension, the centre line in practising whatever martial art you're practising.

And…

While we're on the topic - what's the difference between chushin and hanshin? I'm assuming chushin is footing mostly, and hanshin is tangential to your body, specifically in kenjutsu and iaijutsu?

Kayan shin means ‘lower body’…hips legs feet that are used to generate power. Johanshin means upper body.

 

[Gyakuto]

Sorry that should read kahanshin

 

[Hyoho]

In this context, do we in Niten (a pleasure and privilege to speak with you - I'm a student of Chris') consider chushin the "line of string" between the navel and tsuka?

I don't hold any blade or bokuto or shinai level with the navel. Chris who?