Christianity VERSUS Buddhism!!

[Corporal Hicks]

i agree with you on most points. yours is a human liberty issue. i understand that. it's an endless debate. like i said before, i hope you find the happiness you desire, be it in the United States of America, or elsewhere. the way i see it, gay and lesbians are gaining more ground in this country everyday and will continue to do so, while christians are actually losing, IMO. the USA isn't so bad, is it?

i'd like to hear more buddhist input in this thread. shall we?

Yes so would I! My own viewpoints on Buddhism that I may state may be incorrect since I have only being studing and praticing the philosphy of Buddhism for about a month, but I'm trying so correct me if I'm wrong.
As for Buddhism, there are extremists too, their motives, that I dont know, since a matter of opinion, and the feeding of the ego or the pressure of another culture attacking a Buddhist viewpoint should not trouble (in theory) a Buddhist.
Unlike Christianity I see that Buddhism trys to tackle the problem behind suffering, you know maybe I'm wrong but Buddhism tells you to look for the source and eradicate it whereas in Christianity you are only activity changing your actions, that doesnt stop the feelings in the first place, I see Christians as waiting for salvation and Buddists seeking it, and for those who do, finding it. In essence I see Christianity trying to (and they do) deal with the symptoms i.e. anger, resentment, hatred, sin etc but the difference being that Buddhism actually goes deeper, into the source of this hatred and teaches you how to eradicate not only the symptoms but the source from it arose.
Whereas a Christian may turn around and take offence to somebody throwing their opinion against them and their religion and try to not response (and maybe the dont respond), I see that a Buddhist would not even 'care' if thats the right word, because the opinion thrown at them had nothing to 'hit' no 'ego' or if there is an 'ego' it is under complete control.
Maybe I'm wrong, I see Christians struggling with their minds yet Buddhist taking control and rising above their minds, and I know that I'm obviously being biased here, putting all Christians and all Buddhists into a same catergory, but thats what I see from the teaching, thats why I've chosen Buddhism instead of Christianity even though I was brought up a Christian!

On the topic of human liberty I believe it was the Buddha who revolutionised a particular Indian society where it was divided in four classes, the Brahman, Kshatriya, Vaisya and Sudra classes, and he though that the eternal Buddha would not want this so he equalised the classes, giving everybody the chance to be enlightened. Maybe you can use this idea of equality to apply to certain topics. I dont personally see why Buddhist should have a problem with certain issues, i.e. gay and lesbian rights, or maybe I'm wrong?

Regards

P.s. thanks for keeping the topic debatable!

 

[ave_turuta]

perhaps you're not looking in the right places then. what you see and what you hear are two entirely different things. the acts of a few cannot possibly be a direct representation of a group as a whole. you hold the entire christian faith accountable for the acts of some, as you quoted above, or you're simply stating that christians condone this activity simply because you don't "hear" them criticize these actions.

I think my previous posts make my position very clear:

Theists (particularly believers of monotheistic religions) affirm that faith is a substantial part of their lives and a significant component of their ethical worldview. Simultaneously, Christianity and Islam, for instance, claim that salvation in the afterlife can only come (as per their interpretation of the revelaed texts that give sustenance to their beliefs) through adherence to a particular dogma. At the same time, these same texts, while containing positive messages, also contain prescriptions that legitimize all the atrocities abovementioned. Thus, I am not saying all Christians condone atrocities: I am merely pointing out the contradiction implicit in adhering to a belief system that is blatantly contradictory and that prescribes both goodness while at the same time justifies (doctrinally and dogmatically speaking) the subrodination of others.

Peace to you too,
A.T.

 

[Tgace]

Please provide evidence that either the Corporal or myself have in any way or instance taken this thread as "a quest to belittle, ...., debase and ridicule people who do espouse a faith." To debate, yes: to ridicule, absolutely not. Your accusation is unfair and dishonest.

Peace,
A.T.

Well, as I didnt accuse YOU of any "wrongdoing" I dont know why you are getting so defensive. Did I attack your "religon"? Making sweeping statements about Christians is OK (like "they dont seem to want to stand up against the Oklahoma bombings") but saying Atheists are obsessive about attacking religion at every opportunity is not?

 

[Cryozombie]

I will not quibble over the meaning of words (I was trained as a linguist, so this is all too familiar to me), but basically, no: trust and faith are different matters. .

Yet... you use a dictonary definition to prove your point that says they are the same thing:

The dictionary defines faith as... (2) : complete trust.

Its ok, tho, as the educated person you have been so quick to point out you are in your numerous posts in this thread, I will have FAITH (i.e. Complete trust) that you understand the difference between EDUCATION and INTELIGENCE and therefore I will not point them out to you.

 

[ave_turuta]

Yet... you use a dictonary definition to prove your point that says they are the same thing:


Its ok, tho, as the educated person you have been so quick to point out you are in your numerous posts in this thread, I will have FAITH (i.e. Complete trust) that you understand the difference between EDUCATION and INTELIGENCE and therefore I will not point them out to you.

And I have complete trust in that you will not take things out of context (please re-read my post and explanation of the difference between both words, responding to an example which was ) and keep this dialogue as civilized as it has been until now. No, "faith" and "trust" are different matters, semantically and otherwise (or do we need to play sylogism games such as "God is good" / "All tall men are good" = "All tall men are God"????? to prove that no, they are not the same thing??)

Now, I have complete trust you will not engage me any further unless you have something else to say directly related to the topic at hand, in a more respectful and less sarcastic tone, since you do not know me and I have been rather respectful up to this point in this particular discussion. Since you seem to imply that I am somehow not an intelligent human being, I wonder why you would humble yourself to my level of stupidity and engage me in this otherwise very interesting conversation.

Thank you.

 

[ave_turuta]

Well, as I didnt accuse YOU of any "wrongdoing" I dont know why you are getting so defensive. Did I attack your "religon"? Making sweeping statements about Christians is OK (like "they dont seem to want to stand up against the Oklahoma bombings") but saying Atheists are obsessive about attacking religion at every opportunity is not?

As in my previous answer, again: since you (a) do not seem interested in debating in a serious and respectful manner; and (b) are intentionally and repeatedly misconstruing and misrepresenting my arguments, I will cease to engage you in this debate. The first act of defensiveness came precisely from you, who accused Corporal Hicks of specifically targeting Christianity and "forgetting" about Islam, when in fact it was clear from his original post that he was referring to Christianity because it is the majority belief in the environment he is talking about, period, but in fact his comments applied to any theistic position, whether Christian, Jewish, or Muslim. I have ****not**** (I repeat this because it seems somwhat hard to get across) "ridiculed" Christians, not have I made "sweeping statements" about them, but rather comments based on my experience living as a foreigner in this country for 8 long years. Again, I challenge you to show me which instances justify your accusations. Once again: the debate had been civil until now; given your hostility to maintaining a civic and intellecually engaging debate (regardless of where you stand), I would much rather withdraw before writing something I might later regret.

Thank you.

 

[Cryozombie]

Now, I have complete trust you will not engage me any further unless you have something else to say directly related to the topic at hand, in a more respectful and less sarcastic tone, since you do not know me and I have been rather respectful up to this point in this particular discussion. Since you seem to imply that I am somehow not an intelligent human being, I wonder why you would humble yourself to my level of stupidity and engage me in this otherwise very interesting conversation.

Thank you.

Fair enough, however I feel compelled to point out since my response was a quote from your own post I believe it did relate, and RESPECT, which you are so quick to underline, is not given it is earned... and it is somthing you will not earn quickly from me if you continue to emphasise how much education you have had as your reasoning that you know better than others.

 

[Shizen Shigoku]

Well it seems Ave is educated enough to know the difference between "trust" and "complete trust," and knows which one is more similar to the concept of "faith." - The dictionary definition did not state "faith = trust" . . .

Anyway, arguing semantics is only a red herring to draw away from the original discussion.

Back on topic.

All I can say about the differences between Buddhism and Christianity (or other theistic belief systems), is that Buddhism more closely resembles science. The Kalama Sutta, for example, is much like the scientific method. Religious faith, it seems, depends on deliberately disregarding evidence (data) as collected by our senses, and instead proscribes a worldview / belief system / set of behaviors that contradicts the way things really are (as best as we can understand them through repeated exposure to sensory information).

It is this refusal to accept reality that characterizes faiths such as Christianity, in contrast to the philosophy of seeking the truth that characterizes Buddhism.

That, combined with the religious tenet of proselytization, makes religious believers abhorrent to those who see knowledge of truth and reality as good things.

 

[Cryozombie]

Oh... Ouch... you really... got me there, big guy.

:shrug:

Off that subject for a moment,

It amazes me how quick people are to catagorize that all Christains are closed minded, out to steal your rights, and rape your sons, with no regard to the "proof" science laid out before them proving that they are wrong...

It's like saying All Musims are terrorists, all buddists Immolate themselves when they are upset etc...

The actions of the "radical" or "fundamentalist" factions are not neccessary the actions of the group as a whole... but of course in order to cite how "evil" they are, naturaly they have to use those beliefs... often the same people who will stand up and scream if someone does that to another group...

 

[Tgace]

Hmmm..Corpral Hicks and myself are on pretty good terms with each other on most topics. As my posts were accepted and responded to by him in the manner in which I intended I believe its you Ave who are tainting what you read with your personal opinions. When people turn an attack on an opinion or topic into an attack on themselves I believe its a sign of....well something. If you can step back and see the context in which the post that offends you so much was framed you will see that Sapper6 stated that "Atheism is the Atheists religion". Corpral hicks asked how that was so and I posted my opinion on that. If you dont like it, fine.

I respect everybodys beliefs, but IMO many Atheists are as zealous about eliminating religion in public life as the other side is about spreading it. Heres an Atheist and I happen to agree with what he is saying here about that topic 100%.

http://www.suspensionofdisbelief.blog-city.com/this_started_reasonable.htm

 

[Tgace]

http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Buddhism_and_Christianity/id/9322

Buddhism and Christianity: Jesus and Buddha as Brothers
By Thich Nhat Hanh

The dialogue between Buddhism and Christianity has not gone very far, in my opinion, because we have not been able to set up a solid ground for such dialogue. This is a reflection of the present situation.

Buddhists believe in reincarnation, the possibility for human beings to live several lives. In Buddhist circles, we do not use the work incarnation very much: we use the word rebirth. After you die, you can be reborn and can have another life.

In Christianity, your life is unique, your only chance for salvation. If you spoil it, then you will never get salvation. You have only one life.

Buddhism teaches that there is non-self, anatta. Christianity clearly teaches that a Christian is a personalist. Not only are you a person, self, but God is a person, and He has a self.

The Buddhist teaching of emptiness and no substance sounds like the teaching of no being.

Christianity speaks of being, of existence. The teaching of St. Thomas Aquinas speaks of the philosophy of being, la philisophie de l'etre, the confirmation that the world is.

There is compassion and loving-kindness in Buddhism, which many Christians believe to be different from the charity and love in Christianity. Charity has two aspects: your love directed to God, and your love directed to humankind. You have to learn how to love your enemy. Our Christian friends have a tendency to remind us that the motivation of love is different for Christians and Buddhists. There are theologians who say that Buddhists practice compassion just because they want liberation; that Buddhists don't really care about the suffering of people and other living beings; that they are only motivated by the desire to be liberated. In Christianity, your love is grounded in God. You love God, and because God said that you must love your neighbor, so you love your neighbor. Your love of your neighbor springs from the ground of your love of God.

Many people, especially in Christian circles, say that there are things in common between Christianity and Buddhism. But many find that the philosophical foundations of Christianity and Buddhism are quite different. Buddhism teaches rebirth, many lives. Christianity teaches that only this one life is available to you. Buddhism teaches that there is no self, but in Christianity there is a real self. Buddhism teaches emptiness, no substance, while Christianity confirms the fact of existence. If the philosophical ground is so different, the practice of compassion and loving kindness in Buddhism and of charity and love in Christianity is different. All that seems to be a very superficial way of seeing. If we have time and if we practice our own tradition well enough and deeply enough, we will see that these issues are not real.

First of all, there are many forms of Buddhism, many ways of understanding Buddhism. If you have one hundred people practicing Buddhism, you may have one hundred forms of Buddhism. The same is true in Christianity. If there are one hundred thousand people practicing Christianity, there may be one hundred thousand ways of understanding Christianity.

In Plum Village, where many people from different religious backgrounds come to practice, it is not difficult to see that sometimes a Buddhist recognizes a Christian as being more Buddhist than another Buddhist. I see a Buddhist, but the way he understands Buddhism is quite different from the way I do. However, when I look at a Christian, I see that the way he understands Christianity and practices love and charity is closer to the way I practice them than this man who is called a Buddhist.

The same thing is true in Christianity. From time to time, you feel that you are very far away from your Christian brother. You feel that the brother who practices in the Buddhist tradition is much closer to you as a Christian. So Buddhism is not Buddhism and Christianity is not Christianity. There are many forms of Buddhism and many ways of understanding Buddhism. There are many ways of understanding Christianity. Therefore, let us forget the idea that Christianity must be like this, and that Buddhism can only be like that.

We don't want to say that Buddhism is a kind of Christianity and Christianity is a kind of Buddhism. A mango can not be an orange. I cannot accept the fact that a mango is an orange. They are two different things. Vive la difference. But when you look deeply into the mango and into the orange, you see that although they are different they are both fruits. If you analyze the mango and the orange deeply enough, you will see small elements are in both, like the sunshine, the clouds, the sugar, and the acid. If you spend time looking deeply enough, you will discover that the only difference between them lies in the degree, in the emphasis. At first you see the difference between the orange and the mango. But if you look a little deeper, you discover many things in common. In the orange you find acid and sugar which is in the mango too. Even two oranges taste different; one can be very sour and one can be very sweet.

 

[Tgace]

http://watthai.net/talon/wheel/wheel16_1.htm

Very good comparison essay.

Though Buddhism and Christianity differ from each other in their respective views about world and self, about the meaning of life and man's ultimate destiny, yet they agree again in the ultimate postulates of all religious life. For both religions proclaim man's responsibility for his actions and the freedom of moral choice; both teach retribution for all deeds, and believe in the perfectibility of the individual. "You must be perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect" (//Matth.// 5, 48), says Jesus. And the Buddha summarizes the essence of his ethics in the words: "To shun all evil, to practice what is good, to cleanse one's own heart: that is the teaching of the Enlightened Ones."

 

[ave_turuta]

Fair enough, however I feel compelled to point out since my response was a quote from your own post I believe it did relate, and RESPECT, which you are so quick to underline, is not given it is earned... and it is somthing you will not earn quickly from me if you continue to emphasise how much education you have had as your reasoning that you know better than others.

Once again: please re-read my original post. I talked of myself as an educated person in a particular context in order to make a specific point: that, very sadly, and even though I came to this country 8 years ago in search of opportunities (especifically, I came here to obtain my Ph.D. in an American university), I find myself having to leave because of the enormous pressures brought about by a social and political environment that is becoming more and more stifling and repressive to me as a lesbian woman. I, as an educator, have given a lot to this country (I think): so far, I have taught over 400 students in 6 different courses, for what??? I now feel like this country is kicking me in my butt and sending me home with no apologies. Not to speak of my partner, who is an American.

I happen to not be the kind of person so imply in your post (i.e. someone who simply disregards other people's opinions because they lack formal education, for instance). I am 28 years old; I come from a poor family: both my mom and dad are salaried laborers in northern Spain (my mom worked as a cleaning lady until a year go, my dad continues with his job). None of them went beyond elementary school education, and I happen to be the first person in my extended family to have the opportunity to go to college, for which I am beyond grateful. I have met a lot of snobs in my life: people who brag about their position (whether it is professors, lawyers, doctors) and disregarded me as just the daughter of a poor cleaning maid, so I think I know something about respect and what it means. My parents, though formally uneducated by American standards, are the two persons who have taught me the essential lessons in life: their lack of formal higher education means nothing to me. They taught me to value family ties, education, and above all, to respect others regardless of their achievements or position in life. So no: I do not think respect is "earned." I have not disrespected ***anyone*** in any of my posts; I understand the internet is not the best of means to fully communicate our expressions, but I fear you have unjustly misrepresented both my words and my intentions. I referred to myself as an educated person in a very limited context in order to illustrate a particular example: the rest, you've imagined yourself.

I've had a very tough life, and yes: it is very sad that after coming here on a scholarship and having almost finished a Ph.D., I can no longer stay in this country because if my partner falls ill again (as she has in the past) her family has the right to interfere in our affairs and even bar me from being by her side in her hospital bed. Why???? Because it seems that our love for each other, partnership, and mutual respect, is a huge threat to Western civilization as we know it, and laws need to be passed to "protect" society from us. Laws that, allow me to remind you, are enacted by self-professed Christians who consciously build their political discourse on what the Bible, not the Constitution, says. So yes: allow me to be angry if, after 8 years of ***very*** hard work, I see myself selling all my things (my bed, my TV set, my bookshelves) and packing all my life in two suitcases back to Spain because these self-appointed guardians of morality (who, once again, are very openly proud of being Christian) have decided that neither I nor my partner (law-abiding, tax-paying individuals) have no right to live our lives in peace and tranquility, with the protection that we deserve.

And darn it! Yes I am angry!!! The day theists admit that their worldview and their insistence on imposing on others their values is indeed causing a lot of pain to a lot of folks, will be the day when I will think differently about them. I am a staunch secularist, yes; and, while I do respect people worshipping in private and public spaces as they wish, I certainly oppose their proselitizing and imposing what I and many others consider to be irrational, antiquated, and damaging ideas to people who happen not to share those beliefs.

So, while I am glad to continue our discussion, (a) do not misrepresent my words; and (b) try to show respect even if you find it difficult.

A.T.

 

[Tgace]

While I truly emphasize with your situation. How is your sexuality related to you having to leave the country? As far as I know sexuality has nothing to do with immigration law.

 

[Flatlander]

And darn it! Yes I am angry!!! The day theists admit that their worldview and their insistence on imposing on others their values is indeed causing a lot of pain to a lot of folks, will be the day when I will think differently about them. I am a staunch secularist, yes; and, while I do respect people worshipping in private and public spaces as they wish, I certainly oppose their proselitizing and imposing what I and many others consider to be irrational, antiquated, and damaging ideas to people who happen not to share those beliefs.

So, while I am glad to continue our discussion, (a) do not misrepresent my words; and (b) try to show respect even if you find it difficult.

A.T.

Apparently, you are suffering, which is unfortunate.

I believe that the majority of your dialogue in this thread isn't really topical. In reading your posts, it seems as though you are not interested in discussing the similarities or differences between Buddhism and Christianity, rather, your intent seems to be to attack the Christian viewpoint. Presumably, this is due to the treatment that you have received by people you perceive to have been motivated by their religeous beliefs. This, however, is not the topic that I believe Corporal Hicks had intended to explore here. :asian:

I encourage you to peruse these threads, which you may find to be an interesting read:

Ten Commandments...."Rules" or "Continuum?" for living.

Should the 10 commandments be allowed in gov't buildings?

mar·riage

Proof of a Higher Power

Christian Reconstructionism

The Historical Jesus.

 

[ave_turuta]

Apparently, you are suffering, which is unfortunate.

I believe that the majority of your dialogue in this thread isn't really topical. In reading your posts, it seems as though you are not interested in discussing the similarities or differences between Buddhism and Christianity, rather, your intent seems to be to attack the Christian viewpoint.

With all due respect, if you follow the thread you will see that (a) I did address the question Corporal Hicks was raising; and (b) then argued other points related to the responses that were offered to his initial question, particularly in regards to the Rev.'s posting. I was especifically responding to the claims contained in the Reverend's message and asked for clarification on the points he made. After which, others joined in the debate. As for my "attacking" the Christian viewpoint, I will not respond since I have done it on numerous occasions before.

Buddhism and Christianity have more substantial differences than they have similarities, the former being closer to a philosophical system of thought, the latter a monotheistic belief system that revolves around the idea of salvation through belief in a particular deity, a key element that is absent in Buddhism. Secondly: Buddhism does not rely on the notion of "revelation," which is the key component of how Christian beliefs took shape and were compiled. So, even if they share common ground on common sensical things (do not harm your neighbor, do not kill, do not steal, etc. etc.) they are very different things.

A.T.

 

[ave_turuta]

While I truly emphasize with your situation. How is your sexuality related to you having to leave the country? As far as I know sexuality has nothing to do with immigration law.

Off-topic: Unfortunately US law only grants full immigration rights to married spouses. Since the federal government does not recognize our union and my visa is of a limited nature, I cannot apply for permanent residency. Of course it is related to immigration laws. In addition: I am not just leaving because of that (my visa is not expiring yet), but because of the difficulty of living a ***normal*** life when laws do not protect you.

A.T.

 

[Tgace]

Ahh Ok.

 

[Tgace]

I still like this section though.

In Plum Village, where many people from different religious backgrounds come to practice, it is not difficult to see that sometimes a Buddhist recognizes a Christian as being more Buddhist than another Buddhist. I see a Buddhist, but the way he understands Buddhism is quite different from the way I do. However, when I look at a Christian, I see that the way he understands Christianity and practices love and charity is closer to the way I practice them than this man who is called a Buddhist.

The same thing is true in Christianity. From time to time, you feel that you are very far away from your Christian brother. You feel that the brother who practices in the Buddhist tradition is much closer to you as a Christian. So Buddhism is not Buddhism and Christianity is not Christianity. There are many forms of Buddhism and many ways of understanding Buddhism. There are many ways of understanding Christianity. Therefore, let us forget the idea that Christianity must be like this, and that Buddhism can only be like that.

 

[Pale Rider]

I have read through all (or the majority) of the posts made in comparison between religions. The only thing that I have to ask is that which would be the wiser of the two decisions 1) To believe that there isn't a Heaven or Hell all of your life and when you die finding out that there is or 2) to believe that there is a Heaven and Hell and finding out that there isn't?

Since all religions are man-made regardless of how a person believes we have look at the driving force of Christianity and that isn't religion, but salvation. Those that believe in Christianity realizes that life here on this planet is but a short time, and they prepare themselves for the life to come. It isn't "narrow-minded" for Christians to not look at other religions - for it is against their religion to do so. They understand and interpret the Bible clearly when it states Thou shalt have no other gods before me, and other scriptures such as try these spirits to see if they are of me....

Christians realize that belief is the strongest part of their religion, so if other religions are brought into the equation then where is their Christian beliefs? They may not be able to provide any answers into explaining why they believe the way they do, but realizing that with the "whole armour of God" they will be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

Again this is all about personal beliefs. Things I don't mention about in Martial Arts forums as it has been determined to be a very touchy subject.

All in my opinion.