Christian Kenpo Schools

[Touch Of Death]

What is a "Christ centered" kenpo school? I have never heard of such a thing. I thought kenpo was a "killing art".

You thought wrong.
Sean

 

[bushidomartialarts]

You thought wrong.
Sean

not so very far wrong.

kenpo techniques are pretty gruesome stuff. and lots of the kenpo old-timers were pretty gruesome folks.

on the spectrum of 'buy them candy and flowers arts' on one side and 'killing arts' on the other, kenpo is pretty far towards the killing end.

 

[Touch Of Death]

not so very far wrong.

kenpo techniques are pretty gruesome stuff. and lots of the kenpo old-timers were pretty gruesome folks.

on the spectrum of 'buy them candy and flowers arts' on one side and 'killing arts' on the other, kenpo is pretty far towards the killing end.

While I agree Kenpo is not all rainbows and butterflies, you have to understand that to study kenpo is to better yourself. You improve your base, you improve your breathing, you improve your fitness, you improve your attitude, and you improve your logic. With these new found skills, you may Kill, protect, or improve others. Just because you can run people over with your car, doesn't make you the proud owner of a killer car. Its just a car. You own a car to improve your life.
Sean

 

[Carol]

This is a subject I can relate to very well. I never trained in a Christ-centered Kenpo school, but I currently train in an art that is generally associated with Islam.

Personally I have no issue with a school being Christ-centered (or any other faith for that matter). For a serious student, martial arts are part of life, so is one's faith. If the two coincide, they coincide.

Where I would take issue is in HOW the school will be run.

I do have an issue with the idea that only a particular faith should study Kenpo (or any other art).

I also disagree with the notion that (in the vein of the example) only Christians should study Kenpo, or that the true benefits of Kenpo can only be realized by Christians.

I would take particular issue if the school denigrated another martial artist for their faith, or perceived lack of it.

As said by others, I would take issue with the school being used as a schill for proseletyzation and conversions.

The aversion to killing also makes me very nervious. I have heard from some folks, many who self-identify as Christians, state vehemntly that they will not kill.

I find the concept to be irresponsible and dishonest.

If you fight someone, you must accept the responsibility that you may kill them. One's faith does not preclude one from that responsibility.

They may not drop dead at your feet, they may die hours, days, or even weeks later. But a prolonged death sourced injuries you caused is still a death that lies upon your hands, morally and legally.

If there is anyone that doesn't believe that people can die from allegedly non-lethal force then please visit these links:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q="Victoria+Snelgrove"

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=death+from+non-lethal+force

I am not suggesting that Christians shouldn't train, or shouldn't kill.

I simply have a HUGE problem with the emotions of Christians being intentionally baited with by using innacurate phrases like such as "not killing" and "non-lethal". In Kenpo we hit people and hurt people. If you cannot accept what results from that, train elsewhere.

 

[Touch Of Death]

While shooting people may kill them, the reason for shooting them is to stop or disable them; so, even gun use is not about killing.
Sean

 

[ArmorOfGod]

I happen to have a book written by a Japanese man, head of a Japanese style, that says Moses, Christ and Abraham visited Japan for instruction (as I recall, it says Moses learned how to use the staff and Jesus learned philosophy in Japan).

Jesus could have studied in Japan, as the cave where his body was placed for three days is in Japan now.

AoG

 

[morph4me]

Interesting thread. Personally I prefer to keep my training and my spirituality separate, but that's my choice. If someone wants to practice martial arts and religion together in a responsible manner, to each his own. That being said, I'm curious about how you would reconcile the turn the other cheek philosophy with the potentially lethal techniques taught in the dojo?

 

[exile]

While shooting people may kill them, the reason for shooting them is to stop or disable them; so, even gun use is not about killing.
Sean

This kind of argument leads you to the following reductio: while pinpoint tactical bombing may kill people, the reason for tactically bombing them is to destroy the facilities they use to produce war materiel (or whatever), so even tactical bombing is not about killing.

At this point, it looks as though the position you're taking is that X is only `about' killing if the deliberate intent of the action is specifically to kill, and if X merely is very likely to kill as a side effect of its main objective, then X is not `about' killing. Fine. Then let's rephrase the point: someone who applies kenpo, or any other martial art, implicitly does so on the understanding that while their goal may not be to kill someone (but merely to immobilize them to prevent them from whatever dangerous activity they are trying to carry out), there is an excellent chance of permanent severe damage or death to that person from the maximally effective use of that MA. And it's true that a lot of people who'd rather not kill anyone nevertheless believe that if someone threatens you physically, you may well (depending on the circumstances) be justified in bringing any level of force to bear on them that protects you or whoever else they may be threatening, even if the result of that force is to severely maim or kill the assailant.

Unpleasant as it may be, it's a fact that the more effective your application of any MA is, the more efficient you are in inflicting a potentially lethal level of damage on an assailant. That's just a nasty truth about the MAs, and as long as your ideology, or religion, or creed, or whatever, is compatible with that truth, there's no problem. But let's not try to pretend that a competent and effective application of MA techniques doesn't have a good chance of damaging someone permanently and possibly fatally, depending on how hard a surface their head bounces against after you've brought their upper body down low with an armlock and then punched, kicked , or elbow-rammed them in the face.

 

[Ray]

While shooting people may kill them, the reason for shooting them is to stop or disable them; so, even gun use is not about killing.

Cops that I've ever talked to have told me that if they ever have to fire a single round at some one, then they will empty the clip into the person they are firing at. In a nice pattern, in the chest.

I hope that stops or disables the perp.

 

[Kenpsy7]

The kenpo school that I teach at is not a covert christian school. I clearly tell each perspective student that I am an unashamed blood washed christian and that the school is Christ centered. Furthermore, I tell each perspective student that we will begin each class with prayer in the name of Jesus Christ and then I preach a message straight out of the Holy Bible. Not one student or perspective student has ever been told anything else. I tell everyone up front that the school is a christian ministry with the goal of reaching the lost for Christ so that they can have forgiveness of their sins through faith in Christ's death (for their sins), burial, and ressurrection three days later, and that when a person believes this and sincerly calls out in repentance for The Lord Jesus Christ to forgive them and to save them, then he will eternally forgive and save them as God promises in the bible.
Another goal is to encourage and teach fellow christians through the preaching of Gods word, fellowship with likeminded christians in an environment cunducive to their spiritual growth.
Now to the Kenpo... I am a legitimate 2nd generation American Kenpo Black Belt in the Ed Parker kenpo Line. I teach the entire system of American Kenpo as Ed Parker taught it to my teacher, and he subsequently taught it to me for nearly 20 years now. I teach the 154 technique system of Kenpo (with other kenpo techniques not in the 154 taught as additional material). All Forms short1 through long 8, finger sets, blocking sets, kicking sets,stance sets, co-ordination sets, staff sets, two-man set ect..( as well as rebounding sets and tiger and dragon forms)..these last forms and sets are my teachers. We then end in Prayer.

 

[Andrew Green]

So here would be my worry, what qualifies you to work as a ministry? Are you recognized and ordained by any major branch of Christianity? I know nothing of you, or what you do so I won't suggest this applies to you, but, do you suppose that someone using a similar sales pitch could use Christianity through martial arts to teach there own "version" of it, and walk that slippery slop that could lead to near cult like behaviour?

As a martial arts school falls outside the normal boundaries of a religious institution, and the instructor is running what amounts to a personality driven business, using it as a ministry, with no training in acting as a minister and without the bounds of a church, this seems a dangerous thing.

If I wanted to open a Roman Catholic church to spread the word and reach the lost, I imagine there would be some pretty tight requirements, a system of checks and balances, I would answer in some sense to others from the branch, have to recieve formal training, etc. With a "Christian martial arts school" there is none of that, just me, my bible, my interpretation of it, and a bunch of people depending on me for spiritual guidance and "saving there soul"

Now I find the idea of someone in that position, without any training or checks and balances in place, a rather scary thought.

 

[IWishToLearn]

This logic makes me nervous, and is potentially dangerous. One of my more technically influential early instructors on my kenpo journey taught, specifically, for the purpose of creating a guerilla warfare unit to maintain a state of preparedness against the upcoming forces of the anti-christ. Our focus was on "killer kenpo", along with resistance-level low-tech weaponry, akin to survivalists cookbook stuff. We started and closed each class in prayer. Techniques were modified and grafted along the logic lines of defending surviving evangelists from SS-type forces predicted by absurd end-of-the-world christian authors.

Although a club can be whatever it wants, I like the idea of keeping philosophy, spirituality and religion OFF the mat. Too much room for the insanity of unbalanced minds once they've merged. I live a deeply examined, rich spiritual life, the crux of which I'd be glad to share with anyone who asks. Up to that point, however, kenpo is about concepts, theory, and mechanical application. Not church.

My own thoughts.

Dave

Preach on, brotha Dave.

 

[Carol]

*shrug* It's one heckuva way to bunk out of paying taxes.

An ordination can be had as easily as "click here to download". Then, a few hours with an attorney that specializes in non-profit orgs runs the paperwork to get one established as a religious organization....and...voila! No tax for you!

 

[Tenguru]

You thought wrong.
Sean

Have you let the many benefits of your training blind you? Look at the strikes, targets, and sequencing of kenpo/kempo. When properly applied by a skilled practitioner, do you not think the results exceed simple "self defense"? Perhaps my kenpo training was unusual.

Or maybe you thought wrong.

I also find it ironic that you practice kenpo and your handle is "Touch of death". LOL

 

[Flying Crane]

The kenpo school that I teach at is not a covert christian school. I clearly tell each perspective student that I am an unashamed blood washed christian and that the school is Christ centered. Furthermore, I tell each perspective student that we will begin each class with prayer in the name of Jesus Christ and then I preach a message straight out of the Holy Bible. Not one student or perspective student has ever been told anything else. I tell everyone up front that the school is a christian ministry with the goal of reaching the lost for Christ so that they can have forgiveness of their sins through faith in Christ's death (for their sins), burial, and ressurrection three days later, and that when a person believes this and sincerly calls out in repentance for The Lord Jesus Christ to forgive them and to save them, then he will eternally forgive and save them as God promises in the bible.
Another goal is to encourage and teach fellow christians through the preaching of Gods word, fellowship with likeminded christians in an environment cunducive to their spiritual growth.
Now to the Kenpo... I am a legitimate 2nd generation American Kenpo Black Belt in the Ed Parker kenpo Line. I teach the entire system of American Kenpo as Ed Parker taught it to my teacher, and he subsequently taught it to me for nearly 20 years now. I teach the 154 technique system of Kenpo (with other kenpo techniques not in the 154 taught as additional material). All Forms short1 through long 8, finger sets, blocking sets, kicking sets,stance sets, co-ordination sets, staff sets, two-man set ect..( as well as rebounding sets and tiger and dragon forms)..these last forms and sets are my teachers. We then end in Prayer.

I don't see anything wrong with this, the key being that you are open and honest with all your students, so they enter your school knowing what to expect, and if they stay, that is apparently what they want. I think honesty is the key, and it sounds like that is what you are giving them.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Have you let the many benefits of your training blind you? Look at the strikes, targets, and sequencing of kenpo/kempo. When properly applied by a skilled practitioner, do you not think the results exceed simple "self defense"? Perhaps my kenpo training was unusual.

Or maybe you thought wrong.

I also find it ironic that you practice kenpo and your handle is "Touch of death". LOL

The goal of sequencing and targeting is to control with timimg factors: pain, fear, respect, or death. You have been sold a line. Secondly Touch of Death was a video game on the Simpsons. A game Bart felt was easier than Kenpo class; so, in a sense. Touch of Death is a testiment to how ridiculous the claim is that Kenpo is a Killing Art.
Sean

 

[bushidomartialarts]

gotta go with tenguru on this one. perhaps they teach it differently up there in spokane (i'd blame all those wholesome religious touchy-feely types at gonzaga).

touch of death, i agree that the ultimate goal of martial study has little to do with combative ability. it's about personal evolution, self-expression, self-improvement and making the world a better place.

but of all the martial arts one can choose to take on the journey, kenpo is some brutal stuff. think about striking serpent's head (crushed trachea, anyone?)...back breaker (pretty much just what it sounds like)...leap of death (where you kick him in the head after breaking his neck).

and if you've read or heard anything about the history of our beloved art...those guys were not in it for the flowers. well, maybe lillies. three words for ya, mate: professor william chow.

kudos to your instructor for taking some of the testosterone out of your kenpo experience -- it's a move in the right direction. but let's not be slapping down folks until we're sure we know of what we speak.

 

[Ray]

The goal of sequencing and targeting is to control with timimg factors: pain, fear, respect, or death. You have been sold a line. Secondly Touch of Death was a video game on the Simpsons. A game Bart felt was easier than Kenpo class; so, in a sense. Touch of Death is a testiment to how ridiculous the claim is that Kenpo is a Killing Art.

Question: If gloved boxers occaisionally and without intent strike and kill their opponents, if Mas Oyama could kill bulls with a heel palm, then can striking in kenpo kill someone? (Personally, I haven't killed anyone but you never know when you might need/want to).

 

[Touch Of Death]

Question: If gloved boxers occaisionally and without intent strike and kill their opponents, if Mas Oyama could kill bulls with a heel palm, then can striking in kenpo kill someone? (Personally, I haven't killed anyone but you never know when you might need/want to).

You can die by bumping into a counter top and having a blood clot go straight to your brain. Death is not the issue, its timing. I think Oyama would have had a different experience if they let two or three Bulls loose after him, but that's beside the point. What can result from Kenpo and what the art essentialy is, are two different things. Any fool can gouge an eye out, or crush a trachea but the art is not about specialized moves. They are simply tactics made more lethal by refined motion. Its like saying foot-ball is all about the occassional compound fracture.
Sean

 

[bushidomartialarts]

again, i have to respectfully disagree.

the history of our art is pretty clear: many of the moves were designed to maim, disfigure and kill.

again, i admire your teacher for moving away from our -- interesting -- past. but pick up some of the source material or read interviews with chow or mitose. awareness of past orthodoxy is key to moving beyond them.