chi sau

[KamonGuy2]

Trust me when I say that the schools that do chi sao 'the long way' absolutely destroy other schools at wing chun

I went to Hong Kong recently and basically owned everyone I chi sao'd with. Its not because Im a special talent - Im actually quite an average practitioner within Kamon. What happened was that they were missing fundamental structure and had gotten into bad habits with their chi sao

I will also mention that a certain student of ours was invited to train at another wing chun school (I will supply full details on a PM if required). The student ended up catching the (arrogant) instructor out in a free chi sao roll (the instructor invited the student to attack whenever, and the instructor ended up getting owned). I also know James Sinclair and his students pretty well and will testify that they are not in it for the profit. Sinclair is an extremely good practitioner and has a very good way of teaching students

Schools that rush into training students chi sao from day one probably have nothing else to show them!

It would be like throwing a beginner in boxing into a ring on his first day of training. You need to build up the structure and basic principles of moves first before you can do certain drills

Matsu - trust me when I say that you will end up a far better practitioner of chi sao than many 'non profit' schools lol

 

[matsu]

Thanks kamonguy
I luv a bit of heated emotional debate I think itvshows we are all passionate about our art! And I will learn from it. But I have to defend my corner and my sifu! Lol!
Give me a little time and I'll get to touch hands with u- about five years by the sound of it!
I did a full class on it last night and I couldn't sleep after. So much to take in!
Thanks again for all ur input.
Matsu

 

[chisauking]

ok mate lets clarify a few things i said.....

sifu never uses master- that was my phrase- he is a master of his art in my opinion as indeed my boss at work is a master craftsman of his trade,again in my opinion.
he is regarded highly enough to be invited to teach at the biggest collection of wing chun practioners from all around the world every year in hong kong. not sure that happens to everyone- again this is what i learn matsu

You should at least get your facts right before responding.

If you bother to go onto your sifu's website, he clearly addreses himself as MASTER.

The 'biggest collection of wing chun practitioners from around the world'. Ho, ho, ho, this little gathering mostly consist of sifu Yip chun's guys, which means very little in the eyes of most wing chun practitioners that's actually applied their art for real.

Any way, as I'd said, Im sure you are doing the right thing. Wing chun should take 40-years' to learn, lol.

 

[chisauking]

Trust me when I say that the schools that do chi sao 'the long way' absolutely destroy other schools at wing chun

I went to Hong Kong recently and basically owned everyone I chi sao'd with. Its not because Im a special talent - Im actually quite an average practitioner within Kamon. What happened was that they were missing fundamental structure and had gotten into bad habits with their chi sao

I will also mention that a certain student of ours was invited to train at another wing chun school (I will supply full details on a PM if required). The student ended up catching the (arrogant) instructor out in a free chi sao roll (the instructor invited the student to attack whenever, and the instructor ended up getting owned). I also know James Sinclair and his students pretty well and will testify that they are not in it for the profit. Sinclair is an extremely good practitioner and has a very good way of teaching students

Schools that rush into training students chi sao from day one probably have nothing else to show them!

It would be like throwing a beginner in boxing into a ring on his first day of training. You need to build up the structure and basic principles of moves first before you can do certain drills

Matsu - trust me when I say that you will end up a far better practitioner of chi sao than many 'non profit' schools lol

1) There's absolutely NO proof whatsoever that taking an extremely long time to finish a sylabus or delaying a students learning is better than a fast program or teaching them fast. However, there's plenty of evidence to show that by teaching people early, they can start honeing their skills soon, because they can start the 'doing'.

2) According to you, most doors was closed in your face and your group was made unwelcomed at most schools in Hong Kong, so what schools was left? One of the schools that you did train in was sifu Wan Kam Leung's, so are you saying you owned sifu WKL? Don't worry, you can say it. Sifu WKL is my sibak, so it's easy to ascertain facts.
You say you 'owned' everyone you chisaued with, well, I can believe this, since the HK people are very small, and you are a gaint compared to them. More importantly, did you 'owned' anyone of a high skill level? Don't be shy, you can tell us. (Anyone that don't believe me can check out his HK thread.)

3) You say you are quite average practitioner within kamon. So, what would you rate the chisau\gwohsau as shown by some of their instructors -- that tattooed guy and Chan's brother, I believe? ( I don't know their names, only that we saw them on utube)

4) Comparing the start of chisau against throwing a beginner into the ring is an extremely poor analogy. The begining of chisau is only about the shapes of the tools in rotation (look-sau, if you didn,t know) and dan-chi sau. It's akin to learning how to throw a jab, which is a tool of western boxing. Are you saying boxers should wait 2-years' before learning the jab? Yes, of course, they should learn their structure right before commencing to something so advanced!

5) Showing students the BASICS is not rushing them into their training.

Any way, I'm sure your training is excellent. Making students wait 2-years' before teaching them the basics is a great way to test their temperment & patience, right? If they can't wait that long, then they don't deserve to learn wing chun from a MASTER.

I won't bother repsonding because I'm an advocate of teaching fast, so obviously my skills and knowledge wil be poor compared to you guys that took the long way round. In any case, I would be 'owned' by you long timers, lol.

Somtimes I wonder why so many 'doors' was closed, now I understand.

 

[KamonGuy2]

1) There's absolutely NO proof whatsoever that taking an extremely long time to finish a sylabus or delaying a students learning is better than a fast program or teaching them fast. However, there's plenty of evidence to show that by teaching people early, they can start honeing their skills soon, because they can start the 'doing'.

2) According to you, most doors was closed in your face and your group was made unwelcomed at most schools in Hong Kong, so what schools was left? One of the schools that you did train in was sifu Wan Kam Leung's, so are you saying you owned sifu WKL? Don't worry, you can say it. Sifu WKL is my sibak, so it's easy to ascertain facts.
You say you 'owned' everyone you chisaued with, well, I can believe this, since the HK people are very small, and you are a gaint compared to them. More importantly, did you 'owned' anyone of a high skill level? Don't be shy, you can tell us. (Anyone that don't believe me can check out his HK thread.)

3) You say you are quite average practitioner within kamon. So, what would you rate the chisau\gwohsau as shown by some of their instructors -- that tattooed guy and Chan's brother, I believe? ( I don't know their names, only that we saw them on utube)

4) Comparing the start of chisau against throwing a beginner into the ring is an extremely poor analogy. The begining of chisau is only about the shapes of the tools in rotation (look-sau, if you didn,t know) and dan-chi sau. It's akin to learning how to throw a jab, which is a tool of western boxing. Are you saying boxers should wait 2-years' before learning the jab? Yes, of course, they should learn their structure right before commencing to something so advanced!

5) Showing students the BASICS is not rushing them into their training.

Any way, I'm sure your training is excellent. Making students wait 2-years' before teaching them the basics is a great way to test their temperment & patience, right? If they can't wait that long, then they don't deserve to learn wing chun from a MASTER.

I won't bother repsonding because I'm an advocate of teaching fast, so obviously my skills and knowledge wil be poor compared to you guys that took the long way round. In any case, I would be 'owned' by you long timers, lol.

Somtimes I wonder why so many 'doors' was closed, now I understand.

1 - That is not the argument. When chi sao is introduced at Kamon, the student takes to it very quickly. My argument is that a student at beginner level shoudl be dealing with forming basic structures - how the hell do they know how to move properly in chi sao? Or how to deliver energy properly? Or how to form structures? The proof, as they say, is in the pudding. And so far, th schools that do chi sao from day one tend to struggle

2 - the doors were closed in my students faces. I was lucky enough to train with a few practitioners over there. I picked up some great techniques/tips on formwork/striking/movement. They sucked, however, at chi sao. And yes - one guy was an assistant instructor, another federation was an actual sifu, and another federation I trained with several students
And no, Im not naming or shaming on this thread. Those who know me (in person) on here have seen photos and video. I didnt train with WKL - just watched, and I actually liked some of the things he was teaching. Other things, not so much. I never said I owned everyone in Hong Kong - just the people I chi sao'd with. You dont listen very well do you...

3 - It isnt Chan's brother on youtube. Name is coincidental. He is Michael Chan who doesnt actually train at Kamon much anymore. In spite of this, he still has gone to other federations and didnt think much of their chi sao. Of course, I cant speak on behalf of other individuals so I wont delve too deeply into what they think of other federations
The tattooed guy is James Horgan who is a damn fine practitioner of wing chun. I see him regularly and he his striking ability is second to none
That video was taken years ago and was a basic demonstration of 'soft' chi sao. If you want an up to date version, get to a class and have a look for yourself. Or maybe you are just another keyboard warrior....

4 - I laughed when I read this. You truly are misguided. Lok sao is not chi sao, and if you think that, you need to work on your wing chun a bit more
Lok sao is a drill that does not focus on stick. It works on structure within a given frame, and learning how to roll within that.
It isnt like throwing a jab at all (!!!!). Chi sao is as close as most traditional chunners get to ever sparring (some schools actually say that chi sao IS sparring)
Chi sao rolling is not basic techniques. It involves complex transitioning of the arms and knowing how to move etc. If you are talking of poon sao then maybe you can get away with saying that the structures involved are basic (ie fook saos, bong sao, tan sao etc). The analogy is correct and good thankyou

5 - The only thing I agree on. However, chi sao is not basic.


To answer your response to James Sinclair - he has been labelled a master of wing chun by several individuals, including several proficient instructors from other styles. He has received recognition (that I know of) from Sam Kwok, Ip Chun and Wan Kam Leung. That is all the credentials I need. When I saw him in person I was even more impressed

Its ironic that your Sibak is WKL - he actually said at his last seminar in the UK that it took him 40 years to learn wing chun!!! lol
He was of course referencing the fact that he kept moving from school to school and eventually made his own. But Im sure you can appreciate the irony of you (in your sarcastic tone) suggesting it takes that long to learn wing chun


And yes, I am sure you will be owned by someone shortly, especially with your consistently poor attitude

Yeah, please dont bother responding - we will all be a lot better off. Muppet

 

[blindsage]

Imagine practitioners of different schools of Wing Chun getting in petty arguments over differences in training methods. Whoddathunkit?

 

[chisauking]

I promised I won't respond further to the topic, so I won't.

But I would just like to address the matter of being accused of my 'consistently poor atitute'.

Yes, some people may not like my atitute, but I would suggest that it's impossible to be every thing to every one. At the very least, I'm trying to help people understand wing chun -- albeit in an indirect way. It's always been my way to try to get people to think & help themselves, and sometimes using this method, I need to provoke stimulus.

Unlike others, I'm not here to sell myself or my organisation.

In the short space of time that I've been here, I have seen Kamon guy say negative things about Willy cheung, Leo yeung, Emin boztepe, Leung ting -- and probably countless others which I may have missed.

In nearly every other page, he has promoted his organisation in one way or another.

I believe he's also claimed that he could win sifu WKL in his chisau.

Whilst most people closed the door on his group in hong kong, a few welcomed them to train in their club.......so how does he repay them? Well, here he's, on a public forum, telling everyone how he'd 'OWNED' everyone he's chisaued with.

And.....the guy has the audacity to accuse me of my 'consistently poor atitute'.

Since I'm not an argumentative person, I've decided it's better for me to say goodbye to the people of this forum.

99% of you guys are extremely nice, and despit one or two titheads that come aboard, I still think it's the best wing chun forum around. Don't buy into the BS some people try to sell here -- especially if they say one shouldn't learn the basics of wing chun until after 2-years' of training (what?)

Remember, wing chun is a lot easier than most people would have you believe. With the right thinking & training, one will progress very fast within this beautiful method.

Have fun & train hard!

(brum, brum, brum: sound of my bike disappearing into the sunset, leaving a trail of dust, with the voice of my laughter)

 

[KamonGuy2]

I promised I won't respond further to the topic, so I won't.

But I would just like to address the matter of being accused of my 'consistently poor atitute'.

Yes, some people may not like my atitute, but I would suggest that it's impossible to be every thing to every one. At the very least, I'm trying to help people understand wing chun -- albeit in an indirect way. It's always been my way to try to get people to think & help themselves, and sometimes using this method, I need to provoke stimulus.

Unlike others, I'm not here to sell myself or my organisation.

In the short space of time that I've been here, I have seen Kamon guy say negative things about Willy cheung, Leo yeung, Emin boztepe, Leung ting -- and probably countless others which I may have missed.

In nearly every other page, he has promoted his organisation in one way or another.

I believe he's also claimed that he could win sifu WKL in his chisau.

Whilst most people closed the door on his group in hong kong, a few welcomed them to train in their club.......so how does he repay them? Well, here he's, on a public forum, telling everyone how he'd 'OWNED' everyone he's chisaued with.

And.....the guy has the audacity to accuse me of my 'consistently poor atitute'.

Since I'm not an argumentative person, I've decided it's better for me to say goodbye to the people of this forum.

99% of you guys are extremely nice, and despit one or two titheads that come aboard, I still think it's the best wing chun forum around. Don't buy into the BS some people try to sell here -- especially if they say one shouldn't learn the basics of wing chun until after 2-years' of training (what?)

Remember, wing chun is a lot easier than most people would have you believe. With the right thinking & training, one will progress very fast within this beautiful method.

Have fun & train hard!

(brum, brum, brum: sound of my bike disappearing into the sunset, leaving a trail of dust, with the voice of my laughter)

For the record, I never said that I could own WKL in chi sao. I respect the guy a lot. I was disappointed that whilst in Hong Kong he resorted to cheap tricks to try to impress us when he didnt need to. And that is what annoys me about a majority of skilled chunners to date.

Leung Ting I do not like, purely for personality reasons (if hitting pregnant women wasnt bad enough then his ego is even worse)

Willy Cheng kind of dug his own grave the minute he started spouting that everyone elses wing chun is modified and that he teaches the pure wingchun from Ip Man

Leo Yeung is a complete idiot. In the past few months, he has opened up schools in the same vicinity as other chunners, at exact same times, exact same days of the week. Upon attempting to discuss this with him, he merely said - 'If people want to come down and start something, I know howe to handle myself'. He has approached Kamon instructors to attempt to get them to teach for him (they of course refused).
There is nothing wrong with two chun schools being in the same town, but this guy, for whatever reason tries to set up in the same venue (he tried to open up a class within my class). So yes, I am not impressed with the guy

I have often rooted for Emin Boztepe and even have a clip of him doing chi sao on my phone. I find him a very interesting guy and he has some great theories. If I ever said anything negative, it was probably about his anti grappling which I dont agree with.

For the record, the schools in Hong Kong that 'opened their doors to me' charged me a lot of money to train with them. Ip Chun was very rude to us, although there wer a couple of guys who were very kind
I have never named names for that reason, hence no damage is done. I was merely getting the pint across that those students who do chi sao from day one, tend to suck. Not all, but most.

I do rate Kamon Martial Art Federation very highly, but I wouldnt say I promote it that often. I could come on here everyday and say that it is teh only one that people shoul be doing etc, but I am humble enough to know that there are some very good chun schools out there. I continually reference other schools and Sifu such as Alan Orr, james Sinclair, Viktor Khan, Sam Kwok, etc

I always give federations and Sifus a fair throw of the dice. Ive been doing martial arts a long time and know what works and what doesnt. That doesnt stop me being wrong or misguided, but if I have seen something and experienced something in person, I will express it here. Ive been a pratt on many occasions, but hey, I can admit that. Shame other chunners arent that honest

Chisaoking sounds like he hasnt stepped out of his own kwoon before, and I would reccomend that he goes to other schools and have a look around, rather than troll through the internet, picking on people like Matsu who is one of the keenest and nicest guys I have met through here

Anyway, I wish every other chunner on here a good day and I am sure we will see Chisaoking again (he will probably change his username but his attitude wont change)

 

[Poor Uke]

Re: James Sinclair

I have to agree with Kamon, James Sinclair produces quaility fighters. I have crossed hands with a few people from his organisation and all had very good structure and ability.

The whole taking years to get to chi sau isnt the way I was taught but I do see merit in the method. In fact isnt this the more 'traditional' way of teaching WC?