chi sau help

[matsu]

hi guys
i am loooooooving the chi sau and now that i can roll and have got the feel for its potential i have found i am obviously touching hands with a lot of more experienced guys so i,m getting opened up and bashed alot, and i mean a lot lol
not aggressively but they can fel my weaknesses etc.
and this applies to sparring too actually.. we did lok sau chi sau and sparring on our knees last night.
i get to a stage where i,m able to stick wehter it be two hands on top (for very short time lol) or one up one under but its almost like im freezing up because i know if i move then i,m hit and i,m still to clumsey to disguise my intention or next move.... anyone help out with some thought processes....
not neccesarily particular moves but things to work on to get me over this next stage of learning...
or is it a case of just getting the experience by being beating untill i can stop them lol.

thanks in advance
matsu

 

[WC_lun]

Without seeing what you are doing it is obviously going to be difficult to know what you are doing. What I can tell you is the mistake many people make when a beginner is letting the elbow drift out. This weakens your structure and opens up your centerline, which a Wing Chun guy is gonna spot and take advantage of. Perhaps this is what you are doing?

 

[matsu]

yeah i sorta thought that after i posted... unless youre watching you wouldnt know what to suggest to fix....Doh!!

sifu was straight into another class so i didnt get time to ask him and the advanced guy shot off too quick for me to get some feedback so ill get to both of them next week.

and being a big guy-ex bodybuilding too i find it very tough to keep my elbows in. sifu says im still trying to pull in with pecs and not drive in with lats.practise practise practise.......

thanks for the input tho
matsu

 

[wtxs]

hi guys
i am loooooooving the chi sau and now that i can roll and have got the feel for its potential i have found i am obviously touching hands with a lot of more experienced guys so i,m getting opened up and bashed alot, and i mean a lot lol
not aggressively but they can fel my weaknesses etc.
and this applies to sparring too actually.. we did lok sau chi sau and sparring on our knees last night.
i get to a stage where i,m able to stick wehter it be two hands on top (for very short time lol) or one up one under but its almost like im freezing up because i know if i move then i,m hit and i,m still to clumsey to disguise my intention or next move.... anyone help out with some thought processes....
not neccesarily particular moves but things to work on to get me over this next stage of learning...
or is it a case of just getting the experience by being beating untill i can stop them lol.

thanks in advance
matsu

As with some one just learning to drive, two hands on the steering wheel, white knuckles and all, tense and jerky on straight away and on turns. With time and experience, he can make smooth one handed tight turns while scratching his***s.

The bottom line is ... RELAX, calm mind leads to smooth commands of your extremities, enable them to feel and to "listen".

 

[geezer]

Best advice I ever got was to bury your ego, accept getting hit... a lot, and just focus on your technique: good structure and position, staying relaxed and maintaining forward energy. Then, if your partner hits you repeatedly in the same situation, ask him, "What am I doing that makes it so easy for you to do that?" Good luck and have fun!

 

[matsu]

thanks guys
that is some sound adice i will def take on board.
i can honestly say i have no ego. at 44 i am waaaay past worrying about how cool i look or am perceived by my peers.
i am aware i am seen to be a little aloof or sombre,sullen if you will at times, but that is partly my shyness and partly my intense concentration to try to get the most out of my class and time in training.
once i relax with new people i am very chilled.
and i constsantly pester people with questions. i def need to talk to the guy from last nite, he found it so easy lol.
again thank you
matsu

 

[mook jong man]

but its almost like im freezing up because i know if i move then i,m hit and i,m still to clumsey to disguise my intention or next move.... anyone help out with some thought processes....

Yeah , don't freeze up.
I mean it , if you can't think of what to do , just stay relaxed and keep rolling as correct as you can and let them do what they want.

Your sensitivity and forward force is still at a rudimentary level , so you are still having to think about where there is a gap or a weakness rather than it happening automatically.

The partners would almost certainly be making a mistake here and there when they execute traps and other attacks on you , its just that you can't feel it yet , and don't have the forward force to capitolise on their mistakes.

or is it a case of just getting the experience by being beating untill i can stop them lol.

Pretty much yeah , just wear it , relax so that your not giving them much to work with , sink down and roll as correct as you can with constant relaxed forward force focused at his chest.

A lot of people try to execute traps etc to show off when the trap isn't even there to begin with ie when the hands aren't crossing over it's pretty hard to drop the Fook Sau down and trap both his hands.

So just roll as correct as you can , wrists on the centerline , not wandering over , this can nullify most of what is thrown at you.

Just accept that these people are going to hammer you , there would be something seriously wrong if they couldn't.

Just don't make it any easier for them by tensing up and freezing , forget about them and concentrate on what you are doing , ignore their attacks and just keep on rolling.

 

[matsu]

eloquant as always mr mook
i thank you.
i,m in this for the long haul so i better get used to the fact i got tones to learn.
thanks guys
i hope this thread has helped anyone else remotely at my stage of learning/training.
matsu

 

[KamonGuy2]

eloquant as always mr mook
i thank you.
i,m in this for the long haul so i better get used to the fact i got tones to learn.
thanks guys
i hope this thread has helped anyone else remotely at my stage of learning/training.
matsu

Matsu, did you want to meet up and do some chi sao?
You have a great attitude to chi sao (and wing chun) which is refreshing to see
Im free Sundays. PM me and we will sort something out

 

[matsu]

mate i would love to.
sundays can be a problem at times due to my weekday workload and SWMBO sees that as her day lol but i will definately pm you and would like that.
thanks very much for the offer.
i WILL be in touch
matsu

 

[BloodMoney]

The answer to pretty much 100% of all Chi Sau problems can be answered by doing the following:

1. The form. Lots
2. Chi Sau. Not grappling or sparring, but relaxed Chi Sau making sure you are only rolling with slight forward pressure and only using Bong Sau, Fuk Sau and Tan Sau, not fancy traps and strikes.

Do that lots and youll be right mate

 

[izeqb]

This is a very good thread with a lo of useful info...

 

[cwk]

I'm sort of in the same boat myself. As I've posted before, I went over 2 years without a regular, decent training partner so my sensitivity is not what it should be in chi sao. It's only this last year that I've been getting regular hands on training with a skilled opponent ( even though he's mainly chen taiji,not wing chun) so I've been frantically trying to play catch up in my sensitivity training and getting jammed up was, and still is to some degree, a problem.

What I did ,and am still doing, is really try to tune in to my opponents energy and not worry too much about my own offensive strategy ( or lack there of lol). When jammed up I found most of the time a small shift in stance will let the opponents energy carry on in the direction it was going and simultaneously open up a new line of attack for myself so maybe concentrating on footwork might help. don't be worried about getting hit just try to yield more to your opponents force rather than meeting it head on.
I also took the most common situations where I was getting jammed or hit and then analytically took them apart, came up with various solutions and then drilled them over and over and over and over.
Hope this helps mate.

 

[Vajramusti]

Hi CWK- I understand your points. Some passing comments follow. "Sensitivity"? Of course- but to what when and how? Matter of details... and differences in wing chun and chen style structures and strategies...I would think.

I have had some decent instruction on Chen style basics(Chen Xiao Wang) but
the Fong-Ho version of Ip man wing chun is what I do and prefer from a martial perspective- though I have respect for top flight Chen.

For Ip man wing chun- snesitivity is devloped through the tan/fok/bong cycles, transitions and changes -via single, double chi sao and lap sao and then mun sao, lat sao drills among others.

joy chaudhuri

 

[profesormental]

Greetings.

All I have to add is to stress improving at least one thing purposefully each training session.

The point of Chi Sao is not to overwhelm with speed, but to maneuver the exchange into a position where you are at advantage for enough time that you can strike with significant effect at will.

That means that if the other person struggles, the person will be a danger again in a second or two... and in that time you can clearly show that you could have flailed and brained your training partner at will.

Doing it fast proves nothing, as it is a training exercise with a specific evolution of purposes. There are other exercises for that.

It's like I train for sensitivity and timing, and the other trains for speed and power. My face might get smashed more often than not if I don't have enough skill in timing.

Doing Chi Sao against someone intent on hitting you with deadly or hurtful intent will result in getting smashed... except if you don't play Chi Sao with the person and execute techniques with intent to control, defend or stop the aggression against you.

Remember that Chi Sao is not fighting. It is a tool/game to teach certain things safely in progressive evolutions.

Hope that helps.

 

[cwk]

Hi CWK- I understand your points. Some passing comments follow. "Sensitivity"? Of course- but to what when and how? Matter of details... and differences in wing chun and chen style structures and strategies...I would think.

I have had some decent instruction on Chen style basics(Chen Xiao Wang) but
the Fong-Ho version of Ip man wing chun is what I do and prefer from a martial perspective- though I have respect for top flight Chen.

For Ip man wing chun- snesitivity is devloped through the tan/fok/bong cycles, transitions and changes -via single, double chi sao and lap sao and then mun sao, lat sao drills among others.

joy chaudhuri

my friend does Chen taiji but also has had some brief training from his sifu wong kiew kit in a different style of cho gar to mine so he's not completely clueless when it comes to chi sao.
we mostly use the huen sao type of rolling. he seems more comfortable with this. yes the energy is different from what few wing chun practitioners I've had chance to touch hands with, but I feel this is a good thing.
variety is the spice of life, so they say.

 

[KamonGuy2]

Greetings.

All I have to add is to stress improving at least one thing purposefully each training session.

The point of Chi Sao is not to overwhelm with speed, but to maneuver the exchange into a position where you are at advantage for enough time that you can strike with significant effect at will.

That means that if the other person struggles, the person will be a danger again in a second or two... and in that time you can clearly show that you could have flailed and brained your training partner at will.

Doing it fast proves nothing, as it is a training exercise with a specific evolution of purposes. There are other exercises for that.

It's like I train for sensitivity and timing, and the other trains for speed and power. My face might get smashed more often than not if I don't have enough skill in timing.

Doing Chi Sao against someone intent on hitting you with deadly or hurtful intent will result in getting smashed... except if you don't play Chi Sao with the person and execute techniques with intent to control, defend or stop the aggression against you.

Remember that Chi Sao is not fighting. It is a tool/game to teach certain things safely in progressive evolutions.

Hope that helps.

Extremely good comment. This is the root of chi sao. So many people rush an attack insteadof getting good position. It is good to do it fast once you have worked at the chi sao (just to test it at different levels and under pressure), but then go back to being slow and building it even more!

When you look at Ip Chun - he barely moves. And when he does, its at snails pace. Yet he still wraps people up due to positioning and angles

 

[Domino]

hi guys
i am loooooooving the chi sau and now that i can roll and have got the feel for its potential i have found i am obviously touching hands with a lot of more experienced guys so i,m getting opened up and bashed alot, and i mean a lot lol
not aggressively but they can fel my weaknesses etc.
and this applies to sparring too actually.. we did lok sau chi sau and sparring on our knees last night.
i get to a stage where i,m able to stick wehter it be two hands on top (for very short time lol) or one up one under but its almost like im freezing up because i know if i move then i,m hit and i,m still to clumsey to disguise my intention or next move.... anyone help out with some thought processes....
not neccesarily particular moves but things to work on to get me over this next stage of learning...
or is it a case of just getting the experience by being beating untill i can stop them lol.

thanks in advance
matsu

You shouldn't be getting 'beat' about...thats bad etiquette, how are you supposed to learn?
Chi sau much more slowly than you usually would, ask about 'poon sau' and get your positioning correct, elbows not too close to the body, remember to make the distance between you both comfortable to you.

 

[matsu]

hi domino
dont take me too literally mate
i,m not beaten up lol. we do all sorts of rolling and at times we take it as close to sparring as we can and i mean it to say they get thru more than i would like them to.
and thank you for the other input.
me and my regualr partner actually try to roll very slowly as certain times too.
fanx buddy
matsu

 

[Vajramusti]

my friend does Chen taiji but also has had some brief training from his sifu wong kiew kit in a different style of cho gar to mine so he's not completely clueless when it comes to chi sao.
we mostly use the huen sao type of rolling. he seems more comfortable with this. yes the energy is different from what few wing chun practitioners I've had chance to touch hands with, but I feel this is a good thing.
variety is the spice of life, so they say.

--------------------------------------------------------
I understand your point of view. Thx.

joy chaudhuri