Chi Sau & Grappling

[Hanzou]

What I'm trying to say is, it's easier to establish a clinch from the CMA strategy than from the boxing strategy.

- Boxing is a pure striking art. In boxing, a punch is just a punch.
- CMA is a mix of striking art and grappling art. In CMA, a punch is a punch followed by a "pull".

IMO, to integrate a pure striking art (such as boxing) and a pure grappling art (such as BJJ), something are missing. One of the missing elements is the "pull" after the "punch".

Again, the integration point is the clinch. Boxers know how to set up the clinch, and Jiujiteiros know how to throw and perform takedowns from the clinch.

Hell, a classic saying in Gracie jiujitsu is the following; "If you don't have a good clinch, you don't have good Jiujitsu".

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Boxers know how to set up the clinch, ...

May be I should say that CMA can set up clinch faster than boxing does.

Many of my guys came from western wrestling background. They don't want to train any striking art. How to establish a clinch ASAP is always one of my main interest. The WC "Tan Shou" is a good tool to achieve that.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I may have put up this clip before. The WC "Bon Shou" is very useful in clinch.

 

[Hanzou]

May be I should say that CMA can set up clinch faster than boxing does.

Well we would need more evidence of that. The vast majority of professional fighters utilize the boxer or the muay thai clinch. I think even Sanda fighters use the boxer-style clinch.

Many of my guys came from western wrestling background. They don't want to train any striking art. How to establish a clinch ASAP is always one of my main interest. The WC "Tan Shou" is a good tool to achieve that.

Check out Gracie jiujitsu fundamentals, and Royce Gracie in the early UFCs. Plenty examples of slipping the strike and establishing the clinch from a grappler stand point.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Well we would need more evidence of that. The vast majority of professional fighters utilize the boxer or the muay thai clinch. I think even Sanda fighters use the boxer-style clinch.

I can't prove it yet. May be our next generation will be able to prove it someday.

- A spends 100% effort trying to punch his opponent's head. Even if there is a clinch opportunity, if A can use that opportunity to punch, he will use it for punch.
- B spends 100% effort trying to establish a clinch. Even if there is a punch opportunity, if B can use that opportunity to establish a clinch, B will use it for clinch.

By using this simple logic, B will have better chance to obtain clinch than A will.

 

[Nobody Important]

Agree with that last part.

To use this as a point of discussion, in my experience 2-handed chi sau (taan/bong/fook) isn't something we look to do at all - it's something we have to do because our opponent was able to force us into that position/timeframe. It is used to stop the fight from going into grabbing/grappling, not as a way to enter it. Now, I guess if someone wants to give up the advantage chi sau offers in that situation to agree to grapple/wrestle, that's on them. But IMO it's not efficient use of WC principles, strategy & tactics.



As a point of discussion: Forgetting about range, as there are different ranges and facing for WC chi sau bridging (single hand, 2 hand, open vs close stance, dui ying/jeu ying, etc), I would say WC's chi sau technology is exactly the 'time-frame' between striking and grappling - time-frame being the better term here. And yes, chi sau technology has direct fighting application.

In WC our goal isn't to 'chi', our goal is to hit - it's up to our opponent whether or not we have to chi. This is what Loi Lau Hoi Sung, Lat Sau Jik Chung is all about.

Good post explaining the classical approach and use of the Rolling platform of Chi Sau. I agree with this assessment, but I can also see the validity of grappling when Chi Sau structure for this position/time frame fails to be advantageous and "Clinching" is required to stop the further degradation of the position/structure. Failure under heavy prolonged pressure is inevitable IMO. In this event I could see changing the purpose of Chi Sau in its classical approach to more of a "Pummeling" method that would lend more benefit to grappling than boxing. In Yuen Family Wing Chun we have this secondary approach built in because of our heavy use of Sut Gow and Kam Na techniques. Without free transformation in how Chi Sau could be used it wouldn't be possible. However, it should also be noted that our main form of Chi Sau practice is not the Rolling Platform, but the Two Handed Circling Arm Platform, which allows for adaptation of this transition in pressure/position/distance without affecting approach or use. How Two Hand Circling Arm Chi Sau is used is completely decided by the Inside Line, its all about relative proximity to the opponent, control of the Centerline and leverage over the power side. It is not bound by the constraints of the Rolling Platform and is more adaptable in some respects. I would have to admit though that the Rolling Platform IMO, is better suited for development of boxing structure than the Circling Platform.

 

[KPM]

^^^^^^^ Something similar in Pin Sun Wing Chun

 

[wingchun100]

For some reason, this reminds me of the back and forth between Jesus and Pilate in Jesus Christ Superstar.

"Are you king of the Jews?" "Your words, not mine." "What do you mean by that? That is not an answer!"

I haven't listened to this in a long time... I think I'll bring it back out. The exchange is a little ways in. Pilate asks a long question and Jesus is just like, "nope." Trolls the roman with in line answers that don't say anything.

For some reason this reminds me of a scene from Woody Allen's LOVE AND DEATH. He plays a Russian at the time when Napoleon was invading the country. (Also, it is worth mentioning that he has a brother named Ivan.) Woody is, of course, a pacifist and does not want to fight, so his fellow Russians get on his case about it, like so:

RUSSIAN: What are you going to do when the French rape your sister????

WOODY: I don't have a sister.

RUSSIAN: THAT'S no answer!

WOODY: Who are they going to rape? Ivan? They'll throw up!

Off-topic, but hey...it's not like thread drift is uncommon 'round these parts.

Anyway, yeah...chi sao...like I said before, middle ground between punching and grappling range. Some replies here make me believe some are in agreement with me. Of course, some of this stuff can't be talked about. It has to be seen, like Flying Crane said somewhere else. Too bad that can't happen. Maybe somehow, somewhere, someday, we could host one massive Martial Talk get-together/seminar/training session type of event.

Yeah, that would rock!

 

[drop bear]

Chi sau comes into play when you hand fight basically. which is also a grappling game.

 

[guy b]

Chi sau comes into play when you hand fight basically. which is also a grappling game.

Hand fighting in grappling and chi sau are the opposite of each other. Entirely useless for grappling.

 

[drop bear]

Hand fighting in grappling and chi sau are the opposite of each other. Entirely useless for grappling.

Any particular reason why?

I don't know...... mabye an example or a demonstration of what you are on about here?

 

[guy b]

Any particular reason why?

Reactions built in chi sau are the opposite of those required for grappling hand fighting. Chi sau is not an application drill.

 

[drop bear]

Reactions built in chi sau are the opposite of those required for grappling hand fighting. Chi sau is not an application drill.

Can you give an example of that?

 

[guy b]

Example: grappling hand fighting seeks to establish wrist and elbow control using hands. VT seeks to clear lines to hit using elbows and to build structure for hitting via cooperative exchange of force. Chi sau a drill not used in fighting, hand fighting used directly in fighting.

 

[drop bear]

Example: grappling hand fighting seeks to establish wrist and elbow control using hands. VT seeks to clear lines to hit using elbows and to build structure for hitting via cooperative exchange of force. Chi sau a drill not used in fighting, hand fighting used directly in fighting.

And if you grapple with strikes?

The intent of hand fighting in part is not to secure the limb but to utilise it as a gateway to whatever target you are going for.

 

[Juany118]

Example: grappling hand fighting seeks to establish wrist and elbow control using hands. VT seeks to clear lines to hit using elbows and to build structure for hitting via cooperative exchange of force. Chi sau a drill not used in fighting, hand fighting used directly in fighting.

This is the same in TWC. As a matter of fact we sometimes say that WC is having issues in some quarters because it is becoming a "Chi Sau Culture.". Thing is though, this doesn't appear to be something in any WC Lineage. It appears, imo to have been inserted by a method of teaching. Since most schools, at least is the US, don't teach in a "combative" manner, Chi Sau becomes a form of competition as much as training in many of these schools and this, imo, creates the issue.

 

[guy b]

And if you grapple with strikes?

The intent of hand fighting in part is not to secure the limb but to utilise it as a gateway to whatever target you are going for.

I know about hand fighting having done quite a lot of bjj and holding a purple belt. Chi sau is not applicable because (a) it is a drill, not an application platform and (b) because the strategy of VT is almost exactly the opposite of any sensible grappling strategy. Arms in bjj are handles, things you want to grab so that you can use them, preferably in a way that means you have an advantage over the opponent via leverage (e.g wrist control, wrist and elbow control). Arms in VT are things you want to clear if they get in the way. Chasing hands is an error. Mixing grappling and VT is a recipe for low success in your grappling, and confusion/failure in your VT.

 

[Juany118]

I know about hand fighting having done quite a lot of bjj and holding a purple belt. Chi sau is not applicable because (a) it is a drill, not an application platform and (b) because the strategy of VT is almost exactly the opposite of any sensible grappling strategy. Arms in bjj are handles, things you want to grab so that you can use them, preferably in a way that means you have an advantage over the opponent via leverage (e.g wrist control, wrist and elbow control). Arms in VT are things you want to clear if they get in the way. Chasing hands is an error. Mixing grappling and VT is a recipe for low success in your grappling, and confusion/failure in your VT.

We are actually in agreement here man, which is kind of a shocker. it is just a drill.

I would add that, for my lineage, it is also about sensitivity. Learning to feel your opponent's structure. This provides you with information that is useful in a fight. I didn't believe it until the first night I did it with my eyes closed. That made me focus on what I felt and there was a lot of information there.

It is this information that I think useful in grappling. You learn to feel weakness in structure, which is VERY important in grappling. We may disagree on that but in the end, yes, it's a drill.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It is this information that I think useful in grappling. You learn to feel weakness in structure, which is VERY important in grappling. We may disagree on that but in the end, yes, it's a drill.

That makes a lot of sense. I use drills of a similar nature to help students develop that sensitivity. It's important in any grappling - moreso in the aiki arts.

 

[drop bear]

I know about hand fighting having done quite a lot of bjj and holding a purple belt. Chi sau is not applicable because (a) it is a drill, not an application platform and (b) because the strategy of VT is almost exactly the opposite of any sensible grappling strategy. Arms in bjj are handles, things you want to grab so that you can use them, preferably in a way that means you have an advantage over the opponent via leverage (e.g wrist control, wrist and elbow control). Arms in VT are things you want to clear if they get in the way. Chasing hands is an error. Mixing grappling and VT is a recipe for low success in your grappling, and confusion/failure in your VT.

Bjj is just a drill to refine your ground work for mna.

But it also has application. They are not mutually exclusive.

Otherwise the strategy has probably evolved from VT a bit by the time it gets to grappling application.