Chi Sau - Can Different Styles/Branches Roll Together?

[LFJ]

Thus far, meeting up with other chunners, I've run into all sorts of situations. Some were way more skilled than I, some decidedly my junior. Some liked to root and be stationary others would float around. Some liked to hit hard, other threw kicks into their chisao... you get the idea. In all cases, I've walked away with something to think about. Sure, sometimes it had to do with improving my chisao skills for their own sake. But usually it was a consequence of the way the other practitioner was less predictable that the guys who I train with every week.

And so... you go on looking to improve your chi-sau skills against different styles of chi-sau, but... what about the free fighting?

I grab every opportunity to free spar with various styles, then go back to my chi-sau/gwoh-sau to iron out errors that were drawn out under the pressure of free sparring. What is your chi-sau in reference to? Just chi-sau? Is your goal nothing beyond that stage of training? If it's just a fun hobby then that's cool, I suppose. For me, I don't understand this fascination.

 

[LFJ]

What? Your objective isn't to become this guy? Contact juggling presented by National Geographic. [VIDEO]

Whoa! Did he apprentice under Jareth, the Goblin King?

 

[Argus]

As yak sao stated, I find it's pretty easy to mesh with other lineages when it comes to rolling.

I feel that, if you touch hands with another practitioner only to find that you are full of holes in the roll, then your understanding of position is poor; and the same with them. It's not a good thing, IMO, to get too used to partners who always keep their hands on a certain line, or chase hands even, and who may not take advantage of holes you present. Rolling with outside practitioners is one way you can learn to adapt better to more diverse feedback.

There definitely are those who misunderstand chisao, that I've crossed hands with, though. You've got the oxs with immoveable arms, and the crazy-fast-but-sloppy guys who try to over power you with quickly executed combinations. As dumb as it is to roll with these kinds of guys, and as much as sparring is a far better way of gauging skill at that point, it can nonetheless still be informative. You can usually find holes in the "Oxes" by taking a very soft approach and letting them open up lines of attack for you, and you can shut down the speedy-sloppy-slappy type with a bit of extra forward pressure and good lat-sao-jik-chung. It's usually not very safe to chisau with the latter type, though, and in either case you are better off just sparring if your goal is to compare skill.

The key difference is whether the other party treats chisao as an exercise to mutually develop skill, or some kind of sparring match. The former is good practice regardless of the lineages involved.

 

[dlcox]

While I believe that "Sticking Hands" is a useful exercise for development of reflexes, timing and response I also find it limited, outdated and at times unrealistic. For me the problem lies in the framework, especially with "Rolling Hands" structure. To me "Rolling Hands" limits the practitioner's response to specific patterns based upon the limited range of movement and angles from which one is forced to respond from, especially in a boxing format. What if your natural reaction is to grapple? How does one effectively respond when what they are comfortable with is taken away because of the framework? This isn't always a bad thing as it forces the practitioner to develop a skill set that they are uncomfortable and limited with, but it also stifles the ability to perfect what they are naturally inclined to due. As KPM and LFJ have alluded to I believe that sparring is way more effective. It introduces a variety of ranges and methodologies that can be employed and allows the practitioners to focus on their strengths as well as when in "Trouble" work on their weaknesses, but it gives opportunity, opportunity that is not always present within the structure and format of "Sticking Hands". IMO it is an exercise that constantly suppresses the natural urges of some practitioners and forces them to conform to a method they are not comfortable with. As stated earlier this isn't necessarily a bad thing, as it makes one work on deficiencies, but this also suppresses natural reaction and forces one to "Work" within a limited frame with awkward positioning and structure, and this IMO isn't realistic. Conflict is way too organic and cannot be forced to fit into a neatly bundled package and expected to remain there. Starting from a distance without contact like in boxing or free-style wrestling is realistic and from here you can employ your personal preferences on strategy and use of Yong Chun technique and methodologies based upon your understanding of them not someone else's. It will require all the skill sets developed in "Sticking Hands" and a whole lot more, especially response to heavy pressure, which is really the only thing that matters in a "Real" situation. Though not useless, I don't find "Sticking Hands" or "Rolling Hands" a practical test of skill or the standard by which to judge one's level or understanding of Yong Chun. If it truly was the standard and as practical as many tout it to be, it would be seen and utilized by top fighters in professional MMA. Since it's not a secret known only to arcane Yong Chun masters and has been known to the general public for many years, I think it safe to assume that it isn't as practical or as effective as many may believe, it's just a skill developing tool, not a measure of prowess or a skill necessary to effectively defend oneself.

 

[Vajramusti]

While I believe that "Sticking Hands" is a useful exercise for development of reflexes, timing and response I also find it limited, outdated and at times unrealistic. -------------------\



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We differ- chi sao and good Ip Man wing chun -compliment each other in developing the full range of
wing chun approach to martial activity.

 

[dlcox]

While I believe that "Sticking Hands" is a useful exercise for development of reflexes, timing and response I also find it limited, outdated and at times unrealistic. -------------------\



-----------------------------------------------
We differ- chi sao and good Ip Man wing chun -compliment each other in developing the full range of
wing chun approach to martial activity.

Perhaps within the confines of Yong Chun, have yet to see it effectively employed against a good wrestler versed in "Pummeling" or a good Boxer versed in "Clinch Control" let alone against a decent Long Fist practitioner. I'm not saying it is a useless exercise just not convinced that it is the "Highest" achievement one can attain, let alone the most practical. IMO too limited in design, structure and use. I think it is an antiquated exercise that way too many place way too much emphasis on. It does have some good points of instruction, but for me too limited. I respect your viewpoint Joy, but I think on this we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[Vajramusti]

Perhaps within the confines of Yong Chun, have yet to see it effectively employed against a good wrestler versed in "Pummeling" or a good Boxer versed in "Clinch Control" let alone against a decent Long Fist practitioner. I'm not saying it is a useless exercise just not convinced that it is the "Highest" achievement one can attain, let alone the most practical. IMO too limited in design, structure and use. I think it is an antiquated exercise that way too many place way too much emphasis on. It does have some good points of instruction, but for me too limited. I respect your viewpoint Joy, but I think on this we will have to agree to disagree.

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Disagreements are ok. Regarding what you have "seen". One of my graduated students was an All American Greco Roman wrestler. Chisao skills helped him immensely.I wont give you many other anecdotes.
And- watching you tube and ufc are not the only universes.

 

[Punchy]

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Disagreements are ok. Regarding what you have "seen". One of my graduated students was an All American Greco Roman wrestler. Chisao skills helped him immensely.I wont give you many other anecdotes.
And- watching you tube and ufc are not the only universes.

I too have found chi sau immensely useful in dealing with grapplers.

Chi sau training is not just the arms...it is the shoulder, the hips, the legs....the whole body.

 

[Kwan Sau]

Chi sau training is not just the arms...it is the shoulder, the hips, the legs....the whole body.

Exactly! !!!!

 

[KPM]

One of my graduated students was an All American Greco Roman wrestler. Chisao skills helped him immensely.I wont give you many other anecdotes.
.

Helped him immensely to do what? A better gauge would be whether one of your other "graduated students" was able to use his Chi Sau skills to easily shut down your All American when he chose to aggressively apply his wrestling skills to take them down and pin them. Did that ever happen?

 

[dlcox]

[QUOTEit uselessVajramusti;1669260]

I too have found chi sau immensely useful in dealing with grapplers.

Chi sau training is not just the arms...it is the shoulder, the hips, the legs....the whole body.

Like I said, I don't believe it a useless exercise just antiquated. Yes it does require full body movement, conceptually it is good and I believe lends itself well to grappling especially understanding "Pummeling". The problem for me lies in the framework and platform for which traditional "Sticking Hands" is performed. There have been numerous discussions on use of Chi Shou concepts versus traditional Chi Shou use. Many traditionalist have stated that anything that deviates beyond the platform and structure is not "Correct", etc. To me "Hand Fighting", "Pummeling" & "Grip Fighting" all share the same concepts as Chi Shou yet the platform, structure and theory of use has been vehemetly shot down as not being Chi Shou by many traditionalist. Now it seems many are recanting their stance, which is it? Can Chi Shou be conceptual and flexible or does it have to reside within the platform and framework to be considered Chi Shou? You can't have both or choose one or the other when it suits you then argue against the other. Also, as much as it saddens me, I have yet to see a strict traditional Yong Chun stylist perform well against another style in a full contact arena, where the majority of Yong Chun practitioners agree that what they are seeing is what they fundamentally regard as Yong Chun. I have seen modified Yong Chun concepts used in full contact and had many disagree with me that what they were seeing did not resemble Yong Chun as they understood it and if it wasn't labeled so wouldn't have guessed it. I think that when it comes to Chi Shou we can't have that gray area, everyone needs to pick a side. Traditional or conceptual.

 

[Vajramusti]

Like I said, I don't believe it a useless exercise just antiquated. Yes it does require full body movement, conceptually it is good and I believe lends itself well to grappling especially understanding "Pummeling". The problem for me lies in the framework and platform for which traditional "Sticking Hands" is performed. There have been numerous discussions on use of Chi Shou concepts versus traditional Chi Shou use. -----------------------
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Each to his own. Very likely you are doing a different kind of wing chun. Chi sao (you are using Mandarin?). IMO it is not antiquated. It deals with Ip Man's approach
to the dynamics of motion---of angles, of timings, of lines, of distance of structure and function, and dealing with gravitational paths,and any incoming force. Good Ip Man wing chun is still rare despite the proliferation of the words "wing chun". Not being cantankerous.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Chinese 黐手
Cantonese chi[SUP]1[/SUP] sau²
Mandarin chǐshǒu

As to the main question

Chi Sau - Can Different Styles/Branches Roll Together?

I'm not a Wing Chun guy, I basically just play around with it, but I know that Wing Chun guys doing Chi Sau can roll with taiji guys doing push hands.

 

[dlcox]

Like I said, I don't believe it a useless exercise just antiquated. Yes it does require full body movement, conceptually it is good and I believe lends itself well to grappling especially understanding "Pummeling". The problem for me lies in the framework and platform for which traditional "Sticking Hands" is performed. There have been numerous discussions on use of Chi Shou concepts versus traditional Chi Shou use. -----------------------
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Each to his own. Very likely you are doing a different kind of wing chun. Chi sao (you are using Mandarin?). IMO it is not antiquated. It deals with Ip Man's approach
to the dynamics of motion---of angles, of timings, of lines, of distance of structure and function, and dealing with gravitational paths,and any incoming force. Good Ip Man wing chun is still rare despite the proliferation of the words "wing chun". Not being cantankerous.

Yes I use mandarin, because of my northern roots.

You are correct good Ye Wen Yong Chun is hard to find. I respect your opinion and lineage very much, my first Yong Chun instructor was a student of your shifu. It is very likely that my opinions are swayed by my experinces and preferences for northern type arm control. For me, while Chi Shou concepts lend themselves to grappling, the platform and structure lend themselves better to boxing. Perhaps I simply don't understand it well enough but to my defence I haven't yet come across anyone who could handle a good grappler using Chi Shou performed within the confines of the platform and traditional structure. For me this poses a problem with rigid adherence to Yong Chun principles. I am very much in line with John Wang's approach to the subject which I know many traditionalist are opposed to and say isn't really Yong Chun, conceptually I disagree with the traditionalists. IMO Chi Shou, while useful, is not all inclusive and doesn't address all the issues seen outside the framework of classical Yong Chun. The various strategies and platforms of Chi Shou employed by the many branches of Yong Chun tend to lead me to believe that an all inclusive method that deals with all the ranges and methods of unarmed combat has yet to be achieved.

 

[Punchy]

An excellent summation of chi sau.

 

[Vajramusti]

Yes I use mandarin, because of my northern roots.

You are correct good Ye Wen Yong Chun is hard to find. I respect your opinion and lineage very much, my first Yong Chun instructor was a student of your shifu. It is very likely that my opinions are swayed by my experinces and preferences for northern type arm control. For me, while Chi Shou concepts lend themselves to grappling, the platform and structure lend themselves better to boxing. Perhaps I simply don't understand it well enough but to my defence I haven't yet come across anyone who could handle a good grappler using Chi Shou performed within the confines of the platform and traditional structure. For me this poses a problem with rigid adherence to Yong Chun principles. I am very much in line with John Wang's approach to the subject which I know many traditionalist are opposed to and say isn't really Yong Chun, conceptually I disagree with the traditionalists. IMO Chi Shou, while useful, is not all inclusive and doesn't address all the issues seen outside the framework of classical Yong Chun. The various strategies and platforms of Chi Shou employed by the many branches of Yong Chun tend to lead me to believe that an all inclusive method that deals with all the ranges and methods of unarmed combat has yet to be achieved.

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I understand your perspective and respect it. We have stated our positions and I wont argue.

 

[Vajramusti]

Chinese 黐手
Cantonese chi[SUP]1[/SUP] sau²
Mandarin chǐshǒu

As to the main question



I'm not a Wing Chun guy, I basically just play around with it, but I know that Wing Chun guys doing Chi Sau can roll with taiji guys doing push hands.

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Yes they can if the parties check their egos. A wing chun friend of mine- I have been out of touch with him for some time-actually entered push hand
contest with taiji guys- he pushed with CXW protégé Ren. Ren complained that he was using too much "force".

 

[Xue Sheng]

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Yes they can if the parties check their egos. A wing chun friend of mine- I have been out of touch with him for some time-actually entered push hand
contest with taiji guys- he pushed with CXW protégé Ren. Ren complained that he was using too much "force".

Interesting, I am not anywhere near the skill level of Ren Guangyi, but that is the same thing I said. The only other thing I noticed is that they did not pay attention to their feet. Root was good, moving the root was good, but it was rather easy to get my foot next to theirs for a sweep, or a Chen style stomp. But please do not take this the wrong way, I was getting pummeled more often than not.

 

[Vajramusti]

Interesting, I am not anywhere near the skill level of Ren Guangyi, but that is the same thing I said. The only other thing I noticed is that they did not pay attention to their feet. Root was good, moving the root was good, but it was rather easy to get my foot next to theirs for a sweep, or a Chen style stomp. But please do not take this the wrong way, I was getting pummeled more often than not.

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Good sharing of perspectives.

 

[LFJ]

Yes I use mandarin, because of my northern roots.

I first learned CMA from a Korean guy who taught all the terminology in Korean. It was very annoying to have to figure out how everything translated back into Chinese so I could communicate with others in the wider community who use the native language the style is taught in...

The various strategies and platforms of Chi Shou employed by the many branches of Yong Chun tend to lead me to believe that an all inclusive method that deals with all the ranges and methods of unarmed combat has yet to be achieved.

It's called free sparring... People should, in my opinion, look at chi-sau as a training stage and tool like the forms. That way they might realize there is a further stage for free fight training, and it's not chi-sau!