Checking the Storm...

[Rob_Broad]

By kicking their the attackers leg knee you are cancelling their height and lower their hed for the ensuing backfist. The backfist will be stronger if it strikes parallel to the ground and even stronger if travelling diagoanlly downward than it would if it had to strike up to the attackers head.

 

[Rob_Broad]

I should have stated kicking their left leg with your right side kick. If you were to kick somehow kick the right knee with your right side kick you could accidentally cause their head to snap into you on the way down.

 

[Rob_Broad]

He can fall to your groin, but not if you close your line by extending the leg and rolling your hip inward. This is going to come down to the semantics fo how big the attacker and the defender are. I am not a tal person so it is easier for me to close my line than it is for a taller person.

 

[Rob_Broad]

Originally posted by kenpo3631

But if you cross check him your body is already in position to check off the unintentional attack. No need to roll anything.


How do you roll the hip by the way? Just turn the foot inboard?

And if you retain the attacking arm at the hand as it is still holding the club you can control the attacker as he drops, again it comes down to your personal kenpo, the techniques must be tailored to fit the individual. Since I am a smaller guy Iwould rather keep a little distance between the attacker and me until the final strike.

 

[Rob_Broad]

Mr. Bonner

I just read your last 2 posts. The first was was very well put together and very insightful. May I suggest you not deferr to people just because they are a higher rank. We all are just students regardless of what color we wear around our waist. You may have a different way of looking at the same thing and that might just be the little bit we all missed, overlooked, or forgot about.

Most instructors learn as much from their students as the students learn from them.

 

[Rob_Broad]

As I like to put it, "we are all just glorified white belts"

 

[WilliamTLear]

Originally posted by Mace

SB,
I have to agree with Mr Broad here, you asked some very good questions that everyone could benifit from. We are all here to learn.
The what if's for techs are virtually endless, but here is where I've gone with checking the storm. What if the attacker has a clue about using the club or puts some speed and authority behind his strikes. I've found with a foam club ( much to my dismay) that almost all the time if your attacker is running even mildly realistic with the overhead and then inward strike you are going to get hit. Hard. And it stings with the foam club, forget it being a real stick or bottle. Now some may argue that stepping off to 3 and firing out the kick will negate the club, but I haven't seen it done at good speeds without the defender getting whacked with the stick. Just my findings, take em for what they are worth.
As to the X block found in obstructing, there's another one where you probably will get cracked in the head with the stick. The wrist still has mobility when the block is executed and force alone will probably bring the club to the top of your head. Again, just what I've found at good speeds.
Respectfully,
Mace

Mace,

I have found that if you block at or above the elbow in Obstructing the Storm with the "X" Block as you call it, the stick can't really get to your head. While stepping toward your attacker, get a little more depth with that initial block and you will probably find the same.

When blocking on the inside of an opponent's arm, do so below the elbow -- never above it.

When blocking on the outside of an opponent's arm, do so at or above the elbow -- never below it.

I find that the above principles apply to verticle action as well as horizontal action. You may find the same.

I hope this helps,
Billy Lear :asian:

 

[Blindside]

Last winter I was working out with an AK instructor who also teaches Doce Pares escrima. He told us the tech was originally designed for a club attack, and said that he teaches for a right hook. (Implication is that he doesn't like this tech for a club.)

He taught it with the front kick to the groin, knife edge to the left knee, while holding onto the opp wrist to push/pull them into the backfist.

Donald,

how are you snapping the club out of their hand? Is your left hand on the club itself? If so why not torque the club to the outside of the opp body, and as you are stepping out, slam your right forearm onto the back of the opp hand/wrist to pop open the hand. I dunno, just an idea. (And hey, I just repeated what Scott said...., great minds think alike :shrug

Lamont

 

[Blindside]

Thank you for your in depth response Dr. Chapel,

Lamont

 

[Blindside]

This may be an aside, but if the definition of the club is something "that you wouldn't want to drop on your foot." How do you explain the club form. I've heard that the "kenpo club" is different than an escrima stick because it is tailored to you.... yada yada yada. Dr. Chapel, your definition is significantly different than most, and honestly one that I buy more than most. If so, why did (or did he) Mr. Parker call the sticks used in Form 7 kenpo clubs?

Anyone?

Lamont

 

[Mace]

Quick question for everyone,
How many people actually swing a club the way the attack is written? I know my shoulder can't take it personally.
Respectfully,
Mace

 

[Mace]

Hey Lance,
When I originally learned the tech, it was an overhead attack that continued into an inward attack. So to answer your question, I don't think that the attacker would stop after the first swing. To answer my question, I also don't think any attacker would come straight overhead with the first strike. Put a stick (foam hopefully ) into a white belts hand and ask them to take a shot at your head. I'm willing to bet it'll be on a 45.
Respectfully,
Mace (who's gonna jam em and not wait for the big piece of wood to find me stepping away)

 

[Mace]

Hi Seig,
That's about how I have the tech for the ideal phase, too. But I've found pretty much anything after the ideal, and you are getting whacked with a stick, whether to the left shin/thigh, left OEB, or right side of the head. Just what I've found when picking up the pace of the club for realism.
Respectfully,
Mace

 

[Mace]

Hey Klondike,
I'd probably go with calming the storm to get to the inside of the attack and just guard and tuck the head more. I wouldn't recommend evading if you were taught to step up to 10:30, you'll be stepping right into the orbit of most people's swing. If you were taught to go back on a 45, its slightly better but should be executed quickly. That's my thought, anyway.
Respectfully,
Mace

 

[Mace]

SB,
I have to agree with Mr Broad here, you asked some very good questions that everyone could benifit from. We are all here to learn.
The what if's for techs are virtually endless, but here is where I've gone with checking the storm. What if the attacker has a clue about using the club or puts some speed and authority behind his strikes. I've found with a foam club ( much to my dismay) that almost all the time if your attacker is running even mildly realistic with the overhead and then inward strike you are going to get hit. Hard. And it stings with the foam club, forget it being a real stick or bottle. Now some may argue that stepping off to 3 and firing out the kick will negate the club, but I haven't seen it done at good speeds without the defender getting whacked with the stick. Just my findings, take em for what they are worth.
As to the X block found in obstructing, there's another one where you probably will get cracked in the head with the stick. The wrist still has mobility when the block is executed and force alone will probably bring the club to the top of your head. Again, just what I've found at good speeds.
Respectfully,
Mace

 

[Mace]

Scott,
I think you are right on with your what if questioning. What if my first move didn't work is only one example of what if questioning. I teach the attack for this tech as more of a roundhouse or diagonal attack because I think that is what you will be more likely to see these days. Checking may be written for an overhead, but with FMA and stick fighting becoming more and more practiced, you'll be lucky to see an overhead. The times are changing from when it was written. Also, with televised martial arts, whether tv or movie, people have a better idea how to use a weapon. I really think you would see a baseball pitch style attack, on the 45 downward, rather than an overhead which is not a natural motion for the shoulder if done with speed. Just my thoughts.
Respectfully,
Mace

 

[Mace]

Thanks for your post Billy, that is something that I had considered.
Doc stated:

With a foam club that is unerstandable. However when you add a real club with significant heft to it (which is why he picked it up) you'll find the extra weight on the end of the arm in conjunction with a committed strike will not facilitate a change of direction very easily.

With a baseball bat or tire iron this may be the case, but with a broken pool cue or car antenae (have witnessed both) this is not the case. Thank you for your input though, its food for thought.
Respectfully,
Mace

 

[Mace]

Doc,
As you have achieved that rank that you hold and are knowledgeable in the advanced concepts of American Kenpo, I will only offer these last opinions and from this point differ to you.
I have witnessed Checking the storm, Evading, and Obstructing performed with the prescribed attack with the defender wearing kendo armor. A club was used, but I guess that it did not have the "ideal" weight and heft. My sticks are only slightly heavier than foam ones and move almost at the same speed, fast. I will have to check the web of knowledge to see how many ounces each stick should "ideally" weigh. Anyway, thank God for the armor because the abuse that the defenders forearms and head took was not pretty. The questions that sprang from this were not "what if", but "how". How do we get out of the line of attack without offering up our arms, head, or body to the stick, primarily on the initial attack but also on a follow up as can be done in Checking. I guess this practical examination of the techs is wrong, but I can live with that. I know that the techs that are taught to yellow belts in my association will save their lives as is. And its not checking the storm but a replacement.
As for focusing on basics and not techs, I'm going to assume that was not directed at me, even though I seem to fall in the "motion Kenpo" category. My classes hammer on the basics. Methods of execution, angles, paths, grafting of execution, dimesional striking, forward projection and on and on are all taught through the color ranks, at a level that is compatible with the student and belt. These are then examined within the the framework of the techs as ideas of motion. This is probably wrong as well, but that's okay with me too.
Anyway, thank you for the insights, I'm bowing out from here. These are just my opinions, and as I've stated, I'm probably wrong.
Mace

 

[Mace]

Your definition is appreciated and points are also well taken. Have you found that you need to alter what you do when dealing with a "stick" as opposed to a "club"? Does your curiculuum address the possibility of both attacks or at least differentiate between the two? Also, do you think that a lighter or heavier weapon will more than likely be encountered on the street? I know I can find examples of both in my truck.
Respectfully,
Mace
(not sure if you were asking, but yes I'm male)

 

[Kirk]

I learned it as a left kick to the groin followed by a right knife
edge kick to the inside of the attacker's right knee.