Ridgehands (and other strikes in that direction)

[punisher73]

In regards to the "inverted backfist". If you look at old school bareknuckle boxing, this is how a hook punch (longer range) to the head would have been thrown to protect the knuckles and insure that they were the part of the hand landing.

 

[skribs]

Follow-up to this. I tested the ridge-hand strike with the following three striking implements:

• Open ridge-hand
• Fist ridge-hand (opposite of the hammerfist)
• Forearm

There was a massive increase in power using the forearm. The open ridge-hand and the fist ridge-hand were exactly the same, averaging 257.67 each. The forearm was 476.33 on average.

I did a less scientific test this time, I only did 3 hits and averaged the 3 hits. However, the difference was noticeable. What's more interesting is that with the ridge-hands, my first hit was significantly stronger. It hurt to use with all my force, so I lightened up on the second two hits. With the forearm, my first hit was the weakest. I imagine if I would have done the same test as before (5 hits, drop the lowest and highest), the difference would have been even bigger.

There was a roughly 84% increase in power using the forearm instead of the ridge-hand. While I didn't directly compare it to the other strikes I tested in the first post, we can use relational math (compare the ratio of forearm:ridge-hand to mid hook:ridge-hand, for example) and see that this can be one of the strongest strikes.

 

[Flying Crane]

Interesting data.

In my opinion this is relevant to the individual and not indicative of the strike itself on a broad level. It depends on the individual’s skill and comfort with the strike, and the specific body mechanics used to deliver the strike. For example, I am a big fan of the top of the closed fist. Off the top of my head I can think of three different ways that we deliver the strike, each using some different body mechanics, each method yielding different but powerful results. So I think it’s impossible to just say that “this” strike yields “that” result and expect it to be consistent across the board, with everyone. So It depends.

I think the best answer is that it depends on the person and that person’s skill and comfort with the strike. But yes, any of these can be tremendously effective if delivered by someone who is good at it.

 

[isshinryuronin]

There was a roughly 84% increase in power using the forearm instead of the ridge-hand

There is a time and situation for a ridge hand. I've used it, but not often. It's a longer range weapon and the point of contact is far-removed from the body's core. It's more of a tight whip, with not much penetration. The forearm, being closer to the core, and not having a wrist joint in between, does have far greater power. Your test results prove this, but 84% stronger was a surprise. It is capable of a finishing blow to under the chin, side or back of the head, and could also crack ribs. The forearm is a closer range weapon and one of my favorites. I'm a little surprised the forearm is not used often in MMA, at least that I've noticed.

 

[skribs]

There is a time and situation for a ridge hand. I've used it, but not often. It's a longer range weapon and the point of contact is far-removed from the body's core. It's more of a tight whip, with not much penetration. The forearm, being closer to the core, and not having a wrist joint in between, does have far greater power. Your test results prove this, but 84% stronger was a surprise. It is capable of a finishing blow to under the chin, side or back of the head, and could also crack ribs. The forearm is a closer range weapon and one of my favorites. I'm a little surprised the forearm is not used often in MMA, at least that I've noticed.

I think now you have to look at other factors than power.

1. I don't have the means to test speed, but I'm pretty sure it's slower than a hook or elbow strike.
2. The motion also creates a bigger gap in my guard while I'm executing it.
3. The extra several inches taken by your wrist and your hand is extra length that can be targeted and grabbed by your opponent.

I do agree it would seem to be a technique that could be used more, but there is a tradeoff for that power.

 

[dvcochran]

This is an extension of the conversation regarding ridgehands in this thread. I thought this particular post deserved it's own thread instead of a continuation there. To summarize, we were discussing ridge-hand techniques, and how I didn't think they were effective. @drop bear said he would use an inverted backfist for that scenario. I hypothesized that it was a weak punch. I also said I would try it out.

My testing method was to use the StrikeMeter I got for Christmas last year. For the purpose of this test, I was standing to BOB's left, and every strike was aimed at the face level. The numbers the system provides are meaningless by themselves, and only matter when compared to each other. Strikes at different levels would result in different values, which is why all strikes were aimed at the head.

I was not wearing gloves, which did impact my willingness to use a few of the strikes (notably the ridgehand). I tested techniques that are done from the side, but through the centerline of the target. I tested each strike 5 times. I am posting the average of the middle three tests (drop the lowest and highest score, and average out the remaining scores).

Left Twist Kick 151
Left Backfist 226
Right Inside Chop 267
Right Ridgehand 276
Right Inside Hammerfist 278
Right Long Hook 284
Left Spin Hook Kick 291
Right Short Hook 297
Left Outside Crescent Kick 303
Left Back Elbow 322
Right Mid Hook 372
Left Chop 378
Right Inverted Backfist 385
Left Hammerfist 413
Right Cross Elbow 430
Right Roundhouse Kick 514
Right Inside Crescent Kick 526

I should note that the twist kick was at the peak of my flexibility for that kick, and I've trained it very little on the left leg. I'm actually surprised the ridgehand came in stronger than the inside chop, although I'm not surprised that it was one of the weaker strikes. I intended to (and forgot to) test the reverse hammerfist version of the ridgehand, as well as the forearm versions. Next weekend I'll compare ridgehand, reverse hammerfist, and inside forearm strike.

The other thing that surprised me is how strong the inverted backfist that @drop bear recommended. This was essentially my first time using it, and it was the 3rd strongest of the 12 different hand strikes I tested. I expected it to be below the left backfist.

Similarly, I'm surprised the crescent kick came in stronger than the roundhouse. Although I felt off with the roundhouse kicks today (same with spin hook kick).

I'm also impressed by how fists did compared to knife-hand strikes. The inside hammer fist was 4% stronger, and the left-hand hammerfist was 9% stronger, and it was pretty consistently stronger. It also felt so much better on my hand when striking. That's not to say the chops are bad - I think they're more useful for sliding into spaces the fist might not fit. But the fist techniques definitely have an edge in terms of how I can deliver power with them.

I think the greatest factor here in regards to impact force is the compressibility of any side handed, open hand strike, and even a closed hand strike to a lesser degree versus using a solid member like the forearm.
Impact force is going to be exponentially greater against a solid member every time. Your numerical results are a good example of this.
One of the keys to any strike, especially a side handed strike is conditioning the member and the ability to tense up and better solidify the member. Something most JMA styles emphasize in training. Not something that is seen as often in most KMA's.
I used to make the mistake of striking more with my thumb knuckle (which hurt like hades). I finally figured out to tuck my thumb more and roll my hand over slightly. Made a ton of difference.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I think now you have to look at other factors than power.

1. I don't have the means to test speed, but I'm pretty sure it's slower than a hook or elbow strike.
2. The motion also creates a bigger gap in my guard while I'm executing it.
3. The extra several inches taken by your wrist and your hand is extra length that can be targeted and grabbed by your opponent.

I do agree it would seem to be a technique that could be used more, but there is a tradeoff for that power.

I'm not talking about a huge arcing, swinging kind of forearm, but one that more resembles a straight punch slightly off line, then hooks in with a little rotation. I execute a ridge hand the same way. It's pretty fast and doesn't cause any gap. Not sure if I get your point #3. When targeting the side of the head with a forearm, one's hand will end up behind the opponent's head. An elbow to the ribs by the other arm would be a good follow-up.

 

[Gweilo]

You identified one problem yourself. You're holding back on some strikes, which means the results are skewed towards the strikes you favor.

Although it pains me, I agree with you

 

[Dirty Dog]

Although it pains me, I agree with you

I'm so sorry to have caused you pain.