Censorship, Moderation and MartialTalk

[Cthulhu]

:rofl:

 

[Kirk]

You claim to be so scholastic and learned. Don't tell me you don't
see where you said it is none of my business how things are run.
Or that you don't know the purpose behind this thread. Which
one is it?

 

[Cthulhu]

Originally posted by Rob_Broad
Back the FiretrUCK up. The idea that a forum where members contribute, some on a daily basis, and you decide what is fine and fair for some and not others is just wrong. Saying it is none of anyone's business unless you decide to share said information just rubs me the wrong way.

Whoops. Very sorry. I wasn't quite clear. What I meant was that now that he is no longer a moderator, the specifics of what we discuss are no longer his business unless it directly concerns him.

Other than that, yes, the boardmembers have every right to voice concerns over how the moderation is done.

Very sorry. Inventory tonight. I am bushed.

Cthulhu

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Rob_Broad
Arnisador with his hardon wanting Gou everyday

What can I say? The ladies love me.
:ladysman:

 

[Kirk]

Now I know why Kaith wasn't aware of my PM's to you, politely
asking why you locked/warned in a thread. Ya simply lied to him.
It makes sense now.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Kirk
I saw the phrases "eating *****" and "Blow Jobs" used on the
forum, that went without warning, until I was given a warning
for saying "moisterizing her tatas", and complained about
inconsistancy. Then and only then were these words addressed.

Kirk, I believe that you believe that if I had seen those phrases I'd have edited them out at the very least. I wasn't reading that thread. We try our best to cover this board but we can't read every post. That's why we rely on reports. When those phrases were pointed out to me, I edited them out. (Deleting posts is hard for reasons relating to how the software is set up. Editing them is much easier. I'd have simply deleted them if it wasn't more difficult to do so.) Do you really believe that I'd have let those go? Me?

The warning to you was on chat and chat isn't the same as the board. I won't discuss that matter further in public unless you ask that I do so--otherwise, we respect your privacy.

Remember, it was the thread where there were jokes made at
the expense of a VERY hairyman, who existed in the 19th century.
You guys felt that jokes at this dead man's expense were just too
terrible and horrific, and his feelings MUST be spared! I believe
"this discussion is over" was the final comment there.

Sometimes, the discussion simply must end and we must move on. The Shaolin-Do? thread you mentioned was pruned--some posts were deleted or edited--and there were complaints (see here). You can imagine my shock at learning that we couldn't please all of the people all of the time, and yet, in our opinion it had passed beyond a couple of jokes to a thread that principally made fun of a disabled person based on their disability. Since the person is long sicne deceased, we allowed a little leeway--but the dog jokes were just too much. It isn't that he could be offended, Kirk. It's because--as you say about the posts involving references to fellatio--tehre's a "broken windows" effect wherein people see that sort of thing and think it's OK here.

You're arguing against yourself, Kirk. If the presence of the vulgar posts made you think that sort of thing was OK and you were upset to find that they weren't removed, how can you complain about us removing these posts to keep people from thinking that that's OK?

Here's yet another suggestion ... why not quote the rule violation
in the locked thread, or when the warning is posted? That would
create more consistancy would it not?

We discuss these things amongst outrselves to create consitency. Often the rule is simply "not in the spirit of MartialTalk"; in other cases citing the rule might seem more accusative than we intend. Still, this is worth considering. It may be helpful to be more explicit about why we lock a given thread.

My comment that the board can and HAS been used to insight, or take pot shots at someone DOES exist, and SHOULD BE addressed. Yet that post went unanswered. Note, it was DIRECTED RIGHT AT A MOD. Yet, went unanswered.

The mods. promise you a number of things, but an answer to every posted query isn't one of them. You'll have better luck if you PM an admin. (Kaith Rustaz, Cthulhu, or me).

We don't want people taking potshots on the board. Honestly, some are too subtle for us to see. The thread that started this mentioned a dig based on suggesting someone was or wasn't a brown belt--I can't pick up on that. We deal with complaints as best we can.

This board is administered by three volunteers and moderated by an additional two (nightingale8472 and tshadowchaser). All of us have other commitments. None of us are lawyers. Only Kaith has any other experience moderating a board and that's a small one. We do the best we can.

I really don't mind constructive criticism. In fact, I appreciate it. There's no reason to do this other than to make this a nice place for the members. I'm not getting money, fame, or power. But the assumption that we are doing poorly for any reason other than inexperience or inadequate policies really offends me, because this takes a lot of time that most people would be unwilling to commit. How many threads do you see me in, in how many fora? How often do you see me digging up an old thread to point people along the right path? Beyond that, there are internal discussions amongst the mods. on our closed forum, on chat, and by phone. We often talk through things that we decide not to do as we don't think they're quite right. I spent quite some time crafting an internal document for procedures for mods. the other night. It takes a ton of time--right now, there are things I'd rather be doing than having this argument (e.g., something positive for the board, like trying to drum up some action in the Fencing forum, or looking into whether there are enough boxing posts across the board to justify a forum for it). It's a lot of work. By all measn let me know when I could be doing better--but please don't attribute failings to anything other than me failing to do as well as I'd like to be doing. We don't always make the right decisions, but given that this place loses money and costs a lot of time, don't you think that we're trying to do so?

"Thread locked" --Martial Talk Commies

Well, this is just childish.

I say again, I'm writing for myself, not on behalf of MartialTalk.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Kirk
That is a bald faced lie!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No, it's correct. I didn't know about the posts until you pointed them out to me. Other mods. may or may not have. (I include all admins. as mods.) There is usually a delay between us finding out about something--by report or by us noticing it--and acting on it as we try to discuss our actions to reach consensus. Some of our actions may not be visible to the board members. Not uncommonly, our actions are staggered--we agree on one aspect of handling things but continue to discuss another aspect of it.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by arnisador
No, it's correct. I didn't know about the posts until you pointed them out to me. Other mods. may or may not have. (I include all admins. as mods.) There is usually a delay between us finding out about something--by report or by us noticing it--and acting on it as we try to discuss our actions to reach consensus. Some of our actions may not be visible to the board members. Not uncommonly, our actions are staggered--we agree on one aspect of handling things but continue to discuss another aspect of it.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

Cthulhu was saying that you did in fact know about the thread
BEFORE I pointed it out to you. You admit that, then say that
my calling him on that lie wasn't true? ALERT inconsistency here!

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Rob_Broad
This forum has a fair size of steady posters who love to contribute but I have seen people singled out the in louge because they rubbed one of the guys the wrong way.

One hopes this isn't the case, but we're only human. But that's why we have the policy of discussing things and coming to a consensus--so that one mod. who is very offended by a certain memebr's behaviour is counterbalanced by the rest of the mod. team. That's how the system works! I'm sure you saw many discussions of whether soemone should be banned/suspended--but how many people actually were? Many fewer. I think it's a good sytem--we didscuss it and reach consensus. Every mod. has at some point felt distressed that the other mods. didn't agree that a certain penalty was warranted, but we go on. What system would you suggest in its place? One person makes the decision?

Being 'singled out' in the lounge as you put it (this is a hidden forum where mods. discuss matters) means we're discussing what to do about a particular matter. Isn't this a good thing? Again, what would you suggest we do instead?

I also remember reading how in the beginning some of the moderation team didn't want this to be as open a forum as it is. I remeber reading not really wanting the kenpo peopel here or was it all other martial arts other than modern arnis.

To the first point, yes, there were differences of opinion--this is desirable on a team, and leads to a middle-of-the-road consensus. As to the latter, I've heard it before and it's bizarre nonsense. Possibly the "all other martial arts other than modern arnis" was a joke you misconstrued since Kaith, Renegade, and myself all practice Modern Arnis. Does what you suggest here even make any sense though? It would have been easy enough to make a Modern Arnis only board--Kaith didn't want that.

I really like what Bob has started I just think he needs a little more evenhandedness from the rest of his administrators.

Not to take anything away from Kaith, but I think you might be surprised by how many things you attribute to his doing were suggested/discussed/rounded-out by the rest of his team. He does a heck of a lot, but not entirely on his own.

(Again, speaking only for myself here.)

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Kirk
Now I know why Kaith wasn't aware of my PM's to you, politely
asking why you locked/warned in a thread. Ya simply lied to him.

To whom is this addressed?

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Kirk
Cthulhu was saying that you did in fact know about the thread
BEFORE I pointed it out to you. You admit that

I didn't know about the posts containing the inappropriate language. I was aware of the thread but was no longer reading it by that time. Had I been reading it and saw that language I would have at least raised the matter with the other mods. and in all likelihood I would have simply edited out the language as I felt it was a clear-cut violation of our rules.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Kirk,
Is this the thread?
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5453&highlight=shaolin

If so, it is in the MartialTalk Support Forum.


Concerning comments that were made and never replied to...
Were they made in the 'Support' forum? Or buried in another thread? Even if I have replied to a particular thread is no guarentee that I will get back to it in a timely manner!

I answer 95% of my email. If you do not get a reply, resend it and ask for confirmation.


Kirk PM and I have been going back and forth in PMs. I don't normally do this...but..I want to address this publicly.

He stated:

that there are no rules governing
the slamming of others in a signature, or title, or avatar. And we
BOTH know .. that it can get to people .. otherwise you and I
wouldn't be PMing each other right now, would we?

From the posted rules:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=314 Link is available on the main page, and in my signature.

Avatar Policy:
1- No blatant advertising. Organization Logos are ok.
2- No Nudity
3- No provocative (ie suggestive) images
4- No insulting, demeaning, or insensitive images.
5- No profanity
6- Must be under 10kb in file size.

Signatures (note snipping)
· Signatures are subject to all other content restrictions.
· Signatures must be setup in your profile and not manually added to your messages.
· All signatures must be appropriate for this Forum and are subject to review by the MartialTalk Moderation Team.

We dont have a rule directly pertaining to titles, however:
Complaint Policy:
If you have an issue with a forum member, please either e-mail or PM a moderator so that we may take care of the problem.

You HAVE ignore me on the forum itself. Arnisador and Cthulu have ignored PM's ... and a decent number of them.

I can not answer for the other staff... I have not deliberately ignored anyone, no matter how much of a pain in the *** I've thought them. I get an average of 100 emails PER day. This board gets an average of 350+ messages PER day. I'm also active on 3 other forums, and running a business 70+ hours a week. If I do not answer an email or PM, PLEASE! send it again and ask for a responce. I'm swamped, and things get pushed back due to other fires.

If you have a problem with -ANY- member of this boards staff, then contact me. I'm not canning someone just because you dont like em, but if there is a legitimate problem, I will address it.

EVERY attempt I've made for suggestion has gotten "yeah, I might work on that" That is NOT discussing them! Hell, I've even offered to write utilities to help you! A large part of the heated discussions that I've gotten into when I was a mod was because I cared so ******g much about this board!

I've got projects for this board going back to last June. See the above for the detailed explaination.

The perfect example is the RUDE RUDE RUDE RUDE "warning" I got from Arnisador in the chat channel. NO FURTHER DISCUSSION OF THE RULES HAVE HAPPENED YET OTHER ARE ALLOWED TO DISCUSS FAR FAR FAR FAR WORSE THAN ANY COMMENT I EVER MADE IN THERE!!!!

Now I ask you .. is THAT discussing anything???

This issue was addressed internally. We are still 'feeling' out the Chat stuff, and will be refining things greatly very shortly.


I've been many things in my life. I'ev been a Satanist, an Athiest, a Christian, A Pagan, A Democrat and a Liberal....I've never been a censor, or a Communist, and I take that shot personally.


Have we had issues with some members that crossed the line between 'personal' and 'professional'? Yes. And, if you will remember, I have gone to bat for many of those folks, several of them who were telling me to 'piss off'. THAT! problem is being addressed internally, and all dealings by this forums staff in the future will be professional.

Regarding Arnisador and Gou: I believe they have worked their differences out, mostly. I count both of them as my friend.


Regarding "I remeber reading not really wanting the kenpo peopel here or was it all other martial arts other than modern arnis."

I want to clear the air on this right now.
Without the input of the Kenpo folks, MT would be half the board it is today. We are the largest Kenpo discussion board that I can find online, and that includes KenpoNet. My GF holds a blackbelt in Kenpo, I've got over a year in it myself, and my instructor Tim Hartman, has about 5 years Kenpo experience. We brought in 2 Kenpoists as mods before, and have brought in another Kenpoist now. Regardless of some previous issues, this forum in no way shape or form discriminates against Kenpoists..Bluntly put, give me another 1000 active kenpoists here, and I'll be doing cartwheels. (Those who've seen me spar will understand)


Have we made mistakes? Yes. But you have to give us time and -room- to make the changes. The way things go, we are damned no matter what we do.

And...NOONE! is going to get so much as a 'boo' based on anything said in -THIS- thread.

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by arnisador
Kirk, I believe that you believe that if I had seen those phrases I'd have edited them out at the very least. I wasn't reading that thread. We try our best to cover this board but we can't read every post. That's why we rely on reports. When those phrases were pointed out to me, I edited them out. (Deleting posts is hard for reasons relating to how the software is set up. Editing them is much easier. I'd have simply deleted them if it wasn't more difficult to do so.) Do you really believe that I'd have let those go? Me?

That was exactly my point. You're stating exactly the point I was
trying to make.

Originally posted by arnisador
The warning to you was on chat and chat isn't the same as the board. I won't discuss that matter further in public unless you ask that I do so--otherwise, we respect your privacy.

Yes, please do. Seeing how nothing has been said since, and
MUCH MUCH worse comments have been made in there, OFTEN.

Originally posted by arnisador
Sometimes, the discussion simply must end and we must move on. The Shaolin-Do? thread you mentioned was pruned--some posts were deleted or edited--and there were complaints (see here). You can imagine my shock at learning that we couldn't please all of the people all of the time, and yet, in our opinion it had passed beyond a couple of jokes to a thread that principally made fun of a disabled person based on their disability. Since the person is long sicne deceased, we allowed a little leeway--but the dog jokes were just too much. It isn't that he could be offended, Kirk. It's because--as you say about the posts involving references to fellatio--tehre's a "broken windows" effect wherein people see that sort of thing and think it's OK here.

MANY posts were deleted, and questions, and eventually PM's
in that thread went unanswered. It wasn't the Shaolin-Do thread
I can't find the actual one now. It started with a pic of him, I
think. I may be wrong though, but I do remember me asking why
they were deleted, and then the thread being locked, because of
that. There was no "offending" posts remaining after you deleted
them all, I disagreed with your doing it, and immediately, you locked the thread. That's why the next thread existed.

Originally posted by arnisador
You're arguing against yourself, Kirk. If the presence of the vulgar posts made you think that sort of thing was OK and you were upset to find that they weren't removed, how can you complain about us removing these posts to keep people from thinking that that's OK?

I don't see where I'm saying that I'm complaining about the posts
being edited. I'm saying that you jumped all over me in the chat
room, when there was no set rules. And if they're supposed to
match the forum rules, then the said posts should've been
pounced on just as quickly. I wish I could find the thread now,
because I'm PRETTY SURE that a post was made by a mod
after said posts were made.

Originally posted by arnisador
We discuss these things amongst outrselves to create consitency. Often the rule is simply "not in the spirit of MartialTalk"; in other cases citing the rule might seem more accusative than we intend. Still, this is worth considering. It may be helpful to be more explicit about why we lock a given thread.

Well then why not post "not in the spirit of martialtalk" ?

Originally posted by arnisador
The mods. promise you a number of things, but an answer to every posted query isn't one of them. You'll have better luck if you PM an admin. (Kaith Rustaz, Cthulhu, or me).

Why not? Ya had time to comment, and lock a thread, can't you
take time to comment one more time? I've seen your "please
keep the convo polite" comment, and someone saying "You're
right, sorry" and you comment on THAT! So why not the ones
where one member is insulting another? And I've had LITTLE
luck with PM's other than the ones going to Kaith. We're all
agreed that he works long and hard here, so why not take up
some of the slack and answer my PMs?

Originally posted by arnisador
We don't want people taking potshots on the board. Honestly, some are too subtle for us to see. The thread that started this mentioned a dig based on suggesting someone was or wasn't a brown belt--I can't pick up on that. We deal with complaints as best we can.

I can understand that, but ya can't say that you weren't made
aware of it in that thread. BOOM a comment basically
saying "take it outside" came in from a mod, yet another sentence
of "we weren't aware this was going on, and it IS against the
rules" wasn't warranted????

Originally posted by arnisador
We don't always make the right decisions, but given that this place loses money and costs a lot of time, don't you think that we're trying to do so?

I don't need a lecture on how the board is run. But the reasoning
behind this is that question go unanswered, and apparently it's
"None of my business". The pot shots seem to be allowed, unless
it's against someone you like. I've complained about pot shots
against me, via PM to you guys, and they have gone unanswered.

Originally posted by arnisador
Well, this is just childish.

You're damned right it is! But would this thread exist without
such a POT SHOT being taken? I think not.
It totally proves my point. They shouldn't be allowed here. They
can, and do hurt people.

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
Regarding Arnisador and Gou: I believe they have worked their differences out, mostly.

I just wish he'd just stop pawing at me like I'm an object. I have feelings you know. I'm not just an object for his lust. I have feelings!

What's a guy got to do to get a hug around here?!

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by arnisador
To whom is this addressed?

Although I say that you have not replied to a few of my PM's
that was addressed to Cthulhu. You, as much as I've disagreed
with things you've said or done .. have never lied to me at least.

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
Kirk,
Is this the thread?
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5453&highlight=shaolin

That thread is a result of the thread I speak of. I go into further
detail in my reply to arnisador, but that is only part of the story.

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
I answer 95% of my email. If you do not get a reply, resend it and ask for confirmation.

With YOU only one was unanswered, and I discussed it
with you shortly thereafter. I told you at that time about the
PMs by Cthulhu and Arnisador that went unanswered. None have
been ignored since, because I hadn't even bothered trying.

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
If you have a problem with -ANY- member of this boards staff, then contact me. I'm not canning someone just because you dont like em, but if there is a legitimate problem, I will address it.

I did. Your reply was that they said nothing to you about it, and
you weren't aware of the problem. The fact of the matter is, if
they would have answered them, then the extremity of trying to
getting some attention to the matter creating all of this wouldn't
have been necessary.

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
I've been many things in my life. I'ev been a Satanist, an Athiest, a Christian, A Pagan, A Democrat and a Liberal....I've never been a censor, or a Communist, and I take that shot personally.

And I sincerely apologize for having to do it, (as I stated in my PM
to you). Yours is the first to say "hey ... we'll take action in the
future if someone is taking pot shots".

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
Regarding Arnisador and Gou: I believe they have worked their differences out, mostly. I count both of them as my friend.

But the fact remains, he wanted him GONE.

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
But you have to give us time and -room- to make the
changes. The way things go, we are damned no matter what we
do.

I won't argue that point with you. But when someone uses this
board to use thier words to intentionally hurt someone else, then
it's something that's far more important than adding features or
something. Not that that's what you're doing. But since PM's
weren't addressed, I decided to address it in the open thread.
Then the thread was locked, and I got nothing. I resorted to
taking a measure in order to get attention to it. And I intend to
change it again, once the matter is settled.

I've PM's Cthulhu and Arnisador on the dog thread, my "war" with
satansbarber, and my problem with a signature that was a pot
shot at me. And those are just the ones that come to mind right
off the top of my head. There were others.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by GouRonin
I just wish he'd just stop pawing at me like I'm an object. I have feelings you know. I'm not just an object for his lust. I have feelings!

What's a guy got to do to get a hug around here?!

One Bear Hug for Gou!


As to the complaint issue being ignored. I have always had my complaints and issues answered.

As to concerns, have had, them and posted some and PM'd others. Some may have already been in the works, others were discussed.

I like to think that this thread will air some concerns, and then with time I hope some good will come of all of this .

:asian:

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
One Bear Hug for Gou!

Careful. I have pictures of you molesting my dog you know...

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by GouRonin
Careful. I have pictures of you molesting my dog you know...

I still think it was Sampson who was attacking me!
:rofl:

 

[GouRonin]

Lies!
All lies!










...can I highjack a thread or what?
:shrug: