CCW holder stops robber in Burger King

[KenpoTex]

It's the eternal debate! :deadhorse

Oh I know, I just thought I'd mention the other thread since we did this whole song and dance not too long ago...

 

[dnovice]

It pains me when anyone at all loses their lives. There's good in everyone, albeit less in some. But when one must act one should without holding back. In that case, one can't just pull out a gun the moment one sees another gun. There must be a high probability of imminent death (this can be ascertained from the body language and behaviour of the robber.) Bill Mattocks definitely raises some good points.

 

[dnovice]

I suspect most decadent societies died from that very thing. Their love of life became more like a fear of death and that fear paralyzed them.

For you see we all will die one day. The only real question is, will we live or just exist till that day we die?

And I assure you, a lion truely lives.

Or as Robert Heinlein said, "It may be better to be a live jackal than a dead lion, but it is better still to be a live lion. And usually easier".

Deaf

Valid point deaf. But that is one extreme. "with great power comes great responsibility." This is why we hold our police officers accountable (although in my opinion people take it too far sometimes.) The thing that separates us from lions or other animals is that we reason and calibrate our situation. So ideally, one must see if there is really an imminent danger other than a stealing money.

I wasn't there so i can't pass judgement on the shooter. He did what he considered was right. He didn't hit any innocents so it ended ok.

But for us in general we need to have a little restraint.

 

[KenpoTex]

It pains me when anyone at all loses their lives. There's good in everyone, albeit less in some. But when one must act one should without holding back. In that case, one can't just pull out a gun the moment one sees another gun. There must be a high probability of imminent death (this can be ascertained from the body language and behaviour of the robber.) Bill Mattocks definitely raises some good points.

You certainly can...

The fact that the robber is holding a weapon means that he is threatening the unlawful use of deadly force if his orders are not obeyed.

So ideally, one must see if there is really an imminent danger other than a stealing money.

But for us in general we need to have a little restraint.

Again...bad guy with gun=deadly threat. He is threatening us with deadly force, there is no reason to believe that he will not use it for any reason (or none at all).

But for us in general we need to have a little restraint.

Restraint in this scenario would be not performing a coup de grâce on him after he is on the ground and the weapon has fallen from his hand...dumping as many rounds into his face as it takes to put him in that condition does not indicate lack of restraint.

 

[sgtmac_46]

It pains me when anyone at all loses their lives. There's good in everyone, albeit less in some. But when one must act one should without holding back. In that case, one can't just pull out a gun the moment one sees another gun. There must be a high probability of imminent death (this can be ascertained from the body language and behaviour of the robber.) Bill Mattocks definitely raises some good points.

So......OTHER than pulling out a gun and pointing it at you, WHAT, per chance, BODY LANGUAGE, tells you that he's going to use it?

I think there are some folks around here who have NEVER had a gun pointed at them in anger......that have some PRETTY DARNED unrealistic ideas of what they would do/know in those situations.....REALITY trumps THEORY every time.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Valid point deaf. But that is one extreme. "with great power comes great responsibility." This is why we hold our police officers accountable (although in my opinion people take it too far sometimes.) The thing that separates us from lions or other animals is that we reason and calibrate our situation. So ideally, one must see if there is really an imminent danger other than a stealing money.

Having a gun pointed in your direction is about as IMMINENT AS IT GETS!

This other imaginary 'You'll know if his left eye twitches if he's serious' crap is exactly that...CRAP!

The difference between a man POINTING a gun at you and SHOOTING you isn't in some imaginary 'Body Language'.....it's in FRACTIONS of SECONDS!

According to the logic of some, you can't REALLY be 'sure' there is an 'imminent danger' until he starts shooting.....and standard some folks have tried to apply to police officers, but the ROE's for imminent danger for Police Officers is much simpler.....


1) There must be a weapon
2) There must be intent (illustrated by him pulling out the weapon)
3) There must be a delivery system (His weapon must be able to reach you)

If all three of these things are in play, you ARE IN IMMINENT DANGER, and hence, lethal force is justified.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Dnovice,
I can understand restraint if the attacker is not using lethal force nor threatening to use it. But, you have only split seconds to make that decision as to how much ‘restraint’ to use.
As Chief Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes said, "detached reflection cannot be demanded in the presence of an upraised knife."

Bill,
Macho posing? As I’ve posted before, I’ve already one held a burglar at gun point and chased down a purse snatcher (there were two of us doing the chasing).

Lion? I hope so. I hope as I grow older I actually get bolder (and that’s kind of hard as ‘there are old soldiers and bold soldiers but few old and bold soldiers’ so to speak.)

What I know I won't do is cower. I won't board up my house and be afraid to leave it for fear of being robbed (and in Texas there is lots I can do to fix their little red wagon if they try.)

No, here in Texas we don't have so much to worry about the 'officials' wagging their finger if we protect ourselves. Vigilantes? No.

Take the law into our own hands? The law GIVES US THAT RIGHT AT LEAST FOR SELF DEFENSE!

And yes, it is easier to be a Lion, cause you don't have to look over your shoulder all the time.

Deaf

 

[Andy Moynihan]

What I know I won't do is cower. I won't board up my house and be afraid to leave it for fear of being robbed (and in Texas there is lots I can do to fix their little red wagon if they try.)

No, here in Texas we don't have so much to worry about the 'officials' wagging their finger if we protect ourselves. Vigilantes? No.

Take the law into our own hands? The law GIVES US THAT RIGHT AT LEAST FOR SELF DEFENSE!


Deaf

I'm gonna like Texas .

 

[Bill Mattocks]

What I know I won't do is cower. I won't board up my house and be afraid to leave it for fear of being robbed (and in Texas there is lots I can do to fix their little red wagon if they try.)

What you imply, have implied, and continue to imply, is that anyone who does not instantly fill his hand and blast away at any and all threats is a coward and lives in fear. Either you rush out and confront all bad guys with guns blazing, or you must be a coward. Balderdash, sir. Bullpucky.

That, sir, is macho posing.

I don't cower, and I don't live in fear. I also don't puff out my chest and point out what a big, brave, he-man I am at every opportunity. I've gotten dust on my boots, and that's all anyone needs to know.

I grew up in Colorado. I've met plenty of Texans. They passed me on one-lane switchbacks on the way up into the high country, they shot farmer's cows thinking they were elk, and when they skied, they came down the slope in three parts - skis, hat, and Texan, going "Hep me, hep me."

Try to keep in mind that some of us actually know Texans and manage to still not be as overly impressed with ya'll as ya'll are with yourselves.

 

[KenpoTex]

Are you guys done?...seriously

 

[MJS]

What you imply, have implied, and continue to imply, is that anyone who does not instantly fill his hand and blast away at any and all threats is a coward and lives in fear. Either you rush out and confront all bad guys with guns blazing, or you must be a coward. Balderdash, sir. Bullpucky.

That, sir, is macho posing.

I don't cower, and I don't live in fear. I also don't puff out my chest and point out what a big, brave, he-man I am at every opportunity. I've gotten dust on my boots, and that's all anyone needs to know.

I grew up in Colorado. I've met plenty of Texans. They passed me on one-lane switchbacks on the way up into the high country, they shot farmer's cows thinking they were elk, and when they skied, they came down the slope in three parts - skis, hat, and Texan, going "Hep me, hep me."

Try to keep in mind that some of us actually know Texans and manage to still not be as overly impressed with ya'll as ya'll are with yourselves.

Here is my take on the differences.

Person A: They're confronted with a mugger at the ATM. The badguy has a knife. He asks the victim for $500, to which the victim complies. Badguy leaves, victim is left with a bad memory of the event and a loss of cash.

Person B: Same as A, but badguy tells victim to go with him behind the bank. Victim really starts fearing for his well being, so he then acts.

Person C: Same as A, but instead of complying, he relentlessly attacks the badguy, and gets the hell out of there, with his life and his cash.

I think the majority here, myself included, fall into the C category. As I said, if that is macho posting, I really don't care. I'm minding my own business, and some **** bag wants to rob me? **** him! Whatever happens to him, he brought on himself, as soon as he attempted to rob, mug, or whatever.

I mind my own business. I don't look for trouble, I stay out of bad areas, places such as bars/clubs which have the high potential for trouble, if I'm forced to go to a bad area, I take the necessary precautions, and so far, this has worked for me. I don't brag about my martial arts, training, and frankly, I really hate to talk about it to anyone for obvious reasons. But, I don't feel that when we're faced with a situation, that we should always turn the other cheek, and back off, especially if I know I did nothing wrong.

I think back to that day I was walking thru my condo complex with my dog, and a car with 2 guys passed by slowly. I exchanged glances with the passenger, and honestly thought that he may have been someone I knew, but didn't recognize right away. I kept walking but apparently my look pissed him off, so he gets out and asks me if I have a ****ing problem. I didn't cower, I didn't apologize, because I didn't do anything wrong...I was minding my own business. So I stood my ground, replied "No" to him, and continued to look at him. He then went on his way. However, if he had started walking towards me, I would not have ran away or begged for forgiveness.

 

[Deaf Smith]

What you imply, have implied, and continue to imply, is that anyone who does not instantly fill his hand and blast away at any and all threats is a coward and lives in fear. Either you rush out and confront all bad guys with guns blazing, or you must be a coward. Balderdash, sir. Bullpucky.

Imply?

If you have read alot of my post on what the laws of Texas are then you know this 'blasting away' is not true. Rush out? Again, I've pointed out you don't have to retreat in Texas, but I've also pointed out you cannot start an argument or provoke it.

And Bill, I've also pointed out bullets can go both ways. In fact, in this very thread, in the very first post I pointed that out. I also pointed out that one must weigh the consequences of what you do (like getting shot to pieces.)

What I do say, though, is if you are in fear of your life or the lives of others, and you are capable of action, and you decide to intervene, then do so. And it's a decision I would not do Monday morning quarterbacking on. It’s a decision I would applaud, wither you refrained and just became a good witness or if you took bold action to stop them.

I do say though, if you decide to be a lion, then you should become a very capable lion!

Deaf

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Imply?

Yes, imply.

It’s a decision I would applaud, wither you refrained and just became a good witness or if you took bold action to stop them.

No sir, you don't.

You say "...if he had started walking towards me, I would not have ran away or begged for forgiveness." You say things like that over and over. The implication (thus, my use of the term 'imply') is that if one doesn't take immediate and violent action, one is a coward (run away) or one lives in fear (beg for forgiveness).

You say you have no bad feelings towards those who do not act and think like you do, but you describe them as cowards and people who live in fear.

My statement stands. Your words put the truth in them.

 

[sgtmac_46]

You say "...if he had started walking towards me, I would not have ran away or begged for forgiveness." You say things like that over and over. The implication (thus, my use of the term 'imply') is that if one doesn't take immediate and violent action, one is a coward (run away) or one lives in fear (beg for forgiveness).

You say you have no bad feelings towards those who do not act and think like you do, but you describe them as cowards and people who live in fear.

My statement stands. Your words put the truth in them.

For my part, i'll put this way.......IF you have a fundamental moral and ethical commitment against violence, even in self-defense.......I don't agree with that, but I can respect it......and it takes tremendous courage to die for your beliefs. No coward in that respect.

IF, however, someone believes, not as the result of some moral and ethical view against violence, but because of an erroneous set of ideas, that not resisting violence is the best course of action to survive violence, that isn't cowardice either......it IS the wrong idea.

In fact.....now that I think about it, cowardice doesn't enter in to the equation at all.......I really wouldn't consider it particularly brave shooting someone who's armed while they are momentarily distracted, simply because I believe that is the best chance I have of continuing to breath air......in some ways it might even be more cowardly than the pacifist.......but if that's so, doggone it i'm a COWARD!

 

[MJS]

Yes, imply.



No sir, you don't.

You say "...if he had started walking towards me, I would not have ran away or begged for forgiveness." You say things like that over and over. The implication (thus, my use of the term 'imply') is that if one doesn't take immediate and violent action, one is a coward (run away) or one lives in fear (beg for forgiveness).

You say you have no bad feelings towards those who do not act and think like you do, but you describe them as cowards and people who live in fear.

My statement stands. Your words put the truth in them.

Umm...for clarification Bill, the bold part is what I said in my post. See, YOU Bill, are ASSUMING that I would have KO'd the guy. YOU are reading too much into things and twisting things to suit YOUR needs. Please stop!

Lets look again, at exactly what I said!

"I mind my own business. I don't look for trouble, I stay out of bad areas, places such as bars/clubs which have the high potential for trouble, if I'm forced to go to a bad area, I take the necessary precautions, and so far, this has worked for me. I don't brag about my martial arts, training, and frankly, I really hate to talk about it to anyone for obvious reasons. But, I don't feel that when we're faced with a situation, that we should always turn the other cheek, and back off, especially if I know I did nothing wrong.

I think back to that day I was walking thru my condo complex with my dog, and a car with 2 guys passed by slowly. I exchanged glances with the passenger, and honestly thought that he may have been someone I knew, but didn't recognize right away. I kept walking but apparently my look pissed him off, so he gets out and asks me if I have a ****ing problem. I didn't cower, I didn't apologize, because I didn't do anything wrong...I was minding my own business. So I stood my ground, replied "No" to him, and continued to look at him. He then went on his way. However, if he had started walking towards me, I would not have ran away or begged for forgiveness."

So show me Bill, where exactly I said I would KO the guy or hit the guy. Show me please. See, you won't see it, but again, if it doesnt match YOUR ideas, its wrong. IIRC, I called you on this in another thread. Its a bad habit YOU have by thinking that YOU have the market cornered on anything self defense wise. Sorry to burst your bubble Bill, but YOU don't!

I said I'd stand my ground. NOTHING says I have to apologize to this jerk. Afterall, he looked at me as well. I really did think that it was someone I knew, but didn't recognize at the moment, thus me continuing to look at him. He thought he could get a rise out of me, by acting all tough, but he didnt get what he intended. Of course, when he saw my dog, an 85lb German Shepherd mix, glaring back at him, Mr. Tough Guy probably had second thoughts. So badguy thinks, "Hmm....I'm acting like a dick, this guy who I thought I could scare is still standing there, and I really don't wanna get bit, soooo......."

Sorry Bill. I did NOTHING wrong. I was minding my own business, I replied back "NO' when he asked if I had the ****ing problem. But I was NOT required to say anything else, despite what YOU, Mr. Almighty, I have the market cornered on SD, may think. I owed him NO apology, and didn't feel I should have explained myself. Its a free country and I can look where I want. Was I supposed to walk with my head down?? Was I supposed to cower in fear and let this guy see that I'm afraid? He was a 20 something punk who gets off on intimidation, and I wasn't phased at all.

So in closing, I'll say it again...I'm not a tough guy despite what YOU think. I don't look for trouble despite what YOu think. I mind my own business, but if I do nothing wrong, and someone starts yelling, accusing me of something, whatever, and I know I did nothing wrong, I'm standing up for what I know is right.

Really Bill, I think that you need to read what you post and get off your high horse. You think that if someone disagrees with you, that they're wrong. Not the case. You throw around your LEO background to give credit to what YOU believe, to make it sound like YOU are the only one right and everyone else is wrong. Just because an opinion doesnt meet YOUR ideas, does NOT make it wrong!

 

[Deaf Smith]

Bill,

I guess you would have us do this:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5998930.ece

Fire kills child, 3, and parents as police prevent neighbours from trying to rescue them

Deaf

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Bill,

I guess you would have us do this:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5998930.ece

Fire kills child, 3, and parents as police prevent neighbours from trying to rescue them

Deaf

Well, first of all, I must raise my glass to the memory of those who perished.

Next, I must say that, no, I don't think this is what Bill's after. I think a text only medium has had a field day with getting our wires crossed over one difference of opinion that diverges only on one part of the subject, but is magnified by our choices of words without our inflection behind it or the opportunity to see each other's faces/ask for clarification that a face to face talk would allow.

That's all that started this, and I think it is sad that it hasn't been realized before it got to this point. I'm not pointing specific fingers, it's a general observation.

Now let's ALL of us go up to the bar and lemme get you something, round's on me.

 

[Marginal]

ABSOLUTELY! And if you do nothing you may die.......however, here's what really confuses me......at what point did we as a society decide that it's somehow BETTER if you die doing nothing than if you die doing something? That mindset confuses me to no end, but it seems endemic........somewhere we decided that INACTION is a virtue.

It comes down to risk vs reward. A guy robs a Burger King register, he's in and out and makes off with say, $120. BK's got insurance etc.

Getting yourself and possibly others shot over just that is relatively pointless. On top of that, the businesses actively fire employees who confront robbers. So doing nothing becomes perceived as the defacto response.

 

[Carol]

It comes down to risk vs reward. A guy robs a Burger King register, he's in and out and makes off with say, $120. BK's got insurance etc.

Getting yourself and possibly others shot over just that is relatively pointless. On top of that, the businesses actively fire employees who confront robbers. So doing nothing becomes perceived as the defacto response.

The defacto response is not without issue though.

Being covered with a muzzle by an armed assailant is never "relatively pointless". It is a specific threat of extreme violence. Perhaps the violence could result in death. Perhaps the violence could result in permanent disability and injuries that lead to a lifetime of pain and rehab.

Plus, BGs can (and will) harm the original victim, or others, even if they do get they want. Handing over the cash drawer should not belittle the violence of the event, nor should it be seen as a guarantee that the perps will suddenly play nice.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Ok Andy, maybe this is what Bill is talking about.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/04012009/news/regionalnews/subway_rapist_victims_shock_162317.htm

SUBWAY RAPIST VICTIM'S SHOCK
LOSES SUIT VS. 'NO HELP' CREW

"A conductor saw the rape from the window on his train, and a station agent in the booth witnessed a screaming woman being dragged down a staircase inside the desolate 21st Street station of the G line. But neither one left the safety of their assigned posts to help her. Instead, conductor Harmodio Cruz and agent John Koort called the command center to summon cops.

Justice Kevin Kerrigan ruled the two workers had taken "prompt and decisive action in obtaining police help," according to the decision handed down in Queens Supreme Court. The help came far too late for the victim, who was raped on the platform. "

------

Well they were 'good citizens' for calling the cops. But just how it was 'decisive' is beyond me.

Deaf