CCW holder stops robber in Burger King

[Deaf Smith]

More on the shooting here:

http://www.wsvn.com/news/articles/local/MI116328/

"Authorities said a man with a ski mask went into the store and a customer tried to stop him, which led to a shootout between the customer and the subject. "This individual was armed, he pulled out a gun. It was a Good Samaritan that was inside of the Burger King that has a concealed weapons permit. He confronted the robbery suspect, at which time shots were fired. The robbery suspect is confirmed dead," Miami Police Officer Jeff Giordano said.



Authorities transported the customer to Jackson Memorial Hospital with multiple bullet wounds. He is in stable condition.


Police said a possible second subject fled the scene in a black four-door sedan that may be a Toyota."

------
Thing is, he had a ski mask on. You don't know if he is a nut or robber. Only you have this scarry guy with a gun come in who has his face hidden.

The decision is up to you!

Deaf

 

[Wishbone]

When you go about armed, you pays your money and you take everybody's chances. The people at risk were not given the opportunity to decide if they wanted to be involved in a gun battle between a good guy and a bad guy.

True, but it's just part of the risks of life. When someone driving next to me on the highway pulling a trailer is staring at their phone texting away they're taking chances that affect me. People take chances that affect our lives in possibly tragic ways everyday. It's just the nature of the game. Only most of them aren't as stigmatized as shoot-outs. Although I daresay more people's lives are affected by road-side negligence than good guy vs bad guy gun fire.

Doesn't stop me from driving, riding bicycles near roads or walking/running near them either. Nor does the fear of being shot from a good guy or a bad guy. Either way, both are taking chances with my life, but at least the good guy has good intentions and won't go steal my wallet afterwards if I suffer a hit

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Well it's like old Bilbo Baggins used to say:

"Dreadfully dangerous business, going out your door".

 

[Deaf Smith]

Bit more info.

Press is reporting the GG had a 9mm and the BG had a .380.

So maybe they swapped lead back and forth cause nether was getting a good hit (but the GG finaly tagged him right.)

Deaf

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Yeah, I know, I know, it *is* true that shot placement matters most, but i'm still not particularly comfortable, if fight i must, doing so with a sidearm the caliber of which does not begin with "4", and not just because of bullet diameter.

Apart from its long standing performance as a man stopper regardless of bullet type, there's something else that recommends the old, but trusty, .45 ACP:

Bill brought up valid concerns concerning the risk of overpenetration into innocents.

One of the .45 ACP round's interesting characteristics is that it's somewhat larger diameter , slightly heavier bullet and comparatively slow speeds of 8-900fps make it inherently unlikely to overpenetrate even if no hollowpoint is used.

I don't know the particulars of the ammo used in the 9mm, but if it was 9mm ball, that round is well known for risk of overpenetration. Just a thought to consider.

 

[KenpoTex]

yay! another caliber debate (groan...)

If we're honest, there are probably very few incidents where using a different "service" caliber would have had any significant impact on the outcome of a shooting. The people that died would have probably died even if shot with a smaller caliber, and the people that lived probably would have lived even if shot with a larger caliber.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

All of them will work most of the time and all of them will fail some of the time.

What I meant to address was the overpenetration thing more than stopping power although that did creep in there.

I mean yeah, I've carried 9's before but they've always been stoked with +P JHPs.

 

[sgtmac_46]

When you go about armed, you pays your money and you take everybody's chances. The people at risk were not given the opportunity to decide if they wanted to be involved in a gun battle between a good guy and a bad guy.

And in doing nothing you take everybody's chances as well......at what point did we start teaching folks that they are not as responsible for inaction as much as they are action? Inaction IS an action, you have made a choice by doing nothing at all. The universe does not suddenly say 'Oooppss.....conscientious objector, we best leave him out of the consequences of this situation'.

This is exactly the kind of nightmare scenario that gun-grabbers fantasize about when they go on and on about CCW - a shooting gallery full of citizens trapped between a bad guy and a good guy who has decided to blaze it out with each other.

You mean a citizen having the ability to defend themselves against an armed attacker is a nightmare scenario? Hmmmmmmm......

That scenario did not materialize - which is a good thing. But was that due to skill, luck, or some other attribute of the encounter that we don't know about yet?

That's the funny thing about the real world......you don't generally know until well after the fact, if then.

I am a pro-gun person. I am in favor of armed citizens. I also fear that the overwhelming majority of my fellow citizens are booger-eatin' morons who don't know the first thing about gun safety or when they can or should engage in self-defense with a firearm.

That's the funny thing about freedom, isn't it......we accept the reality that some folks may make bad choices........of course freedom beats the alternative......which is a bunch of moron bureaucrats even DUMBER than the public deciding what you SHOULD do in every situation, which is 'baaaaaaaa' politely.

Did this man save the restaurant's patrons from certain execution? No, he did not. Some here want to characterize the average restaurant hold up as a prelude to guaranteed mass murder - to avoid witnesses. But this is clearly very rare. He *might* have saved the restaurant's patrons, or his actions may have endangered further. And the patrons did not get to make that choice, he made it for them.

That is an ASSumption you are making, that is unsupported by the facts.....you assume you know what the robber had in mind......and how exactly do you know that? Can you teach that amazing ability?

In reality armed robbers DO kill their victims quite often, they do it even without obvious provocation......or did some 'booger eating moron' at Lane Bryants pull out her piece and precipitate the execution of 5 innocent people?

 

[sgtmac_46]

I have used this news story before as what I consider to be an exemplar for the proper use of CCW and deadly force. I would ask the astute reader to compare and contrast.

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2007/07/marine_subway_robbery_070702/



He was armed. He did not jump up and draw his weapon and begin to blaze away the moment the men announced a holdup. He even turned over his wallet on demand (not in this story, but I've read may news accounts of it). When the robbers demanded that the customers go into the back room, he made the judgment that he and his fellow customers were about to be murdered, and he acted. He did not draw his weapon and demand that they surrender. He did not wave it about like a magic wand that cures all ills and terrifies all bad guys. He drew, aimed, and shot both men in the chest immediately.

Textbook.

People without an understanding of why and how these two situations were different should reconsider their decision to go about armed - they may have a gun, but they haven't a clue. Of the two, I'd prefer they keep their minds with them at all times.

There is no 'textbook' because all robbers do not follow the text book or the script.

If you think EVERY robber is going to give the 'everyone in the back' code word before opening fire, I believe you are operating under a set of dangerous preconceived notions.

These robbers didn't read your 'text book'.

A subway token clerk reporting for work at an isolated Manhattan station early yesterday was ambushed and shot dead by a gunman who seized the momentary advantage of an unlocked token booth and, with an accomplice, escaped with more than $11,000 in cash and tokens. http://www.nytimes.com/1991/07/09/nyregion/gunman-kills-token-clerk-in-harlem-subway-ambush.html

A robber jumped through a window into the cashier’s cage of a southwest Atlanta convenience store Sunday night and shot and killed the clerk, authorities said. http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/atlanta/stories/2009/03/23/fatal_west_end_robbery.html

Columbus police said Perez was shot behind the counter about 9 a.m. by an armed robber who entered the store at 3851 E. Livingston Ave. Perez was taken to Grant Medical Center and died there at 10:10 a.m.

Whatever interaction the robber had with Perez, it didn't last long. Weiner said the robber was in the store only about 15 seconds. Perez's killer remained at large last night. http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2009/03/25/ashoot.html?type=rss&cat=&sid=101

(So much for WAITING to see what happens.....15 seconds)

LAKE CITY, Fla. -- A 59-year-old store clerk was shot and killed Tuesday night during a robbery of a convenience store just of Interstate 10.Linda Raulerson was shot about 9 p.m. as she was closing the Joy America grocery store at the U.S. Highway 441 exit of I-10, according to the Columbia County Sheriff's Office.Sheriff Bill Gootee said surveillance video showed that the robber shot Raulerson after she emptied the cash drawer, handed over the money and stepped out of the way. http://www.news4jax.com/news/16963933/detail.html

I could go on like this all night.......but folks get the point.......you applaud the former marine in your example because you know the outcome......and because the outcome was good, you assume that his actions were 'textbook'........that 'textbook' being that anyone armed should wait for the 'everybody in the back' cue from the robbers that they are going to begin shooting before they act.......as I illustrated, though, the one GLARING problem with your 'theory' is that many robbers don't seem to abide by the rules.

But the REALITY is that the former marine in your example IS to be commended......not because he waited for the UNIVERSAL CLUE of execution to pull his gun and go to work.......but because he appraised his particular UNIQUE situation and decided it was time to go, not because he read the text book.......but because he was writing it as he went along.

 

[sgtmac_46]

yep at least if you are armed you have the option of engaging the enemy with a weapon yourself. no one says you have to do so, but it gives you the choice and the control of your life in a situation like that. would I have drawn my weapon and engaged the robber? dont know. but if you fight, armed or unarmed please REMEMBER THIS:

IF YOU FIGHT YOU MAY DIE! that is true weather there are weapons involved or not.

ABSOLUTELY! And if you do nothing you may die.......however, here's what really confuses me......at what point did we as a society decide that it's somehow BETTER if you die doing nothing than if you die doing something? That mindset confuses me to no end, but it seems endemic........somewhere we decided that INACTION is a virtue.

Action and inaction are choices that we make based on the unique situation you are in........one time action will save you, and inaction will get you killed, then in another it may be totally the opposite. Some folks, however, have the erroneous idea that inaction is somehow superior.......that even if you DO get killed, it's better to have not been doing anything about it.

 

[sgtmac_46]

More on the shooting here:

http://www.wsvn.com/news/articles/local/MI116328/

"Authorities said a man with a ski mask went into the store and a customer tried to stop him, which led to a shootout between the customer and the subject. "This individual was armed, he pulled out a gun. It was a Good Samaritan that was inside of the Burger King that has a concealed weapons permit. He confronted the robbery suspect, at which time shots were fired. The robbery suspect is confirmed dead," Miami Police Officer Jeff Giordano said.



Authorities transported the customer to Jackson Memorial Hospital with multiple bullet wounds. He is in stable condition.


Police said a possible second subject fled the scene in a black four-door sedan that may be a Toyota."

------
Thing is, he had a ski mask on. You don't know if he is a nut or robber. Only you have this scarry guy with a gun come in who has his face hidden.

The decision is up to you!

Deaf

Well........he COULD have been a nice robber, we don't know.

 

[Guardian]

I agree to do something is better then nothing, it's the something that matters. Bill, you brought up some good points and so have the others.

Just because someone has a CCP does not mean they have the training that goes along with it (tactical training) that is, they passed a test, took their weapon and fired a few times at a stationary target a few yards away. That sure doesn't give me them training or even common sense in most cases.

I'll give him credit, he did something and I hope he is ok and recovers quickly.

 

[Deaf Smith]

ABSOLUTELY! And if you do nothing you may die.......however, here's what really confuses me......at what point did we as a society decide that it's somehow BETTER if you die doing nothing than if you die doing something? That mindset confuses me to no end, but it seems endemic........somewhere we decided that INACTION is a virtue.

I suspect most decadent societies died from that very thing. Their love of life became more like a fear of death and that fear paralyzed them.

For you see we all will die one day. The only real question is, will we live or just exist till that day we die?

And I assure you, a lion truely lives.

Or as Robert Heinlein said, "It may be better to be a live jackal than a dead lion, but it is better still to be a live lion. And usually easier".

Deaf

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I suspect most decadent societies died from that very thing. Their love of life became more like a fear of death and that fear paralyzed them.

For you see we all will die one day. The only real question is, will we live or just exist till that day we die?

And I assure you, a lion truely lives.

Or as Robert Heinlein said, "It may be better to be a live jackal than a dead lion, but it is better still to be a live lion. And usually easier".

Deaf

Macho posing. The eternal chest thump of the internet tough guy.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Macho posing. The eternal chest thump of the internet tough guy.

As opposed to the internet pseudo-adult, who assumes the high ground by insinuating that anyone he disagrees with is just trying to be a 'macho tough guy'........when in reality it's you who's engaging in the kind of ad hominen retort that signals a lost argument.......because deaf wasn't referring to you or anyone in particular in his post, he was referring to an idea.......where as you decided in your retort to make it an attack on Deaf, and aspersion to his character by dismissing him as an 'Macho posing, internet tough guy'.......the high ground, therefore DOES NOT belong to you.



See, we can all just ridicule each other, call each other 'macho tough guys' and 'ignorant twits' and whatever nice little epithets we decide to come up with......but when it comes to attacking each other personally, that just means WE'VE LOST!

 

[sgtmac_46]

I agree to do something is better then nothing, it's the something that matters. Bill, you brought up some good points and so have the others.

Just because someone has a CCP does not mean they have the training that goes along with it (tactical training) that is, they passed a test, took their weapon and fired a few times at a stationary target a few yards away. That sure doesn't give me them training or even common sense in most cases.

I'll give him credit, he did something and I hope he is ok and recovers quickly.

An excellent post! And that's just it.....we can't say universally 'THIS is what you should ALWAYS do' because no two robbers, and hence no two robberies, turn out the same.

We do know that robbers often just want the money......but we also know that a NOT insignificant minority of the time they also shoot their victims, without provocation.

Keeping that in mind, every person must make that decision for themselves......now Bill, whether he'll say it outright or not, has insinuated that he believes that you should assume that the robber is there to just get the money.....UNLESS he gives an obvious telegraph letter of intent that he's going to shoot you before he shoots you (Like saying 'I'm about to shoot you!')

For my part, my disagreement with Bill is that robbers in the REALLY real world are that remotely obvious in their intent......each situation must be judged under it's own merits BY the people who are currently experiencing them......some folks want a BUREAUCRAT to decide what is the right thing to do in such situations (i.e. NOTHING!) and want that reinforced by making sure everyone is no legally armed. Personally, not trusting in the intellectual power of a bureaucrat not to drown in a rainstorm, I think that decision is BETTER made by the folks thrust in to it.........to shoot or not to shoot, based on the individual situation at hand.

Obviously if you're going to take on the responsibility of being armed, you should ensure that you have a good fundamental foundation of training.......i've never been the victim of a robbery, never had someone thrust a gun in to my face, and i'm betting Bill hasn't been the victim of one either. I think saying what someone SHOULD DEFINITELY do under those circumstances is a bit arrogant......I prefer that folks be given the OPTION and allow them to decide what to do when confronted by that extraordinary circumstance.......to cooperate, to flee, to resist.

 

[KenpoTex]

The question of whether to act or not, or to assume the BG is there just for the money, etc. was beaten to death in this thread a while back...

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=71830

 

[MJS]

Macho posing. The eternal chest thump of the internet tough guy.

So, is anyone who feels that they don't wish to bow down to the bad guys, an internet tough guy?

For the record, I'm not a tough guy. Personally, as I've said in another thread of a similar nature, I don't like to fight, and I don't look for trouble. However, if trouble comes to me, I'm going to stand up for myself. However, I need to deal with it, I'm going to.....verbally or physically. I mind my own business. I don't feel that I should cowtow to some scumbag.

If that makes me sound like a macho, 'net tough guy....so be it.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Macho posing. The eternal chest thump of the internet tough guy.

Mmm. Bad form, old chap. You're a better man than this.

 

[sgtmac_46]

The question of whether to act or not, or to assume the BG is there just for the money, etc. was beaten to death in this thread a while back...

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=71830

It's the eternal debate! :deadhorse