CCW holder stops robber in Burger King

[Deaf Smith]

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/breaking-news/story/965735.html

1 dead, one injured in Miami Burger King shooting

By ROBERT SAMUELS AND JENNIFER LEBOVICH

[email protected]

One man was killed and another seriously wounded in a shootout inside a Miami Burger King on Tuesday, officials said.
Police said a man wearing a ski mask walked into the store at Biscayne Boulevard and 54th Street and demanded money from a clerk.
A customer, who has a concealed weapons permit, pulled a gun, said Officer Jeff Giordano, a Miami police spokesman.
The customer and robber exchanged fire.
The robber was shot dead at the scene.
The customer, who had several gunshot wounds, was taken to Ryder Trauma Center in serious but stable condition, said Lt. Ignatius Carroll, a Miami Fire Rescue spokesman.
At about 4 p.m., officials got several 911 calls reporting people shot inside the Burger King.

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I hope the brave man lives. What he did took courage. But, I want everyone here to see that bullets go both ways.

I carry a gun very very often, and I know I could get sucked into something like this.

Sometimes the good guys get hurt to and it's something to consider when you carry a weapon.

Deaf

 

[Omar B]

Best of luck to him.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Sorry to hear of his injury, glad to see there are still those who understand that not living in fear of scumbags is WORTh the risk.( After all, "No witnesses" is the way the new strain of scumbag rolls nowadays)

Here's to a speedy recovery and no charges filed. Well Done, Sir.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Sorry to hear of his injury, glad to see there are still those who understand that not living in fear of scumbags is WORTh the risk.( After all, "No witnesses" is the way the new strain of scumbag rolls nowadays)

Here's to a speedy recovery and no charges filed. Well Done, Sir.

I'm glad the bad guy is dead. I'm glad the customer is going to live. And since I don't know what all the circumstances were, I hope that the shooting was justified.

It may well be 'worth the risk' to put one's own life on the line - if that's your choice. And what would you be saying if he had missed and shot another customer? What would you be saying if you were that customer he shot?

As to the age of 'no witnesses', you have some stats on that? Every thug that robs a fast food restaurant kills all the customers?

I'm interested in finding out more about this situation.

 

[KenpoTex]

And since I don't know what all the circumstances were, I hope that the shooting was justified.

The statement issued by the police said that a CCW holder killed a man who was committing armed robbery...sounds justified to me. Considering that this happened in Fla. I doubt the guy is going to have any legal problems.

I too am curious as to the particulars of the event. I'm wondering if he tried to order the BG to drop his gun...

Anyway, I hope he pulls through...sounds like he did the city of Miami a favor.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

The statement issued by the police said that a CCW holder killed a man who was committing armed robbery...sounds justified to me. Considering that this happened in Fla. I doubt the guy is going to have any legal problems.

I too am curious as to the particulars of the event. I'm wondering if he tried to order the BG to drop his gun...

Anyway, I hope he pulls through...sounds like he did the city of Miami a favor.

I'm sure we'll hear more on the story, and yes, I tend to doubt he will be charged with any crime. But I would like to hear more about the circumstances.

I shudder to think what the outcome would be if the man's bullet had overpenetrated and shot someone else - or just gone wild, ricocheted, etc and injured someone else. Still justified? Tragic but acceptable? Not sure how the police, public, etc, would consider it.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

.

It may well be 'worth the risk' to put one's own life on the line - if that's your choice.

Exactly. It is true that no one can say what they'd do till they're in it, but I'm glad every time someone does stand up.

And what would you be saying if he had missed and shot another customer?

Probably ***** and moan about how he'd forgotten Rule Number Four and how his amateur mistake made the rest of us look bad.

What would you be saying if you were that customer he shot?

.

Assuming I've lived?

"Five things, buddy. 1) Go back to school on your 4 rules, especially number 4. 2) Go back to the range and get your grip and sights issues sorted till you learn how to hit center mass.3) Get yourself a lasergrip so you can still do it under adrenaline stress 4) Ditch whatever you were using and get yourself a .45 4) Pray I never see you again".

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

I am not suprised it is Biscayne Blvd this type of stuff happens every day there.

 

[sgtmac_46]

I'm sure we'll hear more on the story, and yes, I tend to doubt he will be charged with any crime. But I would like to hear more about the circumstances.

I shudder to think what the outcome would be if the man's bullet had overpenetrated and shot someone else - or just gone wild, ricocheted, etc and injured someone else. Still justified? Tragic but acceptable? Not sure how the police, public, etc, would consider it.

The 'what if game' is a fun one to play.....such as

What if he had not pulled out his gun and the robber shot one of the customers or employees in the head?

What if no one else had been armed, and he herded everyone else in the back and executed them, ala the Lane Bryant massacre/robbery? http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,332606,00.html

At the end of the day, you pays your money and you takes your chances......but being ARMED at least puts your destiny in your own hands.......rather than being entirely a passive observer of your own fate, and entirely reliant upon an armed criminals good graces.......and SOMETIMES having the ability to choose is the best you can ask for out of the situation.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

At the end of the day, you pays your money and you takes your chances......but being ARMED at least puts your destiny in your own hands.......rather than being entirely a passive observer of your own fate, and entirely reliant upon an armed criminals good graces.......and SOMETIMES having the ability to choose is the best you can ask for out of the situation.

When you go about armed, you pays your money and you take everybody's chances. The people at risk were not given the opportunity to decide if they wanted to be involved in a gun battle between a good guy and a bad guy.

This is exactly the kind of nightmare scenario that gun-grabbers fantasize about when they go on and on about CCW - a shooting gallery full of citizens trapped between a bad guy and a good guy who has decided to blaze it out with each other.

That scenario did not materialize - which is a good thing. But was that due to skill, luck, or some other attribute of the encounter that we don't know about yet?

I am a pro-gun person. I am in favor of armed citizens. I also fear that the overwhelming majority of my fellow citizens are booger-eatin' morons who don't know the first thing about gun safety or when they can or should engage in self-defense with a firearm.

Did this man save the restaurant's patrons from certain execution? No, he did not. Some here want to characterize the average restaurant hold up as a prelude to guaranteed mass murder - to avoid witnesses. But this is clearly very rare. He *might* have saved the restaurant's patrons, or his actions may have endangered further. And the patrons did not get to make that choice, he made it for them.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

No.

The scumbag took EVERYONE's "choice" to be uninvolved away when he committed to violence in the first place.

You asked me earlier if I had statistics to back up the no witnesses claim.
I have been looking, haven't been ignoring you, but there are several instances posted right here on MT where it happened, and only ONCE is enough to ensure that *I* will ALWAYS assume this.

Statistics matter for nothing when you are the 1%.

You then posted below that "Clearly this is very rare", but again, I could ask the same question of sources from you, but I think at this point it wouldn't much matter since we've both made our choices where we stand anyway.

I'm not going to wait to find out what the scumbag's intentions are.

The longer you allow them to stay in control the worse your chances get.


".......For if they once may win the bridge, what hope to save the town?"

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

On the news they kept saying he had a permit. I think everyone is suprised that someone in Biscayne actually has a gun permit I know I was.

It is a sad thing at least here in Miami that robberies are happening more frequent in fast food settings. There was one report were shots were fired because the driver didn't get BBQ sauce.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I have used this news story before as what I consider to be an exemplar for the proper use of CCW and deadly force. I would ask the astute reader to compare and contrast.

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2007/07/marine_subway_robbery_070702/

A 71-year-old former “Marine One” helicopter pilot broke up an armed robbery at a Plantation, Fla., Subway restaurant last week, killing one alleged robber and hospitalizing another.
While John Lovell was finishing up his sandwich around 11:15 p.m. last Wednesday, two masked men armed with guns barged into the restaurant, according to a statement from the Plantation police. After taking money from the register, the two men turned to Lovell and demanded his wallet, police said.
As the two tried to force Lovell into the ladies’ room where he thought he would be killed, the former Marine reached behind his back to grab his .45-caliber handgun, which he fired seven times at the two men, according to the police statement.

He was armed. He did not jump up and draw his weapon and begin to blaze away the moment the men announced a holdup. He even turned over his wallet on demand (not in this story, but I've read may news accounts of it). When the robbers demanded that the customers go into the back room, he made the judgment that he and his fellow customers were about to be murdered, and he acted. He did not draw his weapon and demand that they surrender. He did not wave it about like a magic wand that cures all ills and terrifies all bad guys. He drew, aimed, and shot both men in the chest immediately.

Textbook.

People without an understanding of why and how these two situations were different should reconsider their decision to go about armed - they may have a gun, but they haven't a clue. Of the two, I'd prefer they keep their minds with them at all times.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Ya Subway I remember that one. I remember hearing of Dunkin doughnuts being robbed thru the drive thru!!

Plantation isn't as bad as Biscayne. A long time ago inside a mall called Dadeland mall was a huge cartel shootout in broad daylight.

http://deansguide.wordpress.com/2008/07/13/miami-dadeland-massacre-1979-the-war-on-drugs-begins/

If you see the part on the video called KING'S COURT thats right next to me. AT 5:31 On the video

 

[MJS]

Interesting points on both sides here. I suppose this is no different than if someone was unarmed and involved themselves in a dispute between 2 people. I see the point that Bill is making....what if the good guy, during the shooting, shot an innocent bystander. Of course, the flip side and I'm sure some may be thinking...well, what if the cops shot an innocent bystander?

Now, involving myself in a situation with people I don't know, vs. being in an establishment, something happens, well, I'm in that building, so yes, in that case, I'm involved.

My hat goes off to the good guy and I hope that he recovers from his injuries. The bad guy...well, he chose this path, and he got what he deserved, because I'm sure we all know that he's probably a repeat offender, and even if given jail time, would most likely go out and do it again. This time though, he won't.

As always, anytime I find myself in these types of threads, I say the same thing....I'm not anti-gun. I have no issues with someone owning or carrying. However, if that is what you choose to do, then make sure that you can handle yourself in situations like we see here. To think that an occasional trip to the range, where its just you and the paper target that doesnt shoot back, with nobody else around, with pleanty of light and no stress, well, I think those folks are kidding themselves and the risk of playing hero runs higher than if you did nothing at all. Bottom line...be safe, use your head, and if you decide to act, make damn sure you know what you're doing.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Praying for a speedy recovery for the customer. And may God have mercy on the soul of the robber.

Daniel

 

[Andy Moynihan]

I have used this news story before as what I consider to be an exemplar for the proper use of CCW and deadly force. I would ask the astute reader to compare and contrast.

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2007/07/marine_subway_robbery_070702/



He was armed. He did not jump up and draw his weapon and begin to blaze away the moment the men announced a holdup. He even turned over his wallet on demand (not in this story, but I've read may news accounts of it). When the robbers demanded that the customers go into the back room, he made the judgment that he and his fellow customers were about to be murdered, and he acted. He did not draw his weapon and demand that they surrender. He did not wave it about like a magic wand that cures all ills and terrifies all bad guys. He drew, aimed, and shot both men in the chest immediately.

Textbook.

People without an understanding of why and how these two situations were different should reconsider their decision to go about armed - they may have a gun, but they haven't a clue. Of the two, I'd prefer they keep their minds with them at all times.

On this point we are in absolute agreement that the man in your situation had his head about him in the way one who goes armed ought to.

We don't know yet about this other fellow's particulars.

I think we agree on more than we disagree, our only diverging point seems to be how long we'd wait or how ugly we'd allow it to get before action. But again, this is a text forum. Something may be lost that isn't translating over.

 

[chinto]

The 'what if game' is a fun one to play.....such as

What if he had not pulled out his gun and the robber shot one of the customers or employees in the head?

What if no one else had been armed, and he herded everyone else in the back and executed them, ala the Lane Bryant massacre/robbery? http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,332606,00.html

At the end of the day, you pays your money and you takes your chances......but being ARMED at least puts your destiny in your own hands.......rather than being entirely a passive observer of your own fate, and entirely reliant upon an armed criminals good graces.......and SOMETIMES having the ability to choose is the best you can ask for out of the situation.

yep at least if you are armed you have the option of engaging the enemy with a weapon yourself. no one says you have to do so, but it gives you the choice and the control of your life in a situation like that. would I have drawn my weapon and engaged the robber? dont know. but if you fight, armed or unarmed please REMEMBER THIS:

IF YOU FIGHT YOU MAY DIE! that is true weather there are weapons involved or not.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

IF YOU FIGHT YOU MAY DIE! that is true weather there are weapons involved or not.

If there are weapons involved, it is also good to remember that if you fight, other people may die, too. And not necessarily you or the bad guy. Just a thought.

 

[Gordon Nore]

I am a pro-gun person. I am in favor of armed citizens. I also fear that the overwhelming majority of my fellow citizens are booger-eatin' morons who don't know the first thing about gun safety or when they can or should engage in self-defense with a firearm.

When you go about armed, you pays your money and you take everybody's chances.

Bill,

Thanks for your insights.