Category Completion

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Mr. Hawkins:

I'm glad you're one of the good guys.

Dave

 

[kenpo3631]

It's not hard to understand. But by definition of it being a concept it is open to interpretation....many of which are not your own singular interpretation. By the way did you mean to be condescending while disagreeing? If so, unnecessary.

First, nothing I posted was meant to be condencending. The definition of "concept" means organized around a main idea or theme, in our case motion, or created to illustrate a concept, I.e. conceptual box theory.

The fundamentals to Kenpo are its basics. We are taught them by side, method and angle. I.e. right upward vertical hook kick or left inward horizontal elbow or an upward elbow break, etc. There are also only so many ways you can work on an opponent's arm given the way we work our opponents weapons, I.e. on top, underneath , to the inside or the outside of the weapon. If we explore the written curriculum there are only so many basics written. I believe Mr. Parker intentionally had this done to give students a starting point. It was left up to the student (with the assistance of a qualified instructor and through anaylsis of the Universal Pattern) to find the other ways in which to employ basics. It is also my belief that Mr. Parker wanted students to do this to have them find out for themselves what was useful, unuseful or useless. I am sure if one were to go through all the ways to do a hook kick I am sure you will find a method that would be useless. I believe that Mr. Parker included the "practicable" methods into the forms and techniques to illustrate their use. I also feel that he left some out "on purpose" to make us do some of the work. I found that the answers you work the hardest to find are the ones you most never forget.

O, this is a long lead in to the meat of your point of view and I'll cross reference it to mine. Feel free to disagree but you need no be condescending when you do so.

You're right, that was the meat of my point of view. It's how "I" view the concept. I like to keep things simple.

Each power principle has two main directions it follows (except torque which can really go in any direction as it has multiple planes). These two directions are the opposites and reverses to each other which is what Cat Com is.... "For every motion, principle or concept there is an opposite and a reverse".

Nicely put. However I look at Category Completion when refering to the "motion" I.e. "matched sets", "standard opposes'", basics, etc... Not so much the Power Principles. Heck you got forward, backwards, up and down, and torque is like you already stated. Simple

As I stated before in regard to picking the optimum angle of execution/retraction, this should be covered in the ideal phase of the technique when it is taught to you. We are expected to find the variations through practice with your partner. The standards are the standards. Five Swords ends with a downward hammering chop for a reason, you can do the chop with a different method of execution, but why?

In studying the multiple angles, opposites and reverse you will find what is optimal for many situations. The ideal phase is only one specific situation and even then the angles of execution/retraction do not have the same optimal angles due to our individual differences.

optimum angle is what was addressed. Sure theier a many angles you can strike from that will cause different results, however I choose to base my satatements on the "ideal phase" of the technique. The vehicle to convey the proper "angles of execution" before exploring other avenues.

The idea is sound but in actuality it does not work. People having different bone structures and ranges of motion will cause deviations in what an 'optimum' or optimal angle is.

Why doesn't it? A hammer is a hammer whether you are 5 ft tall or 6 ft tall. It's how you employ body mechanics and power principles to make it work.

Increasing mental/physical/perceptual speed I feel would come through practice of the material on a person

A person doing what?

On a person, I.e the opponent or "judo dummy" or "training partner" , you know someone to actually do the technique on.

giving resistance, being compliant, being non compliant? And what are you practicing on the person? ideal phase, formualtion, what-ifing.

Depending on the belt level, and depending on what you feel like working on will dictate the degree in which your partner will react in training. The other half or knowing the Kenpo techniques is knowing the attackers side. I.e. how will the opponent most likely react when struck in a certain target. So if we were training and I kicked you in the groin I would expect you to bend forward at the waist, because 9 times out of 10 that's what generally happens.

If it's anything other than ideal then Cat Com becomes highly applicable as that is what leads to a greater understanding of angles, positions, etc.

I don't see it. Maybe knowing the other techniques in the sytem helped me with the what if and formulation.

Balance and recovery while trying to effect a moving and thinking target is quite an exercise. Even without thinking about it your brain is analyzing the different positions and angles and cataloging what is working and what isn't. If you grapple for example you try to push and it doesn't work the opposite is a pull. That's active practice of a CAt COM concept and in doing so your balance and recovery are being worked on as you try to maintain an advantageous position over a moving and thinking target

I guess so. I'm thinking it is working strategy to get waht works TO work.

Stance work as in stance set? or forms? or sparring? or resistance training?

All of the above. After all Stances are are at the top of the basics list. Got to establish that base!

Additional targets come through reaction but what reactions you get and what targets you get are often a direct reflection of what actions you choose. Your chooses are dependent on what you have been exposed to with regards to the executions of your basics. The executions of your basics in their varying angles, directions, methods of execution, etc. is trained by examining them. Cat Com is ONE way of examining them.

Isn't that what I said?

As far as aiding in target creation, I thought additional targets became available during the course of a technique through reaction (a factor inherently built in by Mr. Parker) , whether is be from us evading or redirecting the attack or by physically making him react through striking.

Cat Com is ONE way of examining them

I still don't see how target creation fits in with the Category Completion Concept. I guess it could. I just don't see it that way.

So.....You think of Cat Com as merely a system of organization and seem to disregard the active use of the organization.

Yes and no. I feel the system of Kenpo is an active use of organization.

I see Cat Com as a system of organization.......with the purpose of outlining in a logical, consistent, and organized way what I need to work on. Cat Com starts the process and is the foundation by which all the other aspects are built upon. This is my interpretation

And that's where you and I differ, nothing wrong with that.

So if Cat Com is how the basics and their employment are explored and the other things are built on the basics....how does Cat Com not apply to the things that are built from the base that Cat Com explores?

To be honest I used to get caught up in all the "sophistication" too. Then someone told me to look at it simply for what it's worth. In other words don't read too much into it, and you know what? My understanding of things became so much clearer. It is the way I choose to look at things. I am not saying you are right or wrong. It's you're opinion and you are entitled to as I am of mine.

Thank you for the excellent debate.:asian:

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

First, nothing I posted was meant to be condencending. The definition of "concept" means organized around a main idea or theme, in our case motion, or created to illustrate a concept, I.e. conceptual box theory.............Yes and no. I feel the system of Kenpo is an active use of organization..............

Thank you for the excellent debate.:asian:

I got one question. How do YOU view Cat Com in the sense of being 'active' versus passive (passive to me meaning just a method of collecting and organizing)? I'm interested in your point of view and this is not meant to be a loaded question.

Thanks for the debate as well, I enjoy a well thought out discussion. My apologies for the "condescending" remarks. Too much gets lost/misinterpreted in the translation of pure text.

 

[kenpo3631]

I don't look it as an "active" anything. I understand it to be a way of (for a lack of a better term), cataloging aspects of motion. There are only so many ways to do a basic or a manuever, not all of them or practical or useful. In addition there are, I feel, that the concept when paralleled with forms & technique practice acts as a guide to help the student determine what is useful, unuseful and useless. A perfect example of how I look at Category Completion would be with shuffles. You have the step drag, the drag step, the push drag, and pull drag. That's it for shuffles, category completed. See what I'm getting at?

I hope that made some sense:idunno:

 

[kenpo3631]

Darting Leaves is not really a "lost technique" it's a category completion technique for the form. In the previous technique 'Protecting Fans' you did a kick + eye poke with opposite hand opposite foot. In "Darting Leaves" you do a kick + eye poke with the same hand and foot.

But a solid list of "lost techniques" could go:

1. Aggressive Twins -- taught in some places but not in Infinite Insights list.
2. Spreading Branch -- taught in some places but not in Infinite Insights list.
3. Intellectual Departure -- taught in some places but not in Infinite Insights list.
4. Broken Leaves -- Long 3 -- Category completion technique
5. Spiraling Ram -- 'What if' to the other ram techniques
6. Darting Leaves -- Form 4 -- Category completion technique
7. Pinning Wing -- Long 3 -- Category completion technique
8. Controlling Wing -- Long 3 -- Category completion technique
9. Hopping Crane -- Form 5 -- Category completion technique
10. Deflecting the Rod -- Form 6 first side of Twisted Rod is called this at times
11. Unfurling lance -- Form 6 -- Unfurling Crane modified for a knife
12. Clipping the Lance -- Form 6 -- Clipping the Storm modified for a knife.

Hmmmm..... seems like you knew what I was getting at all along.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Hmmmm..... seems like you knew what I was getting at all along.

As I said. I understand it well. I just take the concept arguably "further" than the cursory use of cataloging. I guess I just try to get more bang for my buck. Cat Com roadmaps my practice.

 

[Atlanta-Kenpo]

I think it has a very small point but there are those that spend all there time chasing that dam puzzle and mean time they can't fight any better. It will help you get the big picture of where the knowledge is at but there is alot of fluff out there that is not very usefull.
I believe that 80% of the knowledge in EPAK can be found in 20% of the techniques, forms and sets.
I am a bit on the rebel side here and think that once you learn a technique you should spend some time in a technique line but you need to break away from that and freaking spare. I see too many people out there with lots of red on there belts that can do a technique with someone standing there letting them hit them 40 times but watch them spare (that is if they do at all.) and they could not make there kenpo work at all.

Bunch of dam sissy out there!!!!!

hahahaha

Sorry guys just had to vent.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

I think it has a very small point but there are those that spend all there time chasing that dam puzzle and mean time they can't fight any better. It will help you get the big picture of where the knowledge is at but there is alot of fluff out there that is not very usefull.
I believe that 80% of the knowledge in EPAK can be found in 20% of the techniques, forms and sets.
I am a bit on the rebel side here and think that once you learn a technique you should spend some time in a technique line but you need to break away from that and freaking spare. I see too many people out there with lots of red on there belts that can do a technique with someone standing there letting them hit them 40 times but watch them spare (that is if they do at all.) and they could not make there kenpo work at all.

Bunch of dam sissy out there!!!!!

hahahaha

Sorry guys just had to vent.

Vent away. I agree.