Canada and US comparison

[Bammx2]

No matter what side of the "wall" you're on...
only one thing is guarunteed to work in the long run.............
Education and time...LOTS of time!

Its like a fist full of sand,the tighter you squeeze...the more slips through your fingers.
Its amasing how much more you can hold with an opened hand,don'tcha think?

Isolationism breeds suspicion and contempt....and we all know "isms" are bad things

 

[Andrew Green]

Passports are just another bureaucratic procedure, a hoop for good people to jump through. In a way, passports make it easier for the government to breath down the neck of the average citizen.

Yup, the harder you make it to do something legally, the more tempting it becomes to just do it illegally.

Software is the same way. Legal software is a pain in the... Got to install it, enter a long key, register online, often can't run it without the disk, reinstalling is a pain. Wonder how many people will just get fed up and go to either free software, or less then legal copies of the proprietary.

Make border crossing a pain and it will get rather tempting to just cross at unpatrolled areas, simply for convienience...

But punish the good people, that seems to be the way. Give them the illusion that everyone has to go through that and the other ways must be far more trouble.

The People that are going to use pirated software are going to use it regardless of what keys and registration get put in there, they'll find an easy way around it. All that those things do is inconvience their paying customers, same for borders. The bad people will get in regardless and this just pisses off the good people.

 

[OUMoose]

The problem is, is that it stops the stupid ones, but not the ones with some planning or backing. As I said, how hard would it be for someone with cash, to get a surplus sub, load it up, and let a few frogmen out off shore?

When they have managed to figure out how to stop the illegals from crossing in, how to stop the importation of drugs, maybe, just maybe, I'll think they have the ability to do proper ID checks.

To me, it's one more expense, 1 more item to keep track of, 1 more item to worry about, in an age when, I simply don't have time.

I need:
* my birth certificate (easily self-printed)
* A Social Security card (which was never meant to be ID, and very few groups are legally entitled to see it. Hint - Your land lord is not 1 of them)
* A drivers Licence (which says I have permission to drive, and is easily forged)

Now, I need yet another paper, which is still forgable.

Where is the security?
Do we think Osama can't afford a couple more reams of paper?


Heres an Idea.
National ID card.
Card has image of you, fingerprints, contact info, and an ID # (Not SSN)
Anyone who needs to verify your ID subscribes to a service (encrypted) and can run your card through (wand it, flash it, swipe it, etc).
You place a finger on a reader, it scans ya.
It checks the central database, displays the intel in the DB, and the pic.
It's a match, youre good.
If not, yer toast.

Works as ID, Drivers Licence, Passport, union card, whatever.

1 card. Not 1 bazillion bits of paper.
Your FACE and prints become your ID.

The card in your possesion, your face and your prints MUST match what is in the encrpyted db. Osama can run off a million of em. Unless he has access to the DB to insert his boys prints.....

Tell ya what. Instead of a card, lets put it on a little chip and you can imbed all that info into the back of your hand. Can't be duped, unless of course you rip off someone's hand.

Nice thinking, Mr. Orwell.

As was said, people will get in no matter what. If it slows them down, great. If it stops the dumb ones, even better. All the other moaning and groaning is just because you're going to be inconvenienced for $10/year (which you could most likely find walking down the street). :idunno:

 

[loki09789]

The problem is, is that it stops the stupid ones, but not the ones with some planning or backing. As I said, how hard would it be for someone with cash, to get a surplus sub, load it up, and let a few frogmen out off shore?

When they have managed to figure out how to stop the illegals from crossing in, how to stop the importation of drugs, maybe, just maybe, I'll think they have the ability to do proper ID checks.

To me, it's one more expense, 1 more item to keep track of, 1 more item to worry about, in an age when, I simply don't have time.

I need:
* my birth certificate (easily self-printed)
* A Social Security card (which was never meant to be ID, and very few groups are legally entitled to see it. Hint - Your land lord is not 1 of them)
* A drivers Licence (which says I have permission to drive, and is easily forged)

Now, I need yet another paper, which is still forgable.

Where is the security?
Do we think Osama can't afford a couple more reams of paper?


Heres an Idea.
National ID card.
Card has image of you, fingerprints, contact info, and an ID # (Not SSN)
Anyone who needs to verify your ID subscribes to a service (encrypted) and can run your card through (wand it, flash it, swipe it, etc).
You place a finger on a reader, it scans ya.
It checks the central database, displays the intel in the DB, and the pic.
It's a match, youre good.
If not, yer toast.

Works as ID, Drivers Licence, Passport, union card, whatever.

1 card. Not 1 bazillion bits of paper.
Your FACE and prints become your ID.

The card in your possesion, your face and your prints MUST match what is in the encrpyted db. Osama can run off a million of em. Unless he has access to the DB to insert his boys prints.....

First off, this passport thing has been in place in Europe for a long time and people have lived and it has proven useful for international policing to nab bad guys trying to cross borders.

Secondly, it is MUCH harder to get men, equiptment and such over borders that have intent to do harm BECAUSE they have to train somewhere, they have to buy things somewhere and they have to communicate with support networks than you would think. Having served in the military I know that it is expensive and time consuming through legitimate channels, it is even harder to do on a productive scale through illegitimate ones.

...passports are only part of a total system/package of security not a stand alone.

Maybe just maybe, the passport thing will even have an impact on drug trafficing too.

Heck, screw the cards and let's go straight to subcutal ID barcodes for convenience: One chip ALL your info in one convenient place....or is that too 'big brother' too.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Ok....

True or False
- There is a database for personal information connected to your drivers licence.
- That database is already shared with various government and financial institutions.
- There is a database for information connected to your social security account.
- There is a database for information connected to your taxes and employment history.
- There is a database connected to your criminal history.
- There is a database connected to your medical history.
- There may be multiple databases at different locations that duplicate all or some of the above, with varying degrees of accuracy.

I live in NY.
NY has a database on me.
Several.
1 for my licence.
1 for my employement.
1 for my tax history.
etc.

How many companies maintain databases of our credit histories?

Is it an invasion of my privacy to centralize that information?
If it was centralized, wouldn't that mean the information had a better chance of being secure, accurate and properly controled? (IE my landlord couldn't demand my SSN anymore.)

Your face is mostly unique. Your prints are in most cases unique.
We don't need a tatooed barcode, implanted chip, etc. Nature has already provided us with our unique identifyers. (Hell, include a sample of my DNA)

Right now, my personal data is scattered across a thousand agencies, who abuse and misuse it. While I highly mistrust the government, if it was all in 1 place, I could more easily access it, check it, and assert my OWN control over it.

In the end, all the extra paperwork will only hurt the average, law obeying citizen.
As has been said so many times, the criminals don't care, and will find a way, regardless.

Yes, it is possible to abuse -any- system, but....
In an age when I can be denied housing because my landlord saw my tax returns, medical history and credit report, or an employer can decide I'm not employable because I'm in debt, or my car insurance is at it's highest because I was late on a few credit card payments, I find the abuse and invasion is already there.

I simply continue to fail to see how adding 1 more forgable document into the mix will do anything other than increase my costs.


Now...regarding that chip.....
Lets make it stylish, modular, with interchangable covers. The kids will love it.
Call it Poke-RiF....gotta "bleep" em all.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

So it really doesn't cost you a thing in the end.....

A $300 deduction is not the same as $300 cash.
I have to come up with the money now. Not later.
I do not get the money back at the end of the year.
It reduces my 'income' so I pay less taxes...but it is rarely a 1:1 ratio.

The fact that I can write off a $10,000 printer is nice.
I still need that $10,000.

 

[loki09789]

A $300 deduction is not the same as $300 cash.
I have to come up with the money now. Not later.
I do not get the money back at the end of the year.
It reduces my 'income' so I pay less taxes...but it is rarely a 1:1 ratio.

The fact that I can write off a $10,000 printer is nice.
I still need that $10,000.

Well if you could afford that $10,000 printer it doesn't seem that you 'need' the written off amount in cash as much as it would be nice to be able to have both or that you 'want' it.

Same with the passport expense...of course you could support good old US trade and stay within the borders for business, contribute to the US economy pool instead of spending your money on foriegn soil.....

 

[Bob Hubbard]

First off, this passport thing has been in place in Europe for a long time and people have lived and it has proven useful for international policing to nab bad guys trying to cross borders.

Last conversation I had with a European, they basically said once you're in the EU, it's like crossing from NY to PA.

Secondly, it is MUCH harder to get men, equiptment and such over borders that have intent to do harm BECAUSE they have to train somewhere, they have to buy things somewhere and they have to communicate with support networks than you would think. Having served in the military I know that it is expensive and time consuming through legitimate channels, it is even harder to do on a productive scale through illegitimate ones.

Many toxins can be smuggled in small containers, easily transported by 1 man. AK-47's are $7 each in Somalia. Waterproof containers, scuba gear, and many "very dangerous things" are easily obtained, inexpensively, if you know where to look. Small unit "hit squads" can easily swim ashore on 3 coasts.

I'd feel better if I knew how many interceptions had been done...rather than giving illegals SSI.

[quote...passports are only part of a total system/package of security not a stand alone. [/quote]
And the system depends on trained border patrol, who know what to look for, who have the equipment to look with, and the manpower to do it right. All 3 are pieces that have been sorely lacking for years.

Maybe just maybe, the passport thing will even have an impact on drug trafficing too.

Only from the dumb ones.

Heck, screw the cards and let's go straight to subcutal ID barcodes for convenience: One chip ALL your info in one convenient place....or is that too 'big brother' too.

Can I have mine on my ***? This way, I can comply while showing em all what I think?

 

[Andrew Green]

Same with the passport expense...of course you could support good old US trade and stay within the borders for business, contribute to the US economy pool instead of spending your money on foriegn soil.....

Ok... So if all those foreign countries stopped spending money that went to the US that would be good too?

Kinda misses the idea of the free trade thing doesn't it?

 

[TonyM.]

Apparently our forefathers made a big mistake and we really aren't ready for democracy and freedom. Too bad. It was a nice dream.

 

[loki09789]

Ok... So if all those foreign countries stopped spending money that went to the US that would be good too?

Kinda misses the idea of the free trade thing doesn't it?

I think you missed the smiley face that was intended to imply a joking comment.

 

[Andrew Green]

I think you missed the smiley face that was intended to imply a joking comment.

opps

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Returning to the requirement that US Citizens will need a US Passport to reenter the US...

Part of the problem is, we don't really think of Canada as a foriegn country. In most cases, crossing the border has been little more uncomfortable than getting stuck at a toll booth on the highway.

We have over 75 possible forms of ID in this country, with regular updates, changes, etc. High school kids have for decades made knockoffs so they can get into bars to drink. So, I can see reason to say "This one is the one we accept. The rest are no longer valid.".

So, from an efficency level, yeah, it makes sence.

But, to suggest we will somehow be safer because of it...I doubt it.
For as much as it streamlines and simplifys things for the Border Patrol, it also simplifys things for the "bad guys" who can now focus on counterfitting 1 ID form, rather than many.

It also doesn't address the fact that they can counterfit other nations just as well.

To me, it is an inconcenience, an unwelcome expense, and in the end, little more than "the illusion of security".

 

[raedyn]

I think the confusion lies with Americans (not all, but some) - every Canadian I have met is well aware of the often large differences between the two - which often comes out with the waves of Americans seeks drugs and healthcare up north, for example.

YES!
Many Canadians (myself included) get pretty offended at the notion that we're the same as Americans.

Let's see how many of you can be dirt poor, no job and still walk into any hospital you want and get the same medical care as the richest dude in the country. What was America's second official language again? Who is your Queen? Who are your non-elected Senators that can't be recalled and that get paid until they're 70 (whether they actually show up to work or not) and then get a sweet retirement package? Where are your multiple political parties that actually have representation in the halls of the national government? Can you name all 50 states, 9 provinces and 3 territories? What percentage of your population suffers through minus 40 winters? Can your gay and lesbian citizens get legally married?

Oh what, you mean we aren't the same? Oh. I see.

 

[Rich Parsons]

YES!
Many Canadians (myself included) get pretty offended at the notion that we're the same as Americans.

Let's see how many of you can be dirt poor, no job and still walk into any hospital you want and get the same medical care as the richest dude in the country. What was America's second official language again? Who is your Queen? Who are your non-elected Senators that can't be recalled and that serve until they're 70 and then get a sweet retirement package? What percentage of your population suffers through minus 40 winters? Can your gay and lesbian citizens get legally married? Oh what, you mean we aren't the same? Oh. I see.

It was quite funny, I was in Japan, and everryone asked me if I was Canadian? I replied no why? They said I was not rude and willing to be polite. So, the rest of the trip (* two weeks *) it was just easier to say I was Canadian then to have the locals tell me No way, you are not American. You speak some Japanese, . . .

Living north of Canada as I do (* Windsor is South / South East of Detroit *) I have had some interactions with Canadians. Just like any culture, there are nice and there a meand or rude, or helpful or . . . .

:asian:

 

[Bammx2]

YES!
Many Canadians (myself included) get pretty offended at the notion that we're the same as Americans.

Let's see how many of you can be dirt poor, no job and still walk into any hospital you want and get the same medical care as the richest dude in the country. What was America's second official language again? Who is your Queen? Who are your non-elected Senators that can't be recalled and that get paid until they're 70 (whether they actually show up to work or not) and then get a sweet retirement package? Where are your multiple political parties that actually have representation in the halls of the national government? Can you name all 50 states, 9 provinces and 3 territories? What percentage of your population suffers through minus 40 winters? Can your gay and lesbian citizens get legally married?

Oh shucks...we have offended somebody
:shrug:

 

[Feisty Mouse]

It was quite funny, I was in Japan, and everryone asked me if I was Canadian? I replied no why? They said I was not rude and willing to be polite. So, the rest of the trip (* two weeks *) it was just easier to say I was Canadian then to have the locals tell me No way, you are not American. You speak some Japanese, . . .

Similar to my experience in Australia. My friend and I -both American - were often mistaken for/assumed we were Canadian - because we were polite, and down-to-earth.

 

[Bammx2]

It was quite funny, I was in Japan, and everryone asked me if I was Canadian? I replied no why? They said I was not rude and willing to be polite. I have been in the UK for 5 years now and I get the same thing here,only opposite.
They talk about the arrogance the canadians have.
But do I agree?
NNOOOOOOO!
Being from the south,I still defended everyone and tell them not judge the whole country on the actions of a few.
But thank you raedyn....
its people like you who make my contribution IMPOSSIBLE!

 

[Feisty Mouse]

I have been in the UK for 5 years now and I get the same thing here,only opposite.
They talk about the arrogance the canadians have.
But do I agree?
NNOOOOOOO!
Being from the south,I still defended everyone and tell them not judge the whole country on the actions of a few.
But thank you raedyn....
its people like you who make my contribution IMPOSSIBLE!

I think you are still free to make a contribution, if you are talking about demonstrating to people from another country that you are a good representative of your nation.... I'd focus more on what you do than anything else. How raedyn's comments will affect your friend in the UK is beyond me.

And with comments like

Oh shucks...we have offended somebody
:shrug:

you're not going to win more friends to your cause, lol.

 

[Bammx2]

I think you are still free to make a contribution, if you are talking about demonstrating to people from another country that you are a good representative of your nation.... I'd focus more on what you do than anything else. How raedyn's comments will affect your friend in the UK is beyond me.

And with comments like


you're not going to win more friends to your cause, lol.

I understand everything you said.
Except "my friend"...I mean the whole country here.Since this is where I live for the time being and will for some time to come.
The only thing that makes me different from certain people is the fact that I don't judge a whole country based on the moronic politicians who represent it..
I don't believe in ANY polictical party anywhere.
They are NOT the true representation of the people of the country as a whole.
I have met people here who STILL thinks the they are the aristocracy from the middle ages and based on that,they are the true representatives of the UK.Sorry!
I just get fed up when people pass judgement when they have no idea.So I am guilty of throwin a rock or two in defense of my "tribe"......

But I must say...there is one thing I miss about ohio.............
Indiana!