Can some weapon arts/weapons actually be considered martial arts anymore?

[Ceicei]

When you define war, do you mean a group of people against another group? A single hand-to-hand combat between two individuals could be considered a war (as in 2a below). Many here study martial arts under the definition of 1b.

To claim what people study is not a martial art is narrowing your scope/definition rather restrictively.

- Ceicei

From Merriam-Webster dictionary:

Main Entry: 1war
Pronunciation: 'wor
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: Middle English werre, from Old North French, of Germanic origin; akin to Old High German werra strife; akin to Old High German werran to confuse
1 a (1) : a state of usually open and declared armed hostile conflict between states or nations (2) : a period of such armed conflict (3) : [SIZE=-1]STATE OF WAR[/SIZE] b : the art or science of warfare c (1) obsolete : weapons and equipment for war (2) archaic : soldiers armed and equipped for war
2 a : a state of hostility, conflict, or antagonism b : a struggle or competition between opposing forces or for a particular end <a class war> <a war against disease> c : [SIZE=-1]VARIANCE[/SIZE], [SIZE=-1]ODDS [/SIZE]3
- war·less /-l&s/ adjective

 

[spinkick]

Honestly, using the sword is like my form of golf. I know I will probably have to use it to defend myself but whatever It's more about self improvement then anything... Also I have a pair of nunchaku that I can conceal if I really wanted to.....

 

[Phadrus00]

BS,

This is an interesting questions and some very good points have been made. Let me offer up a couple of definitions from Wikipedia:

Martial arts are systems of codified practices and traditions of training for combat. Today, martial arts are studied for various reasons including combat skills, sport, fitness, self-defense, self-cultivation (meditation), mental discipline, character development and building self-confidence.

And another because it it relevant to the above definition:

Combat, or fighting, is purposeful violent conflict between one or more persons or organizations, often intended to establish dominance over the opposition. The term "combat" typically refers to armed conflict between military forces in warfare, whereas the more general term "fighting" can refer to any violent conflict, including boxing and wrestling matches. Combat violence can be unilateral, whereas fighting implies at least a defensive reaction. However, the terms are often used synonymously.

From my perspective "Martial" refers not only to the larger state of War but to Combat in general and that can be on the Large (as in War) or on the small (A mugging) so the term Martial Arts can cover all these theaters and scales of combat. Furthermore Armies who practice War on the large are really composed of Craftsmen, not Artists. They are looking for fast, efficient, predicable and reliable tools for vanquising the enemy. There is little Art in their methods or technologies, just efficiency. Studying historical weapons, methods, encounters and strategies may not assist the Craftman in the firing of his new Laser Guided Missle thingie, but it assists the Commanding officer, or the General's perspective on the situation and perhaps offers larger, more timeless lessons on the conducting of War.

To the personal practicioner, knwing the finer points of drawing a sword may not be very practical when faced with a Mugger, however knowing how to move with agility and root when needed can assist them in dealing with a conflict greatly, not to mention the advantage of perhaps being calmer in thought and focus.

I like to think that practicing the Martial Arts transcends any one Style or Weapon and is a path towards understanding our own mortality and developing the calm, focused mind of a true warrior.

Regards,
Rob

 

[Silly Limey]

Still, they might be helpful if you commonly carry around swords or kamas. Some people do.

 

[Silverwing]

The three purposes of Tang Soo Do are Self Defense, become a better person, and health. Certainly the use of swords and other weapons can improve discipline and health. In Tang Soo Do weapons generally have, if I'm not mistaken, 9 strikes plus the reverse of some of those strikes. These strikes are neck to waist on both sides, neck to underarm on both sides, straight verticle, straight horizontal, center stab, high stab, and rodondo, which is a kind of circle around the face, the purpose of which I'm not certain... But these same basic strikes that we use translate freely from staff to rope to knife, even to sword. And they translate back. I've sparred, using a single ended staff stance, against a student with two wooden swords. Although I used more stabbing techniques and he used mostly slashing techniques both weapon sets used fairly similar basic strikes in the way the weapons moved. Still think that sword training is useless then give someone trained in sword combat a decent sized stick and see what happens when you attack them. Sounds painful to me.

 

[tradrockrat]

I think you're looking at it the wrong way. it's not about the actual every day use of the weapon, it's about the potentiality of the weapon to be used in a martial manner by you. So if I train in the dha (sword) it IS a martial art because I have the ability to use it to take a life in self defense or combat. Thus the term Martial is applicable.

 

[beau_safken]

May I present the following evidence in the usage of Wikipedia for anything regarding subjective matter:

Talk about rezzing a thread from the dead.

I think you are confusing a sport with a martial art. It's a matter of practical application, not the art itself. The example martial arts like Iaido, Kendo, and Kyudo are all sport martial arts now because they have limited practical application. Granted they are nice to learn for body and mind, etc... But in the world of martial art...I can't say that. I would have to say more Martial sport. There is a holy ideal with martial arts and all to some practicioners, but that isn't what the martial arts are about. The root of our arts is derived from battle tested practical knowledge. When our society and others changed from bows and arrows to guns, Kyudo was dead. When most people fighting would engage from miles not feet apart, swords died out Kendo = KIA.

You can enjoy your choice of art, but in the real world of application..is it a sport for hobby, or a method of self defense?

 

[tradrockrat]

And I would argue just the opposite.

Martial art - artistic expression of martial activities and techniques - it's an art!

Martial sport - Sporting events based around martial practices

Martial combat - war and battle - only the most up to date and practical techniques and weapons are used because the end result is death for the loser.

This is exactly how we teach it in Bando and we strive to maintain distinct borders in what we train. We call it:

low style - brutal combat intended to kill the opponent as fast as possible. Swords and bows doen't exist at this level, theough we do train with knives, stick weapons, and guns. It doesn't have to be pretty, just work.

Middle style - Kickboxing, wrestling and grappleing for points , KOs, or tap outs - it is a sport testing your skills against another to see who's better at that point in time.

High style - Forms, Katas, all weapons forms, meditation, healing arts, etc. - It's the real "ART" in martial arts. It's emphasis is on technique, style, beauty, grace, perfection of movement and intent. Perfection of form.


So to sum it up, Martial ARTs is where these weapons belong! JMHO

 

[beau_safken]

How many ways can you cut a cake?

How many divisions of martial arts/sports/ido's/jutsu/etc until we arrive at any agreement?

Kama's... useless
Nunchaku's... useless
Katana... useless
Tanto/6"< knife... Useful
Stick... Useful
3 sectional staff... Useless
Sai... Huh?
Gun... Useful
Taser... Useful
Chemical weapons (pepper spray)... useful
Light emitting weapons (Flashlights, strobes, flash's)... Useful

The arguement isn't about arts or whatever...Its about the practical application of weapons from the "arts" in today's world. I don't care about the "Art", I care about the application of the techniques in terms of reality. We don't cut rice with a kama, no sword wielding Samurai have been around in a while, and not too many people have a bow and arrow in a drive by.

That's great that you have passion for the martial arts...but in regards to the concept of this thread, take a step back. Are the weapon's I learn in my art actually useful for anything other than forms?

 

[tradrockrat]

That's great that you have passion for the martial arts...but in regards to the concept of this thread, take a step back. Are the weapon's I learn in my art actually useful for anything other than forms?

Do they have to be to be considered art? That was the question of this thread, right?

A martial art is obviously a "Warlike art" by definition. So therefore, if a weapon is no longer used for war or like purposes, how can it be a martial art then? (emphasis mine)

Art and practicality have virtually nothing to do with one another. How practical is a Monet?

Now if you are asking if your techniques are any use in combat, then the answer is not usually. BUT, if you carry your sword around instead of a knife, isn't it as useful as a knife? I think it all comes down to the specific situation. My baton work - which has been included as a practical weapon in this thread - is pretty usesless against a gun from 20 yards away, but it real nice to have if the guy has a knife. I think the same applies to all weapons.

 

[beau_safken]

Good point man. Damn good point