Can Anyone Identify This Technique For Me?

[Zenjael]

Hello, I haven't posted in awhile, but I am hoping someone may be able to offer me insight.

I believe this is called chaining techniques, but this can also refer to consecutively throwing multiple techniques together in a string.

What I am referring to is what stops just short of merging techniques (such as a chop with the ridge hand for a pressing chop) and is this;

the person initiates the handstrike by extending the hand fingers extended like a spearhand. The hand extends toward the target, and before contact is made, the hand folds into a fist and connects. I've found this technique, which I learned from emulating another teacher of mine, is superior to a normal punch, because it allows a person to get through a person's defenses, pretty much every time. My teacher had a reputation that no matter how you held your hands, or tried to defend, he could always connect, and I believe this is the technique why.

It very much is a spear-hand to a punch, though I have altered it to go spearhand to palm strike, though I have also been able to insert ridge-hand techniques into it now.

Does anyone have any idea what this process is called, or what this technique is called?

I am also unsure if I should tense the fingers as I extend the arm with a spearhand, for though the arm is loose, I can see both advantage and disadvantage from locking the fingers. For example, if blocked, it could lead to injury. If retained loose the fingers can also transition to the next hand position more easily. For now I keep them loose until I've found definitive answers, but so far have unfortunately not.

I found this technique in Chung Do Kwan, though I can see how it could have been pulled from Wing Chun. Thank you to whoever can point me in the right direction.

 

[clfsean]

Hello, I haven't posted in awhile, but I am hoping someone may be able to offer me insight.

I believe this is called chaining techniques, but this can also refer to consecutively throwing multiple techniques together in a string.

What I am referring to is what stops just short of merging techniques (such as a chop with the ridge hand for a pressing chop) and is this;

the person initiates the handstrike by extending the hand fingers extended like a spearhand. The hand extends toward the target, and before contact is made, the hand folds into a fist and connects. I've found this technique, which I learned from emulating another teacher of mine, is superior to a normal punch, because it allows a person to get through a person's defenses, pretty much every time. My teacher had a reputation that no matter how you held your hands, or tried to defend, he could always connect, and I believe this is the technique why.

It very much is a spear-hand to a punch, though I have altered it to go spearhand to palm strike, though I have also been able to insert ridge-hand techniques into it now.

Does anyone have any idea what this process is called, or what this technique is called?

I am also unsure if I should tense the fingers as I extend the arm with a spearhand, for though the arm is loose, I can see both advantage and disadvantage from locking the fingers. For example, if blocked, it could lead to injury. If retained loose the fingers can also transition to the next hand position more easily. For now I keep them loose until I've found definitive answers, but so far have unfortunately not.

I found this technique in Chung Do Kwan, though I can see how it could have been pulled from Wing Chun. Thank you to whoever can point me in the right direction.

There's no Wing Chun in that. And that's not the way CMA "chains" techniques or strikes together.

All that is idea you're talking about is taking a narrow implement & changing it to a larger implement once past defenses. It's sneaky, but nothing else.

 

[Zenjael]

Sorry, I should describe it further. The mechanic operates off the centerline, always. I've never been able to do it from coming over the shoulder, only by aiming inward, then extending, much like a vertical fist from the style, or at least a snapping punch. My apology for saying it was Wing Chun, just that I see how some theory could have been yanked from it to create it. Considering Chung Do Kwan adopted its handwork from Bruce Lee's training to Jhoon Rhee, it's not unfeasible that it is an altered Wing chun technique I am just not familiar with.

 

[Grenadier]

What I am referring to is what stops just short of merging techniques (such as a chop with the ridge hand for a pressing chop) and is this;

the person initiates the handstrike by extending the hand fingers extended like a spearhand. The hand extends toward the target, and before contact is made, the hand folds into a fist and connects. I've found this technique, which I learned from emulating another teacher of mine, is superior to a normal punch, because it allows a person to get through a person's defenses, pretty much every time. My teacher had a reputation that no matter how you held your hands, or tried to defend, he could always connect, and I believe this is the technique why.

What you are describing is nothing more than disguising a technique, simply by changing things at the last second.

Against a neophyte who focuses his attention on the hands, it may have some small benefit, but if they're that inexperienced, then you shouldn't have any problem landing any conventionally thrown punches, etc.

Against an experienced fighter who focuses his attention on the wrists, forearms, or elbows, though, it's not going to help at all.

I am also unsure if I should tense the fingers as I extend the arm with a spearhand, for though the arm is loose, I can see both advantage and disadvantage from locking the fingers. For example, if blocked, it could lead to injury. If retained loose the fingers can also transition to the next hand position more easily. For now I keep them loose until I've found definitive answers, but so far have unfortunately not.

If your spear hand is blocked while your fingers are loose, then you're going to face an even greater possibility of injuring your fingers. While the chances of injury to your finger tips are less, the chances of bending back your fingers, dislocating a knuckle, etc., are much greater.

 

[Touch Of Death]

It's called utilizing points on a circle. I think everyone is fearful you will develop a bad habit of sloppy technique but make sure you are positioning your body at the same time if you explore this further, and it shouldn't be that much of a problem.

 

[Cyriacus]

Its not a special technique, its a trick, as others have said. A risky trick. I can perhaps see switching to a push with the palm instead of a punch, assuming You used the lead hand, before using the rear hand to throw an actual punch. In other words, a distraction instead of a strike. Or with the rear hand, then executing a lead hook punch.
Hey, its no less risky than spearhanding towards a guy.

 

[jks9199]

I'd simply say it's called punching. A beginner in many styles learns to throw a punch by making a fist, and functionally flinging it at the opponent, almost like a rock. With time and training, you learn to punch relaxed, tensing and closing the fist fully just before impact.

Of course, with further practice, you can learn to deliver a series of strikes off of one punch motion, by first making contact with the fingertips in a spearhand, then the fist, then the wrist or elbow, even up to the shoulder. (Personally, I don't like spear hands; my fingers aren't conditioned for them. So I generally would go fist to elbow...)

 

[Zenjael]

Of course, with further practice, you can learn to deliver a series of strikes off of one punch motion, by first making contact with the fingertips in a spearhand, then the fist, then the wrist or elbow, even up to the shoulder. (Personally, I don't like spear hands; my fingers aren't conditioned for them. So I generally would go fist to elbow...)

This I am familiar with. I say throw as many techniques as possible behind every motion for efficiency's sake, I say.

Its not a special technique, its a trick, as others have said. A risky trick. I can perhaps see switching to a push with the palm instead of a punch, assuming You used the lead hand, before using the rear hand to throw an actual punch. In other words, a distraction instead of a strike. Or with the rear hand, then executing a lead hook punch.
Hey, its no less risky than spearhanding towards a guy.

Im inclined to agree it's a trick, my only reservation stems that the strike itself depends on the spearhand for the motion. The smaller surface area really does allow for one to generate greater speed. It's not that it's spearhand, switch to punch. It's punch, building on what the spearhand laid down. But perhaps this is also arguably the same thing- All I know is that the prior technique is not used to 'fake' or lead a person into thinking I'm spearhanding. The spearhand itself is allowing the mechanic to move faster through their guard, and penetrate, from what I can see.

 

[dougmukashi]

I'd simply say it's called punching. A beginner in many styles learns to throw a punch by making a fist, and functionally flinging it at the opponent, almost like a rock. With time and training, you learn to punch relaxed, tensing and closing the fist fully just before impact.

Of course, with further practice, you can learn to deliver a series of strikes off of one punch motion, by first making contact with the fingertips in a spearhand, then the fist, then the wrist or elbow, even up to the shoulder. (Personally, I don't like spear hands; my fingers aren't conditioned for them. So I generally would go fist to elbow...)

Yes, keeping hand open until impact is a better way, increases ki flow.

 

[Cyriacus]

Im inclined to agree it's a trick, my only reservation stems that the strike itself depends on the spearhand for the motion. The smaller surface area really does allow for one to generate greater speed. It's not that it's spearhand, switch to punch. It's punch, building on what the spearhand laid down. But perhaps this is also arguably the same thing- All I know is that the prior technique is not used to 'fake' or lead a person into thinking I'm spearhanding. The spearhand itself is allowing the mechanic to move faster through their guard, and penetrate, from what I can see.

So any Kick that begins with a Chamber is actually a Knee Strike, and not a Kick?

 

[Touch Of Death]

So any Kick that begins with a Chamber is actually a Knee Strike, and not a Kick?

It should be.

 

[Cyriacus]

It should be.

I mean as in, when You do, say, a Front Kick, it isnt really a Front Kick. Theres no such thing. Its a Knee Strike.

 

[Zenjael]

So any Kick that begins with a Chamber is actually a Knee Strike, and not a Kick?

If... the intention is to knee strike, and then execute, I would say this would be the case, though I understand your sarcasm.

But we are speaking about the kind of nuance where in a single motion a person can get struck 3-4 times, all different techniques, as jks pointed out. If in the process of executing a front kick, you can knee them with degree of skill, I'd say why not differentiate the techniques?

But even then, that's still having a biased slant toward the front kick being the primary technique. In what my OP mentions, both techniques, separately, are required to execute this different maneuver. The reason it isn't a feint, or fake, as some have suggested (though it could be) is because the hand is moving too fast. The spear hand is designed to do nothing but shoot, or penetrate through the guard, even if the arms are locked together.

And to be honest, you bring up a good point. The chambering-kicks should be considered different than non-chamber kicks, though can oft be combined. If there's an entire methodology toward kicking which introduces an added step, which creates a marked differentiation in power... I'd say it warrants its own classification with kicking. Likewise, it's component parts, if combat oriented, could arguably be considered unique techniques in their own right.

And for my own sarcasm, a muai thai fighter might sardonically consider a front kick... a sloppy knee strike

 

[Cyriacus]

If... the intention is to knee strike, and then execute, I would say this would be the case, though I understand your sarcasm.

But we are speaking about the kind of nuance where in a single motion a person can get struck 3-4 times, all different techniques, as jks pointed out. If in the process of executing a front kick, you can knee them with degree of skill, I'd say why not differentiate the techniques?

Because there are very few shapes and forms of Front Kicks that dont involve picking the Knee up. Its part of the Kick.

But even then, that's still having a biased slant toward the front kick being the primary technique. In what my OP mentions, both techniques, separately, are required to execute this different maneuver. The reason it isn't a feint, or fake, as some have suggested (though it could be) is because the hand is moving too fast. The spear hand is designed to do nothing but shoot, or penetrate through the guard, even if the arms are locked together.

And to be honest, you bring up a good point. The chambering-kicks should be considered different than non-chamber kicks, though can oft be combined. If there's an entire methodology toward kicking which introduces an added step, which creates a marked differentiation in power... I'd say it warrants its own classification with kicking. Likewise, it's component parts, if combat oriented, could arguably be considered unique techniques in their own right.

Not exactly relevant, My Good Man. But sure.

And for my own sarcasm, a muai thai fighter might sardonically consider a front kick... a sloppy knee strike

You realise You pretty much just made up for anything You may have said or end up saying in This thread by way of jabbing at Muay Thai not being known for its Front Kicks

 

[Zenjael]

You realise You pretty much just made up for anything You may have said or end up saying in This thread by way of jabbing at Muay Thai not being known for its Front Kicks

In the back of my mind I thought that might be an issue, but I figured at the same time it's be like saying Wing Chun doesn't have good wristwork. Apologies, sometimes sarcasm comes off the exact opposite online, and then one looks like a fool. It happens.

Trust me, I am well aware of Muai Thai's ability to front kick. The Moo Duk Kwan I first learned was developed from Taekyon, which at least in terms of its strikes, I can't help but see great similarity between the kicking styles south of China. Pretty much anything in southern China, and below, had phenomenal kicking ability. I pay great respect toward muai thai, and highly recommend anyone who's learned or practiced the WTF variant of TKD to pursue study in Muai Thai to further their kicking ability (especially in terms of power).

God help the other person if they figure out how to incorporare chamber kicks (from say the vein of Shotokan). It's not fun for the other.

Because there are very few shapes and forms of Front Kicks that dont involve picking the Knee up. Its part of the Kick... Not exactly relevant, My Good Man. But sure.

You're right. I can think of... one. The snap kick, and it's pretty much only good for ball shots, chin, and I suppose hands (elbow when not locked or bent. You know, hit it when it's smart and won't injure you for it). But I think what I spoke about is relevant, because we're talking about a technique which transitions from another technique, building on it, creating a different technique. For example, I worked with a silat practitioner about a week ago, and because I have particularly fast hands (im not bragging, im small, so I focus exclusively on developing this so I can compensate for the inequality) he asked if he could practice blocking jabs I threw at him.

I obliged, but asked him if he would prefer me to use, in my own words, 'a normal punch', or the punch I prefered to employ, which is what this thread is about.

Well, he was curious about the latter, but we worked on the former first. What I found was that though he was expecting the jab almost everytime (I may not telegraph, but if you know the front jab is the only thing coming, it's not hard to predict, block or counter) and blocked that generally, this technique in the OP was, and could not be blocked by him. When training, a 1st dan should be able to go full force, full speed, and stop less than a millimeter from its target. Control, and precision. This translates to more than just hitting, however. It translates toward accuracy in getting our technique to the target, and when the entire point of a technique is just to get the hand positioned (such as this technique in the spearhand to only penetrate the guard, not make forceful contact) it is little surprise to me that it does, especially when that's what the technique has been designed to do... for this instance.

The relevance is that we're talking about stacking techniques, and we are acknowledging, or I suppose discussing, that there is a difference between chaining techniques, transitions, and combining. Some you can only do after great skill, while others are what you learn as a beginner or intermediate.

 

[Tez3]

In the back of my mind I thought that might be an issue, but I figured at the same time it's be like saying Wing Chun doesn't have good wristwork. Apologies, sometimes sarcasm comes off the exact opposite online, and then one looks like a fool. It happens.

Trust me, I am well aware of Muai Thai's ability to front kick. The Moo Duk Kwan I first learned was developed from Taekyon, which at least in terms of its strikes, I can't help but see great similarity between the kicking styles south of China. Pretty much anything in southern China, and below, had phenomenal kicking ability. I pay great respect toward muai thai, and highly recommend anyone who's learned or practiced the WTF variant of TKD to pursue study in Muai Thai to further their kicking ability (especially in terms of power).

God help the other person if they figure out how to incorporare chamber kicks (from say the vein of Shotokan). It's not fun for the other.



You're right. I can think of... one. The snap kick, and it's pretty much only good for ball shots, chin, and I suppose hands (elbow when not locked or bent. You know, hit it when it's smart and won't injure you for it). But I think what I spoke about is relevant, because we're talking about a technique which transitions from another technique, building on it, creating a different technique. For example, I worked with a silat practitioner about a week ago, and because I have particularly fast hands (im not bragging, im small, so I focus exclusively on developing this so I can compensate for the inequality) he asked if he could practice blocking jabs I threw at him.

I obliged, but asked him if he would prefer me to use, in my own words, 'a normal punch', or the punch I prefered to employ, which is what this thread is about.

Well, he was curious about the latter, but we worked on the former first. What I found was that though he was expecting the jab almost everytime (I may not telegraph, but if you know the front jab is the only thing coming, it's not hard to predict, block or counter) and blocked that generally, this technique in the OP was, and could not be blocked by him. When training, a 1st dan should be able to go full force, full speed, and stop less than a millimeter from its target. Control, and precision. This translates to more than just hitting, however. It translates toward accuracy in getting our technique to the target, and when the entire point of a technique is just to get the hand positioned (such as this technique in the spearhand to only penetrate the guard, not make forceful contact) it is little surprise to me that it does, especially when that's what the technique has been designed to do... for this instance.

The relevance is that we're talking about stacking techniques, and we are acknowledging, or I suppose discussing, that there is a difference between chaining techniques, transitions, and combining. Some you can only do after great skill, while others are what you learn as a beginner or intermediate.

I'm really hoping I'm not the only one who hasn't got the foggiest idea what you are talking about.

 

[Cyriacus]

In the back of my mind I thought that might be an issue, but I figured at the same time it's be like saying Wing Chun doesn't have good wristwork. Apologies, sometimes sarcasm comes off the exact opposite online, and then one looks like a fool. It happens.

Trust me, I am well aware of Muai Thai's ability to front kick.

I was actually being serious - Of course They have teeping, but I find it humorous to jab at them not using the things too much, as compared to circular kicks.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hello, I haven't posted in awhile, but I am hoping someone may be able to offer me insight.

Yes, keeping hand open until impact is a better way, increases ki flow.

Oh dear lord... should we just let these two discuss among themselves?

For the record, no, Doug, wrong. Opening on impact would be "better" for ki.

 

[Cyriacus]

Oh dear lord... should we just let these two discuss among themselves?

Yes.

 

[clfsean]

In the back of my mind I thought that might be an issue, but I figured at the same time it's be like saying Wing Chun doesn't have good wristwork. Apologies, sometimes sarcasm comes off the exact opposite online, and then one looks like a fool. It happens.

Trust me, I am well aware of Muai Thai's ability to front kick. The Moo Duk Kwan I first learned was developed from Taekyon, which at least in terms of its strikes, I can't help but see great similarity between the kicking styles south of China. Pretty much anything in southern China, and below, had phenomenal kicking ability. I pay great respect toward muai thai, and highly recommend anyone who's learned or practiced the WTF variant of TKD to pursue study in Muai Thai to further their kicking ability (especially in terms of power).

God help the other person if they figure out how to incorporare chamber kicks (from say the vein of Shotokan). It's not fun for the other.



You're right. I can think of... one. The snap kick, and it's pretty much only good for ball shots, chin, and I suppose hands (elbow when not locked or bent. You know, hit it when it's smart and won't injure you for it). But I think what I spoke about is relevant, because we're talking about a technique which transitions from another technique, building on it, creating a different technique. For example, I worked with a silat practitioner about a week ago, and because I have particularly fast hands (im not bragging, im small, so I focus exclusively on developing this so I can compensate for the inequality) he asked if he could practice blocking jabs I threw at him.

I obliged, but asked him if he would prefer me to use, in my own words, 'a normal punch', or the punch I prefered to employ, which is what this thread is about.

Well, he was curious about the latter, but we worked on the former first. What I found was that though he was expecting the jab almost everytime (I may not telegraph, but if you know the front jab is the only thing coming, it's not hard to predict, block or counter) and blocked that generally, this technique in the OP was, and could not be blocked by him. When training, a 1st dan should be able to go full force, full speed, and stop less than a millimeter from its target. Control, and precision. This translates to more than just hitting, however. It translates toward accuracy in getting our technique to the target, and when the entire point of a technique is just to get the hand positioned (such as this technique in the spearhand to only penetrate the guard, not make forceful contact) it is little surprise to me that it does, especially when that's what the technique has been designed to do... for this instance.

The relevance is that we're talking about stacking techniques, and we are acknowledging, or I suppose discussing, that there is a difference between chaining techniques, transitions, and combining. Some you can only do after great skill, while others are what you learn as a beginner or intermediate.

What ... Exactly ... Do you know or more likely, think you know, about southern CMA leg work?


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