Can anyone be a black belt??

[dancingalone]

The philosophy in the school where I train, is one that I have come to accept over time. A black belt indicates a student has fully reached a certain level of mental knowledge in TKD and has reached a physical level based on his or her actual capabilities and potential. In theory, a black belt should be able to win a fight against someone of their physicality with lesser training. It's not realistic to think that a 68 year old black belt is going to beat a 21 year old. Does that mean that the 68 year old should never earn his black belt? Personally, I don't think so. Having high standards is commendable but if only a small number of people, of a certain range of ages, can achieve them, then I would question if it's worth it. The analogy of a college degree is a bad one in my mind because that is mental knowledge and students are not held back by physical difficulties over which they have little or no control.

In the end, it depends on what you think a black belt means. For me, I am intentionally going against the feel good, martial arts is for everyone trend. I believe a black belt should indicate a measure of combat skill at a minimum. If you're a 68 year old who works hard but nonetheless can't fight your way out of a paper sack, sorry, that doesn't cut it for me.

Unpopular opinion, I know.

 

[celtic_crippler]

Sure can. For just $29.99
http://www.centurymartialarts.com/Martial_Arts_Belts/Black_Belt.aspx

Can anyone earn a black belt?

I think so. If you put in the blood, sweat, and tears necessary. It just depends on if you're willing to put the time and effort into it. You have to be disciplined, dedicated, and determined but it is possible.

 

[ATC]

Earl, do you have one or more torn ACL's, btw, I haven't had surgery. yes , gotta say TKD is also tough on the hips, anybody have suggestions as to minimize the hip damage/pain. mine hurt on the outside, guess its the hip bursa, or so says the orthopedic guy I've seen who told me I "had" to get surgery and couldn't continue TKD. Sorry for getting off topic

Yep. Hip and knee issues with me. But put off surgery if you can. Do a lot of therapy to make the muscles in each area as strong as possible. This requires daily exercises for each joint. If you can strengthen the muscles that surround the joints you will be amazed at the relief in pain.

 

[Steve]

I read several (over 200) martial arts blogs. Obviously,some get more of my attention than others. One I try to keep up with diligently is John Will's blog. He's one of the first 12 non Brazilian's to earn a black belt in BJJ and teaches in Australia. He is also an expert in Pentjak Silat and has trained TKD and Karate (although I can't remember which style).

He happened to write an article that I agree with completely, and speaks to this topic. Check it out. http://bjj-australia.blogspot.com/2009/06/higher-standard.html

His points about the lowering of the bar echo things I've said several times in multiple threads here.

 

[StuartA]

I think that the belt structure has been distorted and has largely lost all real meaning. "A black belt is just the beginning." Give me a break. That's called a cop out.

Like many, I don't believe everyone is capable of making BB*.. not in a decent school - by this I refer to the "average Jo" (as evaluating people with medical probs is a different kettle of fish IMO). In the grand scheme of things, as others have said, you can go buy one, but its worthless in reality.. BB represents a journey.. one not everyone is capable of making. Here is an article (posted before I think) on black belt status within TKD - how I see.

http://www.raynerslanetkd.com/ARTICLES_MakingofaBlackbelt.html

The Making of a Black Belt
‘It is good to have an end to journey towards, but it is the journey that matters in the end’
- Ursula K. Le Guin​

Apart from the main bulk of the book, there were a few sections at the end that were mainly my views on things and the one here is one that I received a lot of contact about, praising it for its honest view of things, so as it’s something many feel strongly about, I thought it appropriate to relay it here as it concerns all of us!​

When a student walks into a dojang they have this vision in their head, perhaps attained through television or films, or from the legendary stories of the masters, recited by their friends or read in books but no matter where it comes from, it is still the same – the dream of mastery of a martial art and a ‘Mcdojang’ instructor steals these dreams! ​

Parents bring their children to martial art classes for a myriad of reason, not least confidence and the same eventual dreams as the adults – maybe it’s a parents wishful thinking, but there is no reason their children cannot grow up and mature into competent and capable martial artists. The problem is parents have no bench mark as they often start their children in the first martial art school they come across as they believe that every black belt is a master, every black belt is a great instructor and every black belt will guide and shape their child into a competent and capable martial artists – only someone who has been round the block or dared to venture further afield than their own
school knows this isn’t the case! My advice to parents these days, unfortunately, is to shop around and to do a lot of shopping!​

I had a parent of a student call me once, saying she was unhappy with her present school as the instructor was charging more and more each time. He changed the uniforms every six months, forcing the students to buy the new ones and sold them equipment when they joined that they had never used! The final straw for this parent was the instructor trying to make her sign a new three year contract into the ‘masters club’ for her son, who was six years old! Incidentally, this club costs £600 per year more than the Black belt club, which was £600 a year more than the non-black belt club members paid! I felt a little sorry for the parent, knowing she had been sold by the sales hype, so I invited her down to the school as she wanted and asked her what grade her son was – to which she replied he’s a black belt! I was shocked, but nevertheless intrigued as to what qualities a six year old black belt would have. The parent was most concerned with her six year old retaining his grade and I had to bite my lip!​

The parent turned up and this young black belt bounded into my class full of confidence, but as the class started the warm-up session he seemed concerned, looking around for his mother, eventually, before we had even finished this section he started to cry as he was completely out of his depth and this was just the warm up. After sobbing for a bit, he went to his mum for a cuddle and I asked her what he did to achieve his black belt, she said he had to do some combinations, punch some pads and show some kicks. I ask what patterns he learnt and she asked what was a pattern! Upon explaining, she said he hadn’t learn any as it wasn’t required for his age! Suffice to say, he never returned to my school. His former club had indeed given him something, they gave him a black belt he didn’t earn, that didn’t have any worth except to his parents pride (however misplaced it was), but worst of all they gave him bucket loads of false confidence that was taken away the minute he stepped out of that school into the real world of martial arts!​

This is not an isolated case as many other parents have been sold similar things, with these unscrupulous instructors pandering to the parents and students ego’s, by waving a black belt in front of them and letting them know just how achievable it is, as long as they pay the right price! Adults have been fooled in the same way as well, though they are more capable of handling the fact that they have been sold a dud and usually blame themselves for not doing their research properly in the first place and some, even if not all, are resolute about learning proper martial arts, so are content to start over. These students I hold in the highest regard, it is not an easy thing to admit and even harder to do – these students have the right spirit, one that can really take them where they want to go! ​

Students reasons for starting a martial art and then sticking with it can change over time and are varied, but every student, who attains the lofty rank of black belts wishes and hopes, at least initially, to be worthy of the grade, after all ‘the clothes maketh the man’ and so in Taekwon-do, ‘the belt maketh the student’ so the worth of that belt needs to be maintained.​

Once a black belt held much worth, simply because it was only obtainable with diligence and hard training. Now it is seen as obtainable by anyone, even with little effort, but more so as part of the schools ethos or part of their advertising campaign as long as they turn up and pay their money! A black belt should never be guaranteed, it is a celebration of blood, sweat and tears, of over coming many obstacles and a celebration of passing into the next phase of Taekwon-do training. The fork in a tough hard road that is meant to represent the wearer being ‘Impervious to darkness and fear` - a road that many are simply not capable of travelling (well actually they are, but it’s a damn hard trek)! Its worth has been devalued.​

Though some argue that Taekwon-do places a different emphasis on what a black belt means, as do some other arts, but one only has to think back to when they began Taekwon-do and think what a black belt seemed to them, whether correct or not this is actually what it should mean (or at least pretty close to it). I sincerely doubt that any beginner has thought of a black belt grade as lacking in knowledge or skills, or not being able the perform ‘black belty’ type things! I guess the essence is that in my mind at least, a black belt should have three attributes:​

1. Knowledge in the areas related to the dan grade and skills at a certain level in applying that knowledge
2. A certain mental toughness fostered from many years of hard training
3. The ability to ‘hang’ with others of equal grade. By that I mean at all areas they should be roughly equal. There will always be students who can break more than others, or spar faster etc. But no black belt should look way out of their depth in any areas next to a fellow dan grade.​

All three of these areas have been eroded over time, as clubs, instructors and associations give away black belts to one and all, claiming to make the black belt more accessible or simply ignoring what it originally represented to them, but its really an exercise of increasing numbers or not losing students income and the one who loses in the end, is actually the student who placed their faith and hope in you to begin with!​

A black belts worth shouldn’t be bought but should be affordable by all, affordable by way of hard work, sweat, tears and perhaps even a little blood on occasion – as these are the traits and trials of hard endeavours and nothing of any value comes easy. By making the road to black belt, a hard though not impossible journey, we can retain its value and its worth – though I feel it may be a little too late for that, but as Gandhi once said ‘You must be the change you wish to see in the world’ so I for one will keep on keeping on!​

Within Taekwon-do some feel that the black belt is simply a representation of someone who has a good grasp of the basics of our art and even though what actually represents the basics is debateable, some do not even seem to have done that in order to gain the right to wear the black belt around their waist. But even then, saying it simply represents the basics doesn’t relate to the meaning of black belt in Taekwon-do, which says the wearer should be‘ impervious to darkness and fear’ – how many six year olds feel like that? In my mind, simply having a grasp of the basics doesn’t correlate to being impervious to darkness and fear, which takes me back to the aforementioned 3 attributes that should make a black belt! And that to me is just the minimum requirements in my mind, to me there is more to being a black belt than just that, but that’s a whole new discussion!​

Reproduced from the book “Ch’ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul: Real Applications To The ITF Patterns” ​

 

[terryl965]

Like many, I don't believe everyone is capable of making BB*.. not in a decent school - by this I refer to the "average Jo" (as evaluating people with medical probs is a different kettle of fish IMO). In the grand scheme of things, as others have said, you can go buy one, but its worthless in reality.. BB represents a journey.. one not everyone is capable of making. Here is an article (posted before I think) on black belt status within TKD - how I see.

http://www.raynerslanetkd.com/ARTICLES_MakingofaBlackbelt.html

The Making of a Black Belt
‘It is good to have an end to journey towards, but it is the journey that matters in the end’
- Ursula K. Le Guin​

Apart from the main bulk of the book, there were a few sections at the end that were mainly my views on things and the one here is one that I received a lot of contact about, praising it for its honest view of things, so as it’s something many feel strongly about, I thought it appropriate to relay it here as it concerns all of us!​

When a student walks into a dojang they have this vision in their head, perhaps attained through television or films, or from the legendary stories of the masters, recited by their friends or read in books but no matter where it comes from, it is still the same – the dream of mastery of a martial art and a ‘Mcdojang’ instructor steals these dreams! ​

Parents bring their children to martial art classes for a myriad of reason, not least confidence and the same eventual dreams as the adults – maybe it’s a parents wishful thinking, but there is no reason their children cannot grow up and mature into competent and capable martial artists. The problem is parents have no bench mark as they often start their children in the first martial art school they come across as they believe that every black belt is a master, every black belt is a great instructor and every black belt will guide and shape their child into a competent and capable martial artists – only someone who has been round the block or dared to venture further afield than their own
school knows this isn’t the case! My advice to parents these days, unfortunately, is to shop around and to do a lot of shopping!​

I had a parent of a student call me once, saying she was unhappy with her present school as the instructor was charging more and more each time. He changed the uniforms every six months, forcing the students to buy the new ones and sold them equipment when they joined that they had never used! The final straw for this parent was the instructor trying to make her sign a new three year contract into the ‘masters club’ for her son, who was six years old! Incidentally, this club costs £600 per year more than the Black belt club, which was £600 a year more than the non-black belt club members paid! I felt a little sorry for the parent, knowing she had been sold by the sales hype, so I invited her down to the school as she wanted and asked her what grade her son was – to which she replied he’s a black belt! I was shocked, but nevertheless intrigued as to what qualities a six year old black belt would have. The parent was most concerned with her six year old retaining his grade and I had to bite my lip!​

The parent turned up and this young black belt bounded into my class full of confidence, but as the class started the warm-up session he seemed concerned, looking around for his mother, eventually, before we had even finished this section he started to cry as he was completely out of his depth and this was just the warm up. After sobbing for a bit, he went to his mum for a cuddle and I asked her what he did to achieve his black belt, she said he had to do some combinations, punch some pads and show some kicks. I ask what patterns he learnt and she asked what was a pattern! Upon explaining, she said he hadn’t learn any as it wasn’t required for his age! Suffice to say, he never returned to my school. His former club had indeed given him something, they gave him a black belt he didn’t earn, that didn’t have any worth except to his parents pride (however misplaced it was), but worst of all they gave him bucket loads of false confidence that was taken away the minute he stepped out of that school into the real world of martial arts!​

This is not an isolated case as many other parents have been sold similar things, with these unscrupulous instructors pandering to the parents and students ego’s, by waving a black belt in front of them and letting them know just how achievable it is, as long as they pay the right price! Adults have been fooled in the same way as well, though they are more capable of handling the fact that they have been sold a dud and usually blame themselves for not doing their research properly in the first place and some, even if not all, are resolute about learning proper martial arts, so are content to start over. These students I hold in the highest regard, it is not an easy thing to admit and even harder to do – these students have the right spirit, one that can really take them where they want to go! ​

Students reasons for starting a martial art and then sticking with it can change over time and are varied, but every student, who attains the lofty rank of black belts wishes and hopes, at least initially, to be worthy of the grade, after all ‘the clothes maketh the man’ and so in Taekwon-do, ‘the belt maketh the student’ so the worth of that belt needs to be maintained.​

Once a black belt held much worth, simply because it was only obtainable with diligence and hard training. Now it is seen as obtainable by anyone, even with little effort, but more so as part of the schools ethos or part of their advertising campaign as long as they turn up and pay their money! A black belt should never be guaranteed, it is a celebration of blood, sweat and tears, of over coming many obstacles and a celebration of passing into the next phase of Taekwon-do training. The fork in a tough hard road that is meant to represent the wearer being ‘Impervious to darkness and fear` - a road that many are simply not capable of travelling (well actually they are, but it’s a damn hard trek)! Its worth has been devalued.​

Though some argue that Taekwon-do places a different emphasis on what a black belt means, as do some other arts, but one only has to think back to when they began Taekwon-do and think what a black belt seemed to them, whether correct or not this is actually what it should mean (or at least pretty close to it). I sincerely doubt that any beginner has thought of a black belt grade as lacking in knowledge or skills, or not being able the perform ‘black belty’ type things! I guess the essence is that in my mind at least, a black belt should have three attributes:​

1. Knowledge in the areas related to the dan grade and skills at a certain level in applying that knowledge
2. A certain mental toughness fostered from many years of hard training
3. The ability to ‘hang’ with others of equal grade. By that I mean at all areas they should be roughly equal. There will always be students who can break more than others, or spar faster etc. But no black belt should look way out of their depth in any areas next to a fellow dan grade.​

All three of these areas have been eroded over time, as clubs, instructors and associations give away black belts to one and all, claiming to make the black belt more accessible or simply ignoring what it originally represented to them, but its really an exercise of increasing numbers or not losing students income and the one who loses in the end, is actually the student who placed their faith and hope in you to begin with!​

A black belts worth shouldn’t be bought but should be affordable by all, affordable by way of hard work, sweat, tears and perhaps even a little blood on occasion – as these are the traits and trials of hard endeavours and nothing of any value comes easy. By making the road to black belt, a hard though not impossible journey, we can retain its value and its worth – though I feel it may be a little too late for that, but as Gandhi once said ‘You must be the change you wish to see in the world’ so I for one will keep on keeping on!​

Within Taekwon-do some feel that the black belt is simply a representation of someone who has a good grasp of the basics of our art and even though what actually represents the basics is debateable, some do not even seem to have done that in order to gain the right to wear the black belt around their waist. But even then, saying it simply represents the basics doesn’t relate to the meaning of black belt in Taekwon-do, which says the wearer should be‘ impervious to darkness and fear’ – how many six year olds feel like that? In my mind, simply having a grasp of the basics doesn’t correlate to being impervious to darkness and fear, which takes me back to the aforementioned 3 attributes that should make a black belt! And that to me is just the minimum requirements in my mind, to me there is more to being a black belt than just that, but that’s a whole new discussion!​

Reproduced from the book “Ch’ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul: Real Applications To The ITF Patterns” ​

This should be posted at every school.

 

[Steve]

I agree with that article, but always feel a bit like these extreme examples are used to obfuscate a more pervasive problem. Take the example posted by Manny where, "... a 20 years old guy who has cerebral palsy since he was a baby earned his black belt afther so many years of hard work, Julio (the name of the guy) has fought all these years with his ill, he can't do jumping/spining kicks but he's so dedicated and train so good and put his heart in TKD that he had his black belt, he's a truly warrior believe me, almost all people in the dojan cried in tears when sambuim tied his black belt on Julio's waist." This story is more typical of the lowering of the bar and the altering of the definition of black belt.

While this is a very inspirational story, unless Julio had accomplished the entire curriculum and mastered the requisite skill set, there is no way he should have been awarded his Black Belt. It's easy for everyone to look at a 6 year old BB and agree that it's absurd. The real lowering of the bar, however, is more subtle and involves a shift in the definition of a black belt. I cringe whenever I hear that a black belt is an "advanced beginner" or is now "ready to begin learning."

References to television and movies are disengenuous because 30 years ago, a black belt WAS an expert. While the choreography of a fight scene has always been with an eye toward the hyperbole, the definitions of expert, master and black belt were consistent with everything I've ever learned about the guys who actually trained at that time. It's the martial arts industry that has systematically redefined black belt and morphed the rank structure into something more marketable and less meaningful.

I will admit, though, that I get a kick out of staunch right wing guys who subscribe to these philosophies, as they smack of charity and touchy/feely political correctness to me. I am glad that guys like TwinFist and others don't go in for it.

 

[Gordon Nore]

Anyone who wants it enough to train regularly, pay their fees, if applicable, and stand up to a test. I think the rank should mean something, but it doesn't have to be exclusionary to have meaning. I'm without a doubt the least able of the black belts in my school, but I put in 11 years of training and made my way through a three-hour test at the age of almost forty-six.

To put it another way, What do you call someone who got D's in med school?

 

[terryl965]

Anyone who wants it enough to train regularly, pay their fees, if applicable, and stand up to a test. I think the rank should mean something, but it doesn't have to be exclusionary to have meaning. I'm without a doubt the least able of the black belts in my school, but I put in 11 years of training and made my way through a three-hour test at the age of almost forty-six.

To put it another way, What do you call someone who got D's in med school?

A doctor just like the ones that got all A's.

 

[dancingalone]

Anyone who wants it enough to train regularly, pay their fees, if applicable, and stand up to a test. I think the rank should mean something, but it doesn't have to be exclusionary to have meaning. I'm without a doubt the least able of the black belts in my school, but I put in 11 years of training and made my way through a three-hour test at the age of almost forty-six.

To put it another way, What do you call someone who got D's in med school?

Presumably someone who got all D's in med school wouldn't be able to pass the licensing tests for their state or province, Gordon. I'm not saying every black belt has to be a Chuck Norris, but let's be credible when awarding ranks. When I see a TKD black belt, I want to see some real snap in their kicks with good form. They should know all their patterns and have some clue defending against common attacks like a grab or a head lock. This seems like a reasonable position to me.

 

[Twin Fist]

me too

 

[Steve]

A doctor just like the ones that got all A's.

While it was clear that Gordon was looking for this answer, the first thing that came to mind was "unlicensed quack."

Seriously, though, the point being that the doctor got D's... but completed the curriculum fully. That's the key. What do you call the really nice guy who, in spite of numerous personal obstacles, continued to attend medical school for 11 years but failed to graduate?

Now, I know that in real life this person would eventually be released from the program, but the point remains. If a person dedicates him or herself to something, that doesn't mean he or she will acheive excellence. If a black belt is the apex of the ranking structure, then it should continue to be meaningful. Not exclusionary, but exclusive. Where exclusionary implies bias or arbitrary bigotry, exclusivity points to fixed standards.

And once again, this in no way diminishes the value of the activity. Learning to play a musical instrument, learning a martial art or learning to play a sport (or whatever else) is beneficial in so many ways. We are teaching each other and our children a very damaging lesson when we insist that something isn't worth doing if you can't acheive the highest rank or be the best.

I'd be very interested to know what Julio's black belt means to him. What do the people who teared up in the audience think it means? What does the 6 year old think his black belt means? What about his parents?

Twinfist and Dancingalone, don't you think that "some idea of how to defend" is an understatement? Shouldn't someone who is likely teaching others and very possibly charging money for it be a bone fide expert in the style?

 

[dancingalone]

Twinfist and Dancingalone, don't you think that "some idea of how to defend" is an understatement? Shouldn't someone who is likely teaching others and very possibly charging money for it be a bone fide expert in the style?

This might be the case in BJJ where you are an instructor at purple belt, right? In TKD, I don't expect every black belt to be teaching necessarily. A dan rank should be a measure of skill and of knowledge though. It IS unusual to see someone make 3rd dan (outside of the McDojo orgs) however and not be an instructor however.

 

[Steve]

This might be the case in BJJ where you are an instructor at purple belt, right? In TKD, I don't expect every black belt to be teaching necessarily. A dan rank should be a measure of skill and of knowledge though. It IS unusual to see someone make 3rd dan (outside of the McDojo orgs) however and not be an instructor however.

It's not unheard of to find schools where the head instructor is a purple belt, but it's becoming increasingly rare. This was a lot more uncommon in years past, where a purple belt might be the highest ranking person in a given area. Often, they were very experienced and were really legitimate brown or even black belts, but didn't train under anyone who could promote them.

The main thing, though, is that even at purple belt, these guys are experts.

 

[dancingalone]

The main thing, though, is that even at purple belt, these guys are experts.

I think we're actually agreeing, Steve. A black belt in TKD should be very solid and knowledgeble about his system with some real skill applicable in physical assault situations. I don't expect him to be able to go toe-to-toe full contact with another trained fighter, but he should present himself well. In other words, a complete outsider to the martial arts should be able to look at him on the floor and pick him out as a black belt compared to the color belt grades.

 

[Twin Fist]

Twinfist and Dancingalone, don't you think that "some idea of how to defend" is an understatement? Shouldn't someone who is likely teaching others and very possibly charging money for it be a bone fide expert in the style?

I would expect that out of one of my INTERMEADIATE students, by Brown, they had better be able to DO it, and by black, to TEACH it.

but then, I am an odd duck.

I would promote someone to BB that couldnt do a jump spinning kick, even tho that is part of the requirements. As long as they had a good reason why they cant. bad knees, arthritis, whatever. IF all their other skills were BB level.

I dont expect a 1st Dan to be an Expert at TKD, I expect them to be an expert at the material they have learned.

I dont care if your school only requires 10 one steps, 10 kicks, 10 punches and no kata, if you can perform the material at BB level, you are a BB as far as I am concerned.

I worry far more about SKILL level than amount of knowledge.

but then i am an odd duck

 

[Steve]

I think we're actually agreeing, Steve. A black belt in TKD should be very solid and knowledgeble about his system with some real skill applicable in physical assault situations. I don't expect him to be able to go toe-to-toe full contact with another trained fighter, but he should present himself well. In other words, a complete outsider to the martial arts should be able to look at him on the floor and pick him out as a black belt compared to the color belt grades.

Absolutely. I think we're on the same page... at least in the same chapter!

I would expect that out of one of my INTERMEADIATE students, by Brown, they had better be able to DO it, and by black, to TEACH it.

but then, I am an odd duck.

I would promote someone to BB that couldnt do a jump spinning kick, even tho that is part of the requirements. As long as they had a good reason why they cant. bad knees, arthritis, whatever. IF all their other skills were BB level.

That is weird, Twinfist, and honestly, I didn't expect that from you. At what point have you fudged your standards too low? What's the bar? If I'm on crutches and can't kick, but I can punch at a black belt level, would you give me my black belt even though I'm only able to perform half the curriculum? What if I can perform forms at a black belt level with terrific skill, but can't spar because I have a heart condition?

I'm all for practicality, but in TKD one of the measures is a concrete curriculum. Right? In BJJ, one of the things I appreciate is that everyone builds their own game based upon their own abilities. That said, there IS a bar and it's relatively consistent. At least for now. Relative skill and ability will be within the same range for a blue belt from most any school. Same for a purple, brown or black belt.

One of the reasons I'm interested in this topic is that I know a guy locally who trained at my school for about 2 years and received his blue belt. He left my school in February as a 2 stripe blue belt and is now a 3 stripe purple belt who I've heard will be a brown belt before the end of Summer. It's irritating, but as a community, I'm very interested in what happens next. How do we avoid the pitfalls of mcdojos and rank inflation?

 

[Twin Fist]

depends

fighting is non-negotioable. A jump spinning kick which is useless anyway? i dont care about that.

strong kata but you cant fight? i cant help you. Fight ok but cant kick high, we can talk about that one.

I guess the easiest way to sum it up would be "is this person still able to defend themselves at a BB level despite thier physical limitations?"

if yes, then yes, if no, then no.


I think a concrete curriculum is a pipe dream. It's a nice goal, but it doesnt reflect reality. Perfect example, Joe Lewis. he came back from okinawa knowing a horse stance, a reverse punch, and a side kick.

thats ALL

but

he KNEW them, and could land them AT WILL on anyone. He was a BB as far as I am concerned.

what i will NOT fudge on is 'can they defend themselves?" and that is more important than any curriculum

 

[Steve]

what i will NOT fudge on is 'can they defend themselves?" and that is more important than any curriculum

There you go. That's a practical standard that I can get behind and one that would keep a lot of people who have black belts from wearing them.