But could you use it as a weapon?

[tellner]

It's always better to use the right tool for the job. The improvised ones are just that, improvised field expedients, second or third best. Their saving grace is that they are there at hand when you need them. Of course a gun or a sword or a spear would be better. These are simply somewhat better than nothing. And they beat the hell out of screaming for help.

The exceptions are the tools you use every day. If you are a carpenter you already have perfect body mechanics with that roofing hammer. A cook? Nobody has **** to teach you about how to use a knife.

To answer your other question, I've trained with a lot of weapons including some pretty unconvenctional ones. I'm reasonably confident that I could make the expedient ones work pretty well. But a lot of people haven't and are just kind of hoping that it would magically work out. Take the classic keys between the fingers. Have any of the people who talk about that tried it on something approximating a real target? How badly torn up were their hand afterwards. Could any of them hit with any real impact and have the keys stay more or less straight? Not one in a thousand who says he would rely on that has actually practiced it even once?

 

[Carol]

Take the classic keys between the fingers. Have any of the people who talk about that tried it on something approximating a real target? How badly torn up were their hand afterwards. Could any of them hit with any real impact and have the keys stay more or less straight? Not one in a thousand who says he would rely on that has actually practiced it even once?

That's actually one of the reasons why I don't prefer to count on my keys as weapons.

The other reason is...I'd rather give up the entire contents of my purse than give up my keys (I don't carry my keys in my purse unless I have to). Keys can offer me a chance to get to safety. Not having keys can leave me stranded or locked out....both very bad situations for personal safety.

 

[jdinca]

It's always better to use the right tool for the job. The improvised ones are just that, improvised field expedients, second or third best. Their saving grace is that they are there at hand when you need them. Of course a gun or a sword or a spear would be better. These are simply somewhat better than nothing. And they beat the hell out of screaming for help.

The exceptions are the tools you use every day. If you are a carpenter you already have perfect body mechanics with that roofing hammer. A cook? Nobody has **** to teach you about how to use a knife.

To answer your other question, I've trained with a lot of weapons including some pretty unconvenctional ones. I'm reasonably confident that I could make the expedient ones work pretty well. But a lot of people haven't and are just kind of hoping that it would magically work out. Take the classic keys between the fingers. Have any of the people who talk about that tried it on something approximating a real target? How badly torn up were their hand afterwards. Could any of them hit with any real impact and have the keys stay more or less straight? Not one in a thousand who says he would rely on that has actually practiced it even once?

All quite true. I think what's important is that a person doesn't rely on these improvised weapons for true self defense but more as an adjunct and as a deterrent. For the average person, a set of keys may, or may not help. But for a martial artist to use keys to me means having a way to distract your attacker so that you can put something else you know into use. Rakes the keys across the face and while the attacker is focusing on you attacking his face with keys, make his knee bend the wrong way.

It's a mindset thing.

 

[Kacey]

Take the classic keys between the fingers. Have any of the people who talk about that tried it on something approximating a real target? How badly torn up were their hand afterwards. Could any of them hit with any real impact and have the keys stay more or less straight? Not one in a thousand who says he would rely on that has actually practiced it even once?

I have... bearing in mind that my keys have plastic covers on the non-key end (they all look alike) and the target I was using was ripped up - and I wasn't. Also, I would be much more likely to slash with keys than punch, although I would do that too, if need be.

 

[thardey]

Anything from a fluffy teddy bear to a sock and a bar of soap. The Christians' Book says "To the pure all things are pure." My Book says "To the bloody minded anything is a weapon." Within arm's reach right now let me see what I could use...

We also have a saying: "When your only tool is a hammer, all of your problems begin to look like nails."

The computer. My wife's isoflex hand exerciser. Pens. A coffee cup. Staples, a stock. A rolled up paperback book. The aforementioned stuffed animal. A chair. A soapstone statue. A credit card. My keys, which are on a two foot chain. A prayer rug. A box of business cards. Rocks. Dissection kit....

Yep. All of those.

What? Is everything cordless? A nice bit of telephone/mouse/power chord, could be verrry handy in a grappling situation as a garrotte.

Do sign posts, trees, sidewalks, or street traffic count as weapons if you bounce somebody off of them?

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Telephone handsets (the old fashioned ones) were great weapons. Ask any cop who ever went to a domestic call. My uncle told me a story about a guy who got tuned up pretty good with one once.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Well, we all know there are many things that can be used, but would you know how to deploy and would you be less likely to hurt someone with an improvised weapon than a real one?

Depends.

I train with impact weapons all the time, and I change the mass and size, so picking up something for me and using it randomly is not a big deal. But the issue is I have exposure to these and think about them and practice with them.

Right now if I was carrying a gun a knife or a pen, I probably would opt for the Pen, unless there were weapons that warrented other weapons I was carrying. But even then my experience with deploying a firearm under stress is not there. (* Yes I admit my weak points *) It would not be my first thought. Hence why I am training with one, to make sure it is an equal thopught option depending upon the situation.

 

[MaartenSFS]

Well, we all know there are many things that can be used, but would you know how to deploy and would you be less likely to hurt someone with an improvised weapon than a real one?

That depends on how you train. For my Bagunshu system I have developed an extensive variety of training methods. My favourite is to go up to the roof and hand up between 1 and 3kg bags (Made from blue jeans = STRONG) with hard little beans inside and then push them so that they start moving and try to "kill" the nearest one on the draw, before "finishing off" the rest. I like to hang them up at different levels. I also sometimes ask my wife to hang them up or get them moving in different ways with my eyes closed and then when she says go just attack everything I see. You can try this training method in many different ways. For example, you ask a friend to put random "weapons" in different places and then start the bags swinging. When you open your eyes you must first collect a weapon, afterwhich proceeding with the attack. This training method is excellent.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=SqgWxnGyW3w&search=kung fu training

Also see this for a more spontaneous training method (Though it isn't necessary to be so vocal about it).

 

[MaartenSFS]

Interesting concept, and I have no doubts that a telescoping baton can be a great defensive melee weapon.

Unfortunately, here in the USA, most states highly restrict telescoping batons, and the penalties of carrying one unlawfully can be rather dire, indeed.

This is why folding lockback knives are generally preferred, since almost every state allows you to carry such a knife as long as you don't exceed some maximum blade length in some places (3" in South Carolina, for example, no limits in Alabama, etc).

Despite what the "LAW" says, I can relate to you something that my Qinna teacher said (He also carries a small baton): "The law favours criminals. Law-abiding citisens are at a disadvantage. When they [Criminals] stop carrying, so will I."

Anyways, how will people spot a well-conceiled baton? When mine is collapsed it is only 22.5cm long. It can easily fit into my pocket. For me the question isn't about carrying, it is about my self-control on when and where to draw it. In some situations just drawing the baton (In the normal non-quick draw fashion) is enough to intimidate any would-be attackers. Seeing a long piece of shiny steel emerge from someone's trousers is not exacty encouraging to an attacker. Compare that to a pen. If they have a knife, you're ****ed.

 

[KenpoTex]

Thankfully, because of my location and CCW, I can carry pretty much anything.

For the times that I can't or when recommending improvised weapons for someone else, my favorites are small flashlights (Surefire E2D, mini Mag-light, Inova X-5, etc.) or big Sharpie markers.

I tell my students that if an object is small/light enough to easily pick up, I can hit with, stab with, or throw it. If it's too heavy, or immovable, I can propel the bad guy into it (tables, railings, telephone poles, etc.)

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Great youtube vid on improvised weapons HERE.

 

[MJS]

Well, we all know there are many things that can be used, but would you know how to deploy and would you be less likely to hurt someone with an improvised weapon than a real one?

IMO, it all comes down to training with the weapon at hand. As for injury...I suppose it would come down to what the weapon was and how you used it. If I pick up a rock, I can throw it, but it may not cause as much damage as if I started hitting the person repeatedly on the head with it.

Mike

 

[MJS]

All quite true. I think what's important is that a person doesn't rely on these improvised weapons for true self defense but more as an adjunct and as a deterrent. For the average person, a set of keys may, or may not help. But for a martial artist to use keys to me means having a way to distract your attacker so that you can put something else you know into use. Rakes the keys across the face and while the attacker is focusing on you attacking his face with keys, make his knee bend the wrong way.

It's a mindset thing.

Exactly!!! Well said and my thoughts exactly.

Mike

 

[tellner]

All quite true. I think what's important is that a person doesn't rely on these improvised weapons for true self defense but more as an adjunct and as a deterrent. For the average person, a set of keys may, or may not help. But for a martial artist to use keys to me means having a way to distract your attacker so that you can put something else you know into use. Rakes the keys across the face and while the attacker is focusing on you attacking his face with keys, make his knee bend the wrong way.

It's a mindset thing.

I'd modify that a bit. Granted, the improvised ones tend to be second choice over tools specifically designed as weapons. But you can put a serious hurt on someone with one. One example that comes to mind is Platypus Boy. It is a testament to the insanity of the United States Army that he was given a commission and command of troops in Iraq. But command he does, and he has developed quite a nose for ambushes. His preferred weapon is a short-barrelled Mossberg 590 loaded with Remington Solid Copper slugs. He says that nobody he has shot with one of those has ever gotten up again.

Anyhow, in a supposedly safe area someone set off warning bells. PB didn't have a firearm. All he had was a five gallon bucket. He beat the guy - who was wearing a vest bomb - to death with it. I'd say he did a bit better than "distract" although I will grant that the attempted bomber was one distracted mother****er for a few seconds right there at the end

 

[MaartenSFS]

I'd modify that a bit. Granted, the improvised ones tend to be second choice over tools specifically designed as weapons. But you can put a serious hurt on someone with one. One example that comes to mind is Platypus Boy. It is a testament to the insanity of the United States Army that he was given a commission and command of troops in Iraq. But command he does, and he has developed quite a nose for ambushes. His preferred weapon is a short-barrelled Mossberg 590 loaded with Remington Solid Copper slugs. He says that nobody he has shot with one of those has ever gotten up again.

Anyhow, in a supposedly safe area someone set off warning bells. PB didn't have a firearm. All he had was a five gallon bucket. He beat the guy - who was wearing a vest bomb - to death with it. I'd say he did a bit better than "distract" although I will grant that the attempted bomber was one distracted mother****er for a few seconds right there at the end

That's quite bad-****, but who in the Hell is "Platypus Boy" and who named him?

 

[tellner]

Platypus Boy is the nickname of an acquaintance of mine, currently a First Lieutenant in the United States Army.

 

[jdinca]

I'd modify that a bit. Granted, the improvised ones tend to be second choice over tools specifically designed as weapons. But you can put a serious hurt on someone with one. One example that comes to mind is Platypus Boy. It is a testament to the insanity of the United States Army that he was given a commission and command of troops in Iraq. But command he does, and he has developed quite a nose for ambushes. His preferred weapon is a short-barrelled Mossberg 590 loaded with Remington Solid Copper slugs. He says that nobody he has shot with one of those has ever gotten up again.

Anyhow, in a supposedly safe area someone set off warning bells. PB didn't have a firearm. All he had was a five gallon bucket. He beat the guy - who was wearing a vest bomb - to death with it. I'd say he did a bit better than "distract" although I will grant that the attempted bomber was one distracted mother****er for a few seconds right there at the end

That's a great story! I agree with your modification.

 

[DavidCC]

I once heard a story of Ed Parker and a "salt shaker" form LOL demonstrating that, with proper understanding, no weapons are needed becasue everything is a weapon - an extension of your own body.

 

[Em MacIntosh]

Some guy picked a fight with me so I invited outside. I held the door open for him and slammed it on him three times as he walked through it. Then I kicked him a lot.

 

[tellner]

Damn, Ed. That was really low. It was unfair. It was dishonorable. You didn't stand up and fight him man-to-man according to the Principles of Bushido.

My hat's off to you, and while I wouldn't like you at my back at a party I'd be glad to have you at my back in a fight. You sure you're not really one of those nasty treacherous Silat players?